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Thread: The Zen of Wave Riding

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    The Zen of Wave Riding

    Now before anyone gets all up-at-me, this is not the hippity-hop that got one of Waynan brothers smacked about the mouth several times in that one hysterical movie with Tom Hanks in and I do not mean the trashy Dan Brown slapstick strawman abbreviated due to my absolute disgust with it. (D.C.) Instead this is more losely associated with the Zen of Motorcycle Mechanics, it is however not even Zen, I just like the idea of associating my idea about Wave Riding and it's variables and the title from which I leant my title which might or might not have nothing to do with what I am thinking about.

    So what is this o.p. about ?

    I was reading some threads that have arisen on the forum over the last while and noticed a difficulty that some have in either speaking of or relating to others identified loosely as Ariminians. (However, they were called Baptists, and well I suppose according to that line of thinking one gets all sorts of people from numerous religious backgrounds, that might losely be termed as being Arminians. I am not sure that the term is in the Scriptures, but that is where I am jumping into the surf as it were.....have a little patience...all shall me revealed...in time...I hope )

    Now in the form of a parable:

    The seas have waves and to a surfer, a wave is what the sea is meant to produce or else it is a day that one rather stays home or does something else. Surfers can be divided into many categories... here are few... bodyboarders, or boogieboarders, short board, long board, barge, windsurfer and wooooosh the turbo sort of jetskiers, but the big thing for them is waves, and ofcourse do not forget those that use paddles.

    Now for the sake of my idea to work; let us say that the water and the waves represent 'regeneration' and that those on dry land are not yet regenerated. For me this has somewhat and amusing memory, of water batism in the ocean. Anyhow that is not where we are headed, I am thinking not of the error of doctrine, namely baptisimal regeneration, that would be equivalent in this article to going home and swimming in the bath and saying you had been to the beach.

    So what am I attempting to say....once again..please have patience I am attempting to remove a bee sting of judgment that I read ..... about here and not only here... it seems to be a problem Christians have with each other... I am not trying to support Ecumenism or some sort of Christian Unity, it is just the matter of using the term Arminian to isolate brothers and sisters away from oneself into a corner.

    The way I see my example of wave riding. Arminians are sort of like, oh yeah I forgot my example for arminians, they are like 'body surfers' they do it entirely in their own strength, and well let's just say they get a moderate thrill, but normally only get as far in as the first set, no big waves for them, then on the oppossite extreme are the double head presbyterians, I mean predestinarians, who ride on the wooooosh jetski, there is a slight modification I thought of, Jesus is riding the jetski and they are sitting pinion with their surf board and well you guessed it ... God does it ALL.

    Inbetween are the variations on the theme. Use your own imagination for that I did and found myself chuckling away as I waited for my wife to emerge with the shopping this morning....

    I just want to end in saying that if you want to say that people who use the mode of Arminianism in their walk with Christ are going to hell, you had better watch out that you don't open a whirlpool that swallow everyone including yourself. Having started off, 'on the beach' lost....and having been regenerated, introduced to the surf, having tried the body surfing and "arminian modal self propulsion" and found I got pretty tired, and then going into the surf with a boogie board and flippers, Calminian, big board, a short board, then a wind surfer and finally jumping on the jetski with Jesus and getting the biggest surf on the planet.....I am trying to learn patience with my brothers in sisters for who Christ died, but who feel it neccessary to ride it by themselves... I pray I have not made this even more confusing....


    Wooooooosh there I go with Jesus on the Jetski...........

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    Re: The Zen of Wave Riding

    The way I understand arminian , A person that believes that Christ died for every individual in the world, and now it`s up to you to either accept or reject him ( as your savior) and that determines if you get saved.

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    Re: The Zen of Wave Riding



    Wooooooosh....... (Just could not resist this....it is winter here at the moment, oh the joys of summer surf...)

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    Re: The Zen of Wave Riding

    We all body surfed for a time, till Christ taught us further, the point in your illustration is that all who get out on the water are regenerate right? If I understand that correctly then those of the elect that have embraced parts of a false gospel will eventually be riding Christ powered jet skis as they will shed the old garbage. I would say those that never shed the old garbage never made it any farther than seeing the shores (to their own condemnation) as the gospel of those so-called arminians is not the gospel....and the Jesus they talk about is not the same Jesus......even though they attempt to use the same bible right?
    But if you are referring to the principle in Eph. 4:31-32, I would understand that. But someone who comes to me and says that Jesus died in the place of every single sinnner that ever lived or will live......and now its up to me to make the sacrafice good for me......they are talking about someone I do not know (1 Cor. 11:4). The Jesus I know died in the place of His people, and His work is totally effective.....unfailing.....and not dependent on the actions of men (Mat. 1:21)
    So I for one let the arminians play in their own backyard, whom ever God is pleased to bring out of that yard, and perhaps ask me to help in the removal of bandages and other things (John 11:44) okay, I want to be patient with our new little baby brothers and sisters, same as I would ask. And unfortunately, babies have to have alot of diapers changed for a time, but that only lasts for a time, certainly the elect continue to grow, like the sun coming up in the morning....we get brighter and brighter till the day is at its end and Christ has come in His full glory and we behold Him as He is

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    Re: The Zen of Wave Riding

    Sigh..there's an overwhelmingly huge group of them(arminianists) out here, with it's "renowned" advocate (Dallas Theological Seminary) in the area, I feel like there's no place to run, and yes, I stopped running.

    With all the "christian" celebritism, 'positive' thinking, prosperity "gospels'..all wrapped up in pride. I found myself completely surrounded by these people. especially in the Chinese church communities..yep, this forum is a comfort to my heart indeed. Thanks

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    Re: The Zen of Wave Riding

    Actually Whammer, you got it all pretty much right. I just see a lot of believers like myself who were regenerated and moved into the surf, and were told 'swim, or sink' --- some were handed a boogie board and some waps, or a long board, or a barge, or a short board, and tried really hard to get to those massive waves of freedom in Christ. I pretty much have chatted to many believers over the years who got caught somewhere along the way to the big waves and the jetski with Jesus, they moan like crazy at me for being so chilled. I recall a song by Love Song, '...now I'm leaving all the driving to the chief...' It is not uncommon for believers who grow up in a church where the minister might have gotten a little too much of the olde Bible Cabbage, or University in'doc'trination, I witnessed this first hand as a brother of mine slippped into to terrible doubts and bondage and only after years of being really confused, began to understand the massive mercy of our God in Christ, and today works amongst the underpriviledged, ministry in love to the needy. So yes, the shoreline represents the place of doubters, skeptics, atheists and the like who look out and see all types of wave riders, a child of God who is using the Arminian type mode of wave riding is not lost like those on the shore and clearly Ephesians applies to them, and we need to really not be proud spirited towards those who are without, on the beach, and more so to sisters and brothers who are trying to do it all in their own steam. There are so many Whammer, and we need to come up with a better solution than pushing them from us with judgment, they are family and they are friends, and we need to hand them a paddleski, and tell them of the jetski etc....God is has been so good to us opening our eyes to the huge benefit of Christ, and Praise God we have not been caught up in the power of the false Gospel that is crushing yet another generation of believers into bodysuffism...hahahaha...excuse me it is a funny way of looking at Salvation....surf's up, gotta go Jesus is calling...

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    Re: The Zen of Wave Riding

    Quote Originally Posted by katoikei
    Actually Whammer, you got it all pretty much right. I just see a lot of believers like myself who were regenerated and moved into the surf, and were told 'swim, or sink' --- some were handed a boogie board and some waps, or a long board, or a barge, or a short board, and tried really hard to get to those massive waves of freedom in Christ. I pretty much have chatted to many believers over the years who got caught somewhere along the way to the big waves and the jetski with Jesus, they moan like crazy at me for being so chilled. I recall a song by Love Song, '...now I'm leaving all the driving to the chief...' It is not uncommon for believers who grow up in a church where the minister might have gotten a little too much of the olde Bible Cabbage, or University in'doc'trination, I witnessed this first hand as a brother of mine slippped into to terrible doubts and bondage and only after years of being really confused, began to understand the massive mercy of our God in Christ, and today works amongst the underpriviledged, ministry in love to the needy. So yes, the shoreline represents the place of doubters, skeptics, atheists and the like who look out and see all types of wave riders, a child of God who is using the Arminian type mode of wave riding is not lost like those on the shore and clearly Ephesians applies to them, and we need to really not be proud spirited towards those who are without, on the beach, and more so to sisters and brothers who are trying to do it all in their own steam. There are so many Whammer, and we need to come up with a better solution than pushing them from us with judgment, they are family and they are friends, and we need to hand them a paddleski, and tell them of the jetski etc....God is has been so good to us opening our eyes to the huge benefit of Christ, and Praise God we have not been caught up in the power of the false Gospel that is crushing yet another generation of believers into bodysuffism...hahahaha...excuse me it is a funny way of looking at Salvation....surf's up, gotta go Jesus is calling...

    Paul is different, he counts all religous experience dung , no matter how respected it was, and how prestigous it was with his peers, he renounced it all, when Christ in truth , was revealed to him !

    phi 3: 4-9 4though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
    If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.
    7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith

    Lets not exalt human experience and philosophy over the truth of scripture !

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    Re: The Zen of Wave Riding

    Quote Originally Posted by Kneeling
    Paul is different, he counts all religous experience dung , no matter how respected it was, and how prestigous it was with his peers, he renounced it all, when Christ in truth , was revealed to him !

    phi 3: 4-9 4though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
    If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.
    7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith

    Lets not exalt human experience and philosophy over the truth of scripture !
    Yes, I would agree Anne with the scripture you point to, its just that saul/paul wasnt even converted till the damascus road, and all the dung he is talking about is the self righteous garbage of his life then....and I think the scales falling off his eyes when annanias laid hands on him is a good pictoral reality of the gospel coming in power to him and the truth of the scritpure he had learned all his life now being seen for what it was in truth. But he went away to Arabia for 3 years also.....there was much distorted in his doctrine that had to be learned correctly, and he had to learn of Jesus in ways he never had seen Him in. Because of paul's jewish beliefs from the past, I dont think he understood the trinity that day on the damascus road......the pharisees (like paul) were always ready to stone Jesus for making any claims to being equal with God the Father (John 8 is a good example).......I think paul GREW in his understanding of just what the good news meant and of how Jesus accomplished it, and by God's grace it appears much more quickly than most, but how many of us are called to what paul was put to task by our Lord for?
    So we are not saying to be tolerant of a false gospel, just not to write people off as if we had access to the Lamb's book of Life, right?? Or does it sound to you like I would support the gospel of the arminians?
    I hope not sister

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    Re: The Zen of Wave Riding

    Quote Originally Posted by katoikei
    a child of God who is using the Arminian type mode of wave riding is not lost like those on the shore
    Well i disagree with your statement. I believe that Arminans are lost. They are believing in a false Gospel and a false God. Their eyes have not been opened by God, they are blind. I know because I was once one of them. Can God save them and put them on that jet ski you talk about? Yes. But if they are not believing in the true Jesus, if they are not believing in the true Gospel they are not saved. Salvation is all of God, nothing man can do. And they believe that salvation is conditioned upon man. I will not say that arminians are saved when they believe a false gospel, there is no way that what they believe will get them to heaven. If they keep believing the false Gospel that they preach they will get to Heaven and God will say depart from me I never knew you. All those who are elect will be saved by God, and will in their day believe the true Gospel. The Gospel that preaches that God chooses and saves. That God makes one believe and follow Him and that their is nothing of ourselves to contribute. We by ourselves do not choose to accept or reject God, we do not have free will. And all those who believe in arminianism believe that they have free will, that they decide their salvation and their destiny.

    Sorry but God decides their destiny, God is the one that saves not them. That is the true Gospel, and they believe a false Gospel. I know because as I said I was once like them.. walking blindly in a Baptist church for 13 years of my life, and before in an Episcipal church. I've come from a church that teaches a ton of works to be saved, to one that says we have a free will to accept or reject Christ, if we accept and say the sinners prayer we are saved. To now the true Gospel, to one that says God saves, that we do nothing and God does it ALL. The last one is what I have been searching for my whole life. When I was an arminian I was not saved, I kept singing this song that said "There's gotta be more to life than this".

    Well God opened my eyes and now I know what I was searching for, what the Baptist church and their false beliefs couldn't fill in me, the void I felt. Well now that void, that searching for more meaning is filled. Christ has filled it and opened my eyes to what the Gospel truly means.

    So if you are saying that those who are on boogey boards or those who believe in arminianism are saved, and regenerated and not like those on the shore. I disagree with you and I get scared when people say arminians are saved, just confused.

    Mary
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Re: The Zen of Wave Riding

    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer
    Yes, I would agree Anne with the scripture you point to, its just that saul/paul wasnt even converted till the damascus road, and all the dung he is talking about is the self righteous garbage of his life then....and I think the scales falling off his eyes when annanias laid hands on him is a good pictoral reality of the gospel coming in power to him and the truth of the scritpure he had learned all his life now being seen for what it was in truth. But he went away to Arabia for 3 years also.....there was much distorted in his doctrine that had to be learned correctly, and he had to learn of Jesus in ways he never had seen Him in. Because of paul's jewish beliefs from the past, I dont think he understood the trinity that day on the damascus road......the pharisees (like paul) were always ready to stone Jesus for making any claims to being equal with God the Father (John 8 is a good example).......I think paul GREW in his understanding of just what the good news meant and of how Jesus accomplished it, and by God's grace it appears much more quickly than most, but how many of us are called to what paul was put to task by our Lord for?
    So we are not saying to be tolerant of a false gospel, just not to write people off as if we had access to the Lamb's book of Life, right?? Or does it sound to you like I would support the gospel of the arminians?
    I hope not sister
    No Bryan it doesn't sound like you would support the gospel of the Arminians. And right we are not to write them off, we are to love them because we do not know if they are elect right now if they are part of our family. If I didn't have my friend Mike who loved me and showed me this website, and taught me about Gods true Gospel I may still be believing in a false Gospel right now. Or not God would have done something else to save me.
    But yes your point is right we are not to be prideful of the position we have in Christ, that our eyes were opened and their eyes are still closed. But also a few things that Katokei wrote concerned me, I wasn't sure if he was saying that arminians are saved even though they dont believe in the true Gospel or the true Christ.

    Thanks for your post. Have a great day!

    Mary
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Re: The Zen of Wave Riding

    So we are not saying to be tolerant of a false gospel, just not to write people off as if we had access to the Lamb's bok of Life, right?? Or does it sound to you like I would support the gospel of the arminians? I hope not sister
    Right on, Whammer. Mary, you have to see I am only saying that we need to be really careful to put ourselves in the position that is reserved for the Son of God alone.

    Read the last two verses of James and consider how we are suppossed to treat brothers and sisters in error.

    If they are not saved and in an erroneous Christian Heresy, then we are still commanded to walk in wisdom to those who are without.

    I am just considering your opening post and the people with whom you have lost contact due to your new understanding of the grace teaching. If anything they are still family, and if needs be you need time like Paul to consider how best to break it to them, in a way that will still allow you to keep the bond of peace, it is my only word to you. Rest in Christ.

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    Re: The Zen of Wave Riding

    Just came home from the old church I used to go to, and was very uplifted by 1 hour's worth of solid predestinarianistic teaching, yeah, a bit too far though.

    Bryan and Mary, it's good to see you guys trying to share your thoughts with scriptures in this forum in a loving and forbearing manner. It is all too easy to fall into hate, which in turn could ruin ourselves.
    1 Corinthians 13:8-10



    8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.




    Thanks, momoz

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    Re: The Zen of Wave Riding

    I think another section of scripture that fits here, and especially for me since I have such a strong tendancy to be quarrelsome at times (Rom. 7 sure fits here for me) is 2 Tim. 2:24-26............
    And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
    Now we know that false gospels are all concoctions of the devil, we were all help captive (temporarilly) at one time before coming to a knowledge of the truth.
    I also like this scripture in Acts 18:9-11........what if......and I simply mean what if (the soverign plan of the Lord could not be changed in reality here) what if paul got discouraged by what he saw and said to himself, there are nothing but God-haters here who seek my life, I'm going to hit the road.........but it is obvious that when the Lord spoke to paul, that he was afraid......hence the Lord's encouragement......so the Lord strengthened him and reminded him that He had many people (sheep of the flock) in the city of Corinth.
    Just some more thoughts on this thread

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    Re: The Zen of Wave Riding



    Thanks Momoz,
    If I could put this into words and tell my brothers and sisters who are drowning in the Calminians and Arminians heresies that have gained great popularity of late, I am sure they would want to learn all about being a predestinarian.....

    You weren't here when I first arrived, but I was washing dishes in a sink. Well, my wife went out the other day and bought a snazzy washing machine, so no more dishes, sort of what it is like when one comes out of the Calminian and Arminian, infact out of any heresy that has infested the minds of many believers in our generation. We need to really be inventive in the way that we reach out to them in love to share what wonderful freedom there is in Christ. No more yoke of bondage.

    Goodnight all and enjoy the surf.......

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    Re: The Zen of Wave Riding

    I'm not saying that I am not kind to the people in my old church. If you knew me you'd understand that its not anywhere close to who I am, I'm very kind, quiet, patient, reserved. I still hangout occasionally with my old friends, not as much but I still do, and I still call them.. and I still show them that I care. I'm not some monster.

    I'm just saying that I cant have likeminded fellowship with them. My God and their God are completely different, the Gospel I believe and what they believe are completely different. I cannot have true fellowship with them anymore. I thought before we were united, a family believing in the same God. Now I see that it is quite different. I wouldn't call them my brothers and sisters, they are God haters.. they hate the very true God that I worship. Can God open their eyes and change their hearts, and have them believe in the true God and true Gospel? Yes. And if that happens then they will be my brothers and sisters, and I can have a true fellowship with them, they will no longer hate my God but love Him.

    When I first posted that thread on when should I give up, my question wasn't whether I should not be their friend anymore. My question was when does one just give up on telling them about the true God and the true Gospel? I have told them many many verses and they refuse to believe. They dont care, they even get mad at me and say there is free choice, that the God I believe in doesn't love His people if He makes them believe. So if after countless times of trying to explain to them, and use verse after verse when does it come to that point where one is just speaking to a wall? They dont listen, they are deaf to what I say, and they dont care. So in that sense.. I feel like just giving up trying to explain the same things over and over to them. Just giving up and allowing God to do His will.. I've given them the information, they've heard the true Gospel. Now isn't really up to God? And I can pray for them.. but seems pointless to continue talking about the true Gospel and bible verses to them if they do not want to listen.

    I also still am not quite understanding you Katokei. Are you saying arminians are my brothers and sisters? That everyone of them are saved? I dont think you are but some of the words I've read almost seems to imply that. Again I say that anyone who believes in free will is not saved, not regenerated.. they are believing a lie. Some may become regenerated and my brother and sister and some may not. That depends on God.

    Well I hope I have made myself more clear on all this, sorry for any confusion. Thanks for replying and have a wonderful day! God bless!

    Mary
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Re: The Zen of Wave Riding

    I also still am not quite understanding you Katokei. Are you saying arminians are my brothers and sisters? That everyone of them are saved? I dont think you are but some of the words I've read almost seems to imply that. Again I say that anyone who believes in free will is not saved, not regenerated.. they are believing a lie. Some may become regenerated and my brother and sister and some may not. That depends on God.
    My sister, I have witnessed what this type of thinking can do firstly to whole churches and secondly in the lives of brothers and sisters that once cherished each other and were prepared to die for each other. You are breaking my heart.

    My example of those who are regenerated but have been indoctrinated by Free Will teachers, who actually mix it up quiet a lot by the way. I am friends with brothers and sisters who are at Calvary Chapel. I sat under ministry there that nearly had me falling over backwards in shock. With a little bit of study in logic, and philosophy, I can pretty much figure out a contradiction when it arrives. So when I heard grace and works being preaches as two seperate doctrines that are both right, I nearly burst out loud. Instead I held myself in until the sermon was over and went and gently tried to explain to the Pastor the obvious error in such thinking...he was a first puzzled and then owned up to the fact that he had seen something in the notes of his bible but had ignored it, I pressed him to consider this and that he would be responsible for leading people astray. You see my sister I am hurting terribly. I so long to stand in the congregation of the saints and worship Jesus, but where am I, communicating over the net....so my idea about 'The Zen of Wave Riding' came about as a possible solution to understanding and building courage to go and be with them. I love them so it is aching and aching....

    The shepherds are leading the sheep astray, not the other way round...some are good musician friends of mine, some don't take it to seriously and just read the word, as I have always done... So there are those who are genuinely regenerated, but the doctrines because they are not taught by those who are grounded in grace, perhaps they are allowed to enter the ministry too young, or because of a little bible training, and then begin to confuse others with their own confusion.

    So it is that I like to think of them as grades of surfers, for infact it is a big surfing church, so maybe God is going to use me to minister this sermon, I don't know....I play music at a resturant down the road, so they come to listen and I get to really share with them my thoughts in song...see, God has had a way for me to reach back into the surf and maybe pull up a few as he grants me HIS grace to do so ???

    Remember that jetski's are used to pull surfers out to the biggest sets in the planet....so that's it for now, if you are convinced that those who oppose the doctrines of Predestination and what was taught by John Calvin and the Reformers are not regenerated, I cannot stop you thinking that way, but it is where I have landed and am sharing from that perspective...it is my thread, and you jumped across so no harm...just let's praying for them my sister, let's pray and not faint until all of Christendom is thrown into a real Reformation, not one that is filled with the doctrines of free will...

    Praise God!

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    Re: The Zen of Wave Riding



    I have yet to see a body surfer - arminian catch a wave like this, one would definitely need the help of a jetski, to get up ontop of something like this, though I maybe wrong, maybe a Calminian could get up there with a surfboard, but somehow I think that is way to big for any free willer.....on needs to be a predestinarian to hit the BIG SURF !!!

    Tea's up, surf's up and I'm outta here, Peace to yer all.

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    Re: The Zen of Wave Riding

    The truly regenerate will be open to the Holy Spirit's leading into the truth and eventually come out from under false teaching (John 16:8-13). Those that turn away from the truth do not yet evidence true regeneration (John 10:27).

    For example, I recently had a conversation with a member of my former church about the gospel and about the falsity of the message "Jesus loves every single living soul and has a wonderful plan for their life." I maintained that she was sitting under false teaching since this message does not align with Scriptural truth (John 10:11) and yet was still being continually preached in that church (in addition to free-willism).

    This individual ended the conversation offended (and defended her pastor by saying that they always hire a pastor that agrees with the church's constitution) and confessing she wanted nothing to do with "my" election, "my" god (small g) and "my" salvation even though I had made it abundantly clear I was not questioning her personal relationship with the Lord. I take this to evidence an unteachable spirit and a current lack of regeneration. I pray that God uses our disagreement and division to encourage her to study her Bible (my advice to her) and seek the Holy Spirit's leading --as I pray the Holy Spirit gives me utterance in meekness and gentleness (a problem of mine also).

    I believe the above circumstance is covered by Gal 1 (and I would not be surprised if she believed in her mind the same would apply about the gospel message I was giving). However, if she (or any) should open the door to additional discussion of Scripture, I will be glad to follow the Spirit's leading and witness to the truth as many times as I am allowed. Every time I speak to those who hold to arminianism, I always offer to have a Bible study with them. So far, my offer has always been refused (even by members of my own family -- Matt 10:36).

    Those that are not open to the truth do not really know it yet (Deut 29:4). I think it is wise to take each case on its merits and not paint with such a broad brush either way -- either toward fellowship or toward ostracism. There can never be true fellowship with goats and God must move in the sheep-in-waiting.

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    Re: The Zen of Wave Riding

    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer
    Yes, I would agree Anne with the scripture you point to, its just that saul/paul wasnt even converted till the damascus road, and all the dung he is talking about is the self righteous garbage of his life then....and I think the scales falling off his eyes when annanias laid hands on him is a good pictoral reality of the gospel coming in power to him and the truth of the scritpure he had learned all his life now being seen for what it was in truth. But he went away to Arabia for 3 years also.....there was much distorted in his doctrine that had to be learned correctly, and he had to learn of Jesus in ways he never had seen Him in. Because of paul's jewish beliefs from the past, I dont think he understood the trinity that day on the damascus road......the pharisees (like paul) were always ready to stone Jesus for making any claims to being equal with God the Father (John 8 is a good example)(The jews believed in the trinity elohim is plural) Thats why they were going to stone him because of his claim of deity).......I think paul GREW in his understanding of just what the good news meant and of how Jesus accomplished it,(I believe thats a false assumption) and by God's grace it appears much more quickly than most, but how many of us are called to what paul was put to task by our Lord for? we are called to believe the gospel regardless of the task! The gospel in our day has been diluted and become a false gospel. God in his mercy undecieves his elect and reveals in us the true gospel and christ.
    So we are not saying to be tolerant of a false gospel, just not to write people off as if we had access to the Lamb's book of Life, right?? Or does it sound to you like I would support the gospel of the arminians?
    I hope not sister
    I write nobody off till they die, God may be pleased to reveal his son to an elect on his final day of earthly pilgrimage like the thief on the cross. I don`t count anyone a brother or sister unless they manifest a belief in the true christ and the true gospel, until then I count them as a lost person regardless of their religon and beliefs.

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    Re: The Zen of Wave Riding

    Kneeling,in the present time, it is only prudent to avoid fellowship with just any professing 'christian'.

    Rlhuckle, no harm to keep shedding light on the truth with others, just expect to be insulted or called names, suffering for our Lord this way is beyond compared to His suffering for us.

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