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Thread: Need Some Insight

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    Need Some Insight

    Hello to all. I am in need of some thoughts from the members on this board.

    The good Lord has blessed my wife and I with 4 children. The second of which died while in utero. With each of the 4 pregnancies my wife had to have surgery of one form or another (3 C-Sections & 1 D&C). We are currently expecting again in November. Again, by C-Section. The doctor has informed my wife that with the amount of scar tissue from her previous surgeries, that each from here forward brings with it exponentially higher risks. In addition, her Doctor would have to drop her as a patient due to the doctor's agreement with her malpractice insurance company and the hospital. Furthermore, the Doctor also told my wife we would be hard pressed to find another doctor who would take her on for this same reason. The doctor is suggesting that while delivering our next child, that the doctor also tie my wifes tubes.

    As Christians what should our response be? Considering the risk to my wife, does that play into the scenario at all?? I do not know of any Scriptures that would apply in this situation at all.

    Any insight, or thoughts would be appreciated. We know it is all in the hands of our Lord, but we are trying to discern what is the acceptable course of action here. Do we consider the welfare of my wife first?? I really don't know where to go with this one.

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    Re: Need Some Insight

    Dear Ashmoun,

    I am a Dad. I have five children. I had my tubes tied after our fifth. Currently, I would advise you to go and see your family doctor and let him refer you to a specialist, as well as making an appointment to discuss this with your minister.

    If I was in your position now, I would definitely have my tubes tied. If the doctor wishes to tie your wife's tubes for saftey; that is a double saftey net and will protect both of you. In my opinion, the financial commitment one engages in regarding educating all these children is a gigantic responsibility and having large families is not always the wisest of decisions in a very expensive world.

    I will commit myself to praying for both of you and the safe birth of your new addition.

    Scripture:
    'Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;'
    Ephesians 5:25

    His servant,
    katoikei
    (00:02)

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    Re: Need Some Insight

    ashamoun:

    Your doctor saying that he would have to drop her as a patient because of this sounds very unusual and very suspicious. I would HIGHLY recommend seeking out a second opinion. I would also recommend possibly getting that second opinion from a doctor affiliated with a Catholic hospital.

    We've had four miscarriages since our first-born and my wife got a D&C for one of them and got a really bad infection. Recovery took forever. We've got another little boy on the way and everything looks good so far (prayers would certainly be appreciated and we will pray for you). I would also ask for actual figures and proof of the higher risk from your current doctor.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Need Some Insight

    Another thing that came to mind is that it is possible that your current doctor botched something up and is trying to cover it up.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Need Some Insight

    Thank you both for your thoughts. I will certainly keep you both in prayer, and thank you for yours.

    WB, as to your point about the doctor messing something up. We already know they did with my wifes 1st pregnancy which set all this in motion. My wife had to have our first child by C-Section because of an error by the doctor. He had her pushing to early, which led to her cervix swelling. To wait for the swelling to go down would have taken hours, and may have put our oldest at risk. Had that not happened, she may have been able to deliver vaginally, which would have mitigated the need for subsuquent C-Sections. We were well of the situation and the error at the time. The doctors were very forthwright with the error. It was the attending hospital doctor and not my wife's who started her pushing. Our doctor was in another delivery at the time. We never thought about, nor pursued any legal recourse.

    Do we have any Scripture to rely upon as to this type of situation, or birth control in general? I know that Rome obviously does not allow it, but what is the basis of this? Simply tradition/magisterium ruling? Any Scripture?

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    Re: Need Some Insight

    Anthony, I'm not sure what's your question. Are you asking if abortion would be okay due to the risk to your wife, of if it would be okay to have either of your tubes tied?
    For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me. (Ps. 40:12)

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    Re: Need Some Insight

    Quote Originally Posted by ashamoun View Post
    Do we have any Scripture to rely upon as to this type of situation, or birth control in general? I know that Rome obviously does not allow it, but what is the basis of this? Simply tradition/magisterium ruling? Any Scripture?

    Remember this. Rome ALWAYS has scripture to back up their notions. That is not the problem, the problem lies in their interpretation and application. They can allegorize any and all verses. So it will do no good to argue from thsi perspective.

    Are you simply inquiering if sterilization is biblically fine? Be it you or her?

    This is not only an RCC concoction. The historical protestant thinking is exactly the same.

    Dort actually procalaimed contraception is the same as abortion.

    Luther called it sodmomy.

    I personally do not have an answer.

    Plus there is the Onan incident in Genesis 38. He was killed "for spilling his seed"

    This appears to be a very sensitive subject throught the history of the church. Here are some quotes.

    "Onan must have been a malicious and incorrigible scoundrel. This is a most disgraceful sin. It is far more atrocious than incest and adultery. We call it unchastity, yes, a Sodomitic sin ... that worthless fellow refused to exercise love. He preferred polluting himself with a most disgraceful sin to raising up offspring for his brother." (Martin Luther, 1483-1546) "For the sin of Onan, it was most detestable, because it was unnatural to
    spill the seed given him for generation." (John Mayer, Anglican, 1583-1664)


    "God destests and punishes shameful acts. Shortness of life for the wicked is the punishment of sins. The sin of effeminacy and voluntary pouring out of the seed is contrary to nature: this in itself is compared by the Hebrews to homicide. Thomas argues that this is more serious than homicide." (Johann Gerhard, Lutheran, 1582-1637)
    "This was so much the worse because the Messiah was to descend from Judah, and had he [Onan] not been guilty of this wickedness, he might have had the honor of being one of his ancestors. Note, those sins that dishonour the body and defile it are very displeasing to God and the evidences of vile affections." (Matthew Henry, 1662-1714)
    "Onan's sin, a deadly wickedness, an example to be held in abhorrence, as condemnatory, not only of secret sins of self-pollution, but also of all similar offences in sexual relations, and even in marriage itself ... Onan's offence ... was a most unnatural wickedness, and a grievous wrong. The sin named after him is destructive as a pestilence that walketh in darkness, destroying directly the body and the soul of the young." (Johann Peter Lange, Reformed, 1802-1884)

    Now Onans account can be directly attributed to a form of "birth control"

    I guess perhaps sex was only meant for procreation/generation and not enjoyment, according to these men. I have not given it much thought, but there is some to ponder.

    Perhaps it is because of pietism and moralist influence at these times. One thing I am certain of is the command to be fruitful and multiply was for adam and eve, not us!!!! And I know their is a verse in Paul which states something about a woman not depriving her husband of marital realtions.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: Need Some Insight

    Joe is correct. Protestantism historically was opposed to the use of birth control as were the early church fathers. The church fathers certainly erred when the taught that they only purpose of sexual intercourse was the production of children but the modern church errs when it views children as only an option. There is no direct command against birth control. There is the story of Onan who acted wickedly. I disagree with Joe and believe that the command to be fruitful and multiply does apply to us as well. The Bible everywhere speaks of children as a blessing from the Lord and the promise of the covenant should give every believer a desire to bring forth as many children as the Lord will bless them with.

    There are certain forms of birth control that are really abortion (such as the birth control pill). http://www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html There are others that may be acceptable in certain situations such as having the tubes tied. Of course 1 in every 200 women who have this done get pregnant anyhow. It's a difficult issue. You certainly have a responsibility to look out for the well-being of your wife. I wouldn't completely rule out getting the tubes tied but I would seriously try to look into what the risks really are. Getting the tubes tied is surgery as well and not without risk.

    The doctor who delivered our son met with us after one of the miscarriages. He admitted that modern medicine still doesn't know that much about child-birth and he said that's a good thing. If we did we could really screw things up. He said some things are best left in God's hands and I think he's right. I'm not going to condemn you if you decide that it's best to get the tubes tied, I might consider it myself if I were in your situation but there are alot of times where doctors are wrong.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Need Some Insight

    The Onan incident has no bearing on the morality or otherwise of the birth control question. This was a situation where a man had an evil opportunist motive for what he did--which has absolutely nothing to do with whether birth control in general is right or wrong.

    I'm not taking a stand on birth control here in essence; I'm just saying that the Onan incident has nothing to do with the morality or otherwise of the practice of birth control or even of masturbation. The lesson from that incident is strictly that God judged Onan for the sin of calculatingly depriving a woman who worshipped God genuinely of a child.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Need Some Insight

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck
    There are certain forms of birth control that are really abortion (such as the birth control pill).
    Why is this?



    Quote Originally Posted by Bob
    This was a situation where a man had an evil opportunist motive for what he did
    How do you mean?
    For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me. (Ps. 40:12)

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    Re: Need Some Insight

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post

    There are certain forms of birth control that are really abortion (such as the birth control pill). http://www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html There are others that may be acceptable in certain situations such as having the tubes tied. Of course 1 in every 200 women who have this done get pregnant anyhow. It's a difficult issue. You certainly have a responsibility to look out for the well-being of your wife. I wouldn't completely rule out getting the tubes tied but I would seriously try to look into what the risks really are. Getting the tubes tied is surgery as well and not without risk.
    You know I may be wrong but that site doesn't seem to be that scientific. It seems a little stretching to say that birth control pills cause abortions. From all that science has said it seems to say it stops the process from even happening, if it doesn't get started there is never a child born. And half the time when people post articles like that there isn't scientific research to back it up completely, its like a few researches but too early not enough done, and no peer reviews. I'm sure I could go research articles on it, and not find too many peer reviewed research articles if any.

    It's an opinion you have I understand that.. I just couldn't let it go without saying something. So that my opinion was out there, because I know too many of my friends who are married thank you who use the birth control pill. And by NO MEANS do I think they are killing babies that's a stretch if you ask me, and I know you didn't but had to say something.

    Mary
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Re: Need Some Insight

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Daw View Post
    Anthony, I'm not sure what's your question. Are you asking if abortion would be okay due to the risk to your wife, of if it would be okay to have either of your tubes tied?

    Jack, not an abortion at all. Asking about having my wifes tubes tied.

    Want to make that distinction clear.

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    Re: Need Some Insight

    Quote Originally Posted by MCoving View Post
    You know I may be wrong but that site doesn't seem to be that scientific. It seems a little stretching to say that birth control pills cause abortions. From all that science has said it seems to say it stops the process from even happening, if it doesn't get started there is never a child born. And half the time when people post articles like that there isn't scientific research to back it up completely, its like a few researches but too early not enough done, and no peer reviews. I'm sure I could go research articles on it, and not find too many peer reviewed research articles if any.

    It's an opinion you have I understand that.. I just couldn't let it go without saying something. So that my opinion was out there, because I know too many of my friends who are married thank you who use the birth control pill. And by NO MEANS do I think they are killing babies that's a stretch if you ask me, and I know you didn't but had to say something.

    Mary
    Mary,
    I can tell you that birth control pills work in two ways. One is to stop/regulate ovulation so that the egg is not impregnated. What few people realize though is that birth control pills have a "backup" feature. In addition to regulating ovulation, it also causes the uteran wall to reject an impregnated egg. So, for those times, and there are many, that the egg is actually fertilized, it is not allowed to implant in the uteran wall. The result is the abortion of the fertilized egg (fetus). That is how the pill causes abortions.

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    Re: Need Some Insight

    Quote Originally Posted by ashamoun View Post
    Jack, not an abortion at all. Asking about having my wifes tubes tied.

    Want to make that distinction clear.
    I think you have made the distinction quite clear in your opening post. How about having your tubes tied too ?


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    Re: Need Some Insight

    Quote Originally Posted by ashamoun
    it also causes the uteran wall to reject an impregnated egg.
    Well, not exactly. What it does is thinning the endometrium, not actively rejecting an egg for no reason.
    For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me. (Ps. 40:12)

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    Re: Need Some Insight

    Hi, I'm new here.

    I have never personally undergone the procedure since I am a man but getting one tubes tied strikes me as a very invasive procedure.

    My tubes were snipped. I had a Vasectomy. It was a simple, relatively inexpensive and reversible procedure with very little down time. My wife (and mother of our six sons) was very appreciative that she was not subjected to the more invasive, expensive and dangerous operations performed on women.

    Why does the woman always have to pay the price?

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    Re: Need Some Insight

    Dear Bacon,
    Tomato, tamoto. Tie, snip. It seems to have curbed your procreative activities, but enhanced you potency at posting on every single thread on this forum. Nice going and welcome to Predestinarian.net

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    Re: Need Some Insight

    Here's a website with some links, some of which deal with the pill preventing implantation: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-bcpill.html
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Need Some Insight

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
    Hi, I'm new here.

    I have never personally undergone the procedure since I am a man but getting one tubes tied strikes me as a very invasive procedure.

    My tubes were snipped. I had a Vasectomy. It was a simple, relatively inexpensive and reversible procedure with very little down time. My wife (and mother of our six sons) was very appreciative that she was not subjected to the more invasive, expensive and dangerous operations performed on women.

    Why does the woman always have to pay the price?
    The reason my wife would have her tubes tied is because she is already have a C-Section. The doctors will already have her in surgery with the tubes well within reach. Her doctor actually recommended tying her tubes rather than me having a vasectomy.

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