Pristine Grace

View Poll Results: What is Assurance?

Voters
24. You may not vote on this poll
  • Faith ALONE IS Assurance.

    22 91.67%
  • Faith AND works produce Assurance.

    2 8.33%
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 93

Thread: What is Assurance?

  1. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    1,304
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    3 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    Quote Originally Posted by melted View Post
    Hi Mary,

    You singled out "if we keep His commandments" and found that one of His commandments is believing, so you concluded that John's point is that, "By this we know that we have come to know Him, that we believe in Him". You then use this to dismiss the idea that works play *any* part in providing evidence that one's faith is God given and not a false faith. I think this is a fair representation of what you put forth.

    A couple of things:

    "Is it what Christ did and works? Or is JUST CHRIST ALONE!!!"

    This is a false dilemma setting up a straw man. Good works are a result of what Christ has done (Eph 2:10), so the separation of "CHRIST ALONE" from "what Christ did and works" is not valid. A person can most certainly confess that assurance of salvation is by what Christ alone has done and at the same time by faith and good works because they are results of what Christ alone has done. I hope you see that this specific objection is thus illogical.


    "Our foundation is Christ alone, we stand on Christ, our assurance is our foundation."

    Given the understanding that good works flow from the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work, statements such as this do not make a point for either side. Whether it is faith ALONE or whether works have some part does not deny that it is all of Christ and none apart from Him. To say so is to erect a straw man, such as the implication that I would confess that good works come from some place other than Christ alone.


    "This is His commandment, *that we believe* in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us."

    Absolutely! Do you notice that in addition to faith, that loving one another is mentioned as a commandment? So then is your confession now that assurance of salvation is provided by "faith and love for one's brother"? If that is the case, you no longer confess that assurance is by faith ALONE. You will now need to convince me that love is not a "good work", as I believe it is (notice that Paul lists it as a fruit of the Spirit in Gal 5:22). I believe this presents a problem for you.

    You also go on to say this, "You are right in saying that good works is evidence of faith. Good works does bring some assurance but only AFTER believing, after Faith". I certainly have no problem with this statement. The Bible is clear that faith is prior to good works (or, in other words, good works are a result of right believing). Are you sure about these statements that you have just made, because if you are, you are contradicting yourself given your previous statements concerning assurance being by faith ALONE. You also said this, "Good works only adds to that its like the sprinkles on the cake". Here again you are "sprinkling" on the good works. Are you sure about this statement? You contradict yourself again. Even with the "sprinkles", you still must then confess that BOTH faith and good works effect assurance *in some way*, not faith ALONE. You should either stick to faith ALONE, or admit that the Bible includes works in the ways in which God provides evidence of the true and real regeneration of a person.

    Berean drew some distinctions between faith being an apprehension of objective truth while works can help the subjective knowlegde that what you believe is true. I think there is much to think about in regards to that. This also seems to be the way John is speaking as he makes a distinction between writing a letter to help some believe (apprehend the truth about God and His work) and then writing a letter to believers to help them know that they have eternal life (that their belief is God given and right). I think profit may be seen in delving into what faith provides to the believer vs. what good works may provide to the believer. Do they work together? Does one always imply the other? Do the work against each other? If not assurance, what effect do Spirit provided good works have on the believer? Just some things I will be thinking about.

    Hmm.. you missed another point in my thread go read it again. I do not in any way contradict myself. One can be 100% assured by faith alone. Good works such as loving one's brother, such as the 10 commendments, such as no course joking, or any other thing which is good and not sin only adds to our assurance, it isn't THE assurance. Let me make this clear we are 100% assured that we are children of God because of our faith, our belief.. faith is mere assent to the Truth. Good works only brings more so its maybe more like we're 140% assured of our salvation and position in Christ when we notice good works in our lives, for example like reading the Bible, or loving someone, doing good to another instead of ill, stopping harsh words, not becoming angry,etc. I dont neglect good works, or dismiss it saying it plays no part. It does play a part but its not 30% good works 70% faith that gives us assurance, or any other percentage. It's 100% faith and maybe 5% good works in some, or maybe 20% good works in other.

    Matthew 13:23, (NASB), "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

    So people bring forth only thirty fruit some hundredsfold. Our good works are different in each man, some have alot some have little. So in your position is the one that has a lot more assured than the one who has little??

    Resting one's assurance on good works brings doubts, brings so many questions as to if assurance is based on faith and good works, how much good works do I need? What if I see more sinful things in my life than good works? There's so many variables its ridiculus! The only sure thing we can put our hope in is Christ and what He did.. His work on the cross, believing in this IS OUR ASSURANCE.

    I do not in any way nullify or make light of good works. Those good works is God moving in us, to teach us and to grow us to conform us to be more like His son. We are constantly in spiritual growth. I don't deny that, I dont deny that good works can be of encouragement, can bring joy to our lives and praises to God for all He is doing in us. BUT our assurance our salvation is based upon Truth alone, Faith alone and nothing else. The foundation is faith, faith can assure us that we are His children 100%.

    Let me put it this way I WILL NEVER believe that assurance is faith and good works. Because good works changes.. I want to rely upon something THAT IS NOT CHANGING. Gods revelation to me of the Truth is NOT CHANGING. The Truth will always be the Truth, and I will continue to grow in understanding of the Gospel. The Gospel will never become the ungospel, my belief in Christ will never go away. It is solid and secure... resting upon Christ and His Word, upon what the Bible says that I AM A CHILD OF GOD. That if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that I am the Lord, YOU WILL BE SAVED. This is all I need to rest upon to KNOW THAT I AM A CHILD OF GOD. His Word the Bible, the truths and promises it tells is ALL I NEED to know that I am saved... to be assured.

    I dont need a certain amount of good works to know this. When His Word is ever clear. His Word and reading this.. is faith, is believing. Again let me stress because you tend to read what you want to hear in my posts.... I DONT DISREGARD GOOD WORKS! Good works DOES have a part in the believers life, that is very apparent by the many verses throughout the Bible that tell us to do good, to obey, etc. But faith is what gives us 100% assurance, faith is certain, does not change.. is not 50% one day and 100% the next. Whereas good works do change...

    Again will someone please... answer my question???
    Let me make it bold so Kyle and others can see... if you believe assurance is faith and good works HOW MUCH GOOD WORKS DOES ONE NEED TO BE ASSURED????????????

    I made it big and bold because no one has yet to answer this. If assurance is faith and good works than please tell me how I can know I am assured... how much good works do I need to see in my life, and oh also WHICH GOOD WORKS??? There's a WHOLE LOT of good works and if its based upon that I don't want to be missing the VERY IMPORTANT ones.

    Please please enlighten me and answer that question.

    Thanks,
    Mary
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

  2. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    306
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    Hi Mary,

    You are once again contradicting yourself. Trying to have your cake and eat it too, if you'll allow me to be cliche (or does Milt have a monopoly on that around here?). You cannot have it faith alone and then faith and some works. You say faith is 100% assurance and when you add in works you may get to 140% assurance and even say it "only adds to our assurance". You still end up having works being an additional assurance on top of faith. This differs little from my position and what I see the Bible as saying. I don't care if works are a mere .0001% of assurance, or however you want to state it... the fact is that the Bible indicates that they have something to do with the full equation of a believer having confidence that they are rightly and truly regenerated of God. This does not equal to one "resting assurance on good works" -- it equals to one resting assurance on the Spirit provided fruit of regeneration, which includes belief in God's testimony and the good works which result from the Spirit.

    In reality, your "140%" is unfair argumentation as the whole of a situation (such as the whole amount of assurance one may have) would be 100%. By definition that is the whole, yet you have redefined the whole to be 140% so that you can still retain faith as the 100% (perceptively the whole) of assurance. It makes no logical sense and is not fair reasoning.

    Thanks for bolding what you would like me to notice as I am surely incapable of reading for myself (yes, that is sarcasm, and justified I think). The question you ask is not one that I can answer as the Bible does not give us that information in the terms that you desire. Certainly it depends on how God deals with each individual. Your attempts to paint a dichotomy between faith and works are still not successful, in my opinion. They can and do co-exist, clearly so in the Bible and also in the experience of the believer. Faith is preeminent and necessary for the other, and Christ preeminent and necessary for them both.

    Thanks for the interaction Mary. I look forward to considering what you have to say further.
    Gal 6:14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  3. #23
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,672
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    73
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    119
    Thanked in
    65 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    Kyle: Do you notice that in addition to faith, that loving one another is mentioned as a commandment? So then is your confession now that assurance of salvation is provided by "faith and love for one's brother"? If that is the case, you no longer confess that assurance is by faith ALONE. You will now need to convince me that love is not a "good work", as I believe it is (notice that Paul lists it as a fruit of the Spirit in Gal 5:22). I believe this presents a problem for you.

    This is not a problem for any of us; we have debated the issue before. In denying 'works' assurance we are referring to 'deeds' assurance and not dispositions or attitudes of the heart. Love for the brethren is a disposition that is a corollary to faith; our faith embraces Christ and part of that embracing is toward our brethren who are also in Christ. Plus love is always annexed to faith, however, the presence of faith defines whether true love for Christ exists and not vice-versa. "If you love me keep my commandments"; the greatest commandment or 'work' is to believe on Him who the Father has sent.

    If external deeds add to our assurance that is a 'sense' of well-being that is dangerous to depend on. The person who genuinely loves will perform good deeds. However, those deeds are imperfect and every single one of them can be duplicated by an unbeliever. We have to examine the MOTIVE for our deeds, faith, as the sole evidence that is cause for assurance. So there is no adding to the 100% faith assurance by external works.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  4. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    306
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    Hi Bob,

    I agree that we should examine the motive, and that external works can be duplicated by non-believers! Though, that does not present an argument against works being used, in the believer, to provide additional security of salvation. The argument one might make from this would be something like, "the non-believers can do works, therefore works cannot be used to assure a believer of salvation". It just does not logically follow, and so is not a valid conclusion (from this particular argument).

    In denying 'works' assurance we are referring to 'deeds' assurance and not dispositions or attitudes of the heart. Love for the brethren is a disposition that is a corollary to faith...

    I wonder if you might like to comment on the verse from 1st John below in light of this statement. It appears that it does not agree. Additionally, I do not see a biblical argument for "corollaries" of faith. I see an argument for fruits of the Spirit according to Gal 5:22-23. Can you provide some verses which explain the way in which you use this term so that I can know when I see a "corollary" as opposed to a work? Is a "corollary" of faith, faith (does a corollary of faith = faith). If not, then you may say that "one is assured by faith and all corollaries of faith". If so, then you may say that "one is assured by faith ALONE, and love IS faith (love = faith).

    1a. assurance is by faith and love
    1b. love is faith
    1c. assurance is by faith alone

    2a. assurance is by faith and love
    2b. love is a corollary of faith
    2c. assurance is by faith and corollaries of faith
    2d. assurance is not by faith alone

    Would you choose 1, 2, or provide your own?

    1 John 3:18Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.

    Plus love is always annexed to faith, however, the presence of faith defines whether true love for Christ exists and not vice-versa.


    I like this very much. I would like to also use it in this manner, "works are always annexed to faith, however, the presence of faith defines whether true works from Christ exist and not vice-versa."
    Gal 6:14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  5. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Nampa, Idaho
    Posts
    740
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    Yeah, this has been debated before. Last year's discussion really served to sharpen me and also to understand how Brandan, Mike, Kyle used terms from the scripture.
    It sounds to me like Bob and Kyle are pretty much saying the same thing as one another. But maybe there is some question actually over what really are good works?
    I think most definately that the "fruit of the Spirit" is good works. Who could deny (but reprobates and devils) that all that God the Holy Spirit does is good? And does He produce His works in elect humanity? And can His work be seen? And if it is seen.....how?
    I think one thing is clear to me about most who post here.......the faith that God gives the elect is a faith that produces good fruit.....that can only be seen by those whom God has given "eyes (and ears)" to.
    If this fruit results in true praise to God in the elect (along with elect angels which we cant see right now)......that also sounds "good".....maybe also there is some question over the word "works" as compared to "acts"?? I dont know, but the poll question seemed relatively easy for me to answer quickly this time.......as I think I understand better now............but I also look forward to some good interaction on this thread since it seems that further clarification would be fruitful

  6. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,849
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlyfavored View Post
    Brandan, I think we should make a policy that states: Please refrain from posting your comments until after you have voted on the poll.

    What's your opinion?

    I will oblige once we have a poll where it will require true study and not faith by proxy.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

  7. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Nampa, Idaho
    Posts
    740
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah View Post
    I will oblige once we have a poll where it will require true study and not faith by proxy.
    How does the poll not require true study? What do you mean? And Joe, would you please not post some other person's thoughts (ie an article for me to read from another website)......just your own words of what you mean.....okay?

  8. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    1,304
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    3 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post

    If external deeds add to our assurance that is a 'sense' of well-being that is dangerous to depend on. The person who genuinely loves will perform good deeds. However, those deeds are imperfect and every single one of them can be duplicated by an unbeliever. We have to examine the MOTIVE for our deeds, faith, as the sole evidence that is cause for assurance. So there is no adding to the 100% faith assurance by external works.
    You make a good point, I pry don't do that well of job debating for the position of assurance being by faith alone. I just know it to be True, it just makes the most sense according to Gods Word and all I know about the Gospel.

    Thinking on what you say Bob maybe that whole good works adding to assurance like more than 100% wasn't the best way to explain my thinking. Because as I look at what you say I think about my old friends, they believe in a false God, false Gospel we all know that because they think they have a choice in their salvation. Well both them and I would say we read our Bible, or we give to the poor, or we do this and that. Sometimes the self righteous of today, like the Pharisees did good works better than I! So would they be more assured? They don't even have the truth. You're right Bob in that motive behind ones deeds, faith is the full assurance. One nonbelievers could have the most pious life, doing many good works but far from the Faith, far from the Truth. Interesting...

    Either way Kyle I still stick to saying Assurance is faith, belief. Just as Bob said and I qouted in John THE WORK OF GOD is to believe.

    Though Kyle I still don't deny good works, they have a part in a believers life. But that part really isn't assurance. The more I think about it assurance in our salvation has everything to do with our belief in who God is.. and what He has done. Has a lot to do with salvation, what do we believe the Gospel to be about? If the Gospel is all that Christ has done, and we know that God elects us.. we can rest assured that we are His children by those words. We dont need good works to reassure us... we don't need what we do today to reassure us. Our assurance rests in Christ alone, and all that He already did for us. Justification our salvation was finished at the cross.. I believe our assurance rests in the finished work of Christ too. If He has finished it.. what more can we add?

    Thanks Bob for the feedback. Sometimes its hard for me to put into words what I'm thinking.. but still Kyle your side of the arguement is weak, it hasn't persuaded me one bit to change my thought process. Assurance is faith alone, good works has no part to do in it. I know I am a child of God because of what the Bible says here... and I BELIEVE IT. That's all I need to be assured, so that is what I'll rest upon:

    To add to 1 John (also see below) So far we know that the commandments of God that are talked about are beliving in Him and loving others.
    1 Jn 3:23, (NASB), This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

    Now to the loving others part.. Bob spoke very well about this, here's another verse in 1 John..
    1 Jn 5:2, (NASB), By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.

    Just interesting... seems we know that we love on another because we love God. It's like it just happens, its there its who we are. Belief is what salvation is based upon, that we believe.. our eyes are opened, blind but now see, lost but now found. Just believing in these Bible truths brings assurance, and comfort. I really dont think its so much as to the works we do as to what we believe and KNOW ABOUT GOD AND HIS WORD. HIS WORD BRINGS ASSURANCE!!!

    The Bible tells me I am God's child I will have faith and believe that.. and I will be assured of my salvation because of what the Bible says. THAT AND THAT ALONE. Nothing about works or anything I am doing in this life or not doing. But merely by the Truth that is found in His word can I be assured of my position in Christ. I believe this is key.. and this is what I'll hold to. So whether one says assurance is by faith alone, or assurance comes by Word of God.. either would work for me. But assurance being works... bla, definitely not work for me!!

    The Word of God brings me assurance when I read this.. and brings me 100% in that I am saved. Kyle you may believe in faith and works... but my prayer for you is that you don't start doubting when/if in time you cant see any good works. What if one day I'm doing all this good.. and the next my sins entangle me, and just like the Psalmist wrote that his iniquities have overtaken him and he is unable to see. I hope that someone who is in that place.. who cannot see, who is engulfed with sin and struggles that they can rest upon the Word of God and KNOW THEY ARE SAVED not because of their works, since at the present moment they pry see no good works.. but can rest upon Gods Word.. and what God says about Him. I think that's really what this is about is our position in Christ, God sees us as His children.. we can be certain of our salvation because of what God has said... not because of any of our doing or the works today but my the mere Word of God, telling us that we are His.
    How can I be assured that I am my parents child?? I am assured because they tell me I am. Not because I obey them or don't obey them.. but just because they say I am there's, God adopts us as His sons and daughters, tells us we are His.. are we going to believe that? If we fully believe that then we are assured. We dont need good works to bring that assurance we just need to believe what God has said to us. Its like you just know you're His child, we don't need a certain amount of good works to prove to us we are His.The Bible is full of belief, and that belief is what assures us we are going to Heaven, that we are Jesus followers, that we are saved. Just read the verses below about belief.. and what is said later. Like he who believes HAS ETERNAL LIFE. There's my security and assurance right there!! I have eternal life BECAUSE I BELIEVE!! Not because of some work I do. The very word of God assures me that I am His:


    1 Jn 5:1, (NASB), Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
    Jn 6:47, (NASB), "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

    Jn 11:26,27 (NASB), and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." Rom 8:16, (NASB), The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
    Jn 1:12, (NASB), But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
    Rom 8:17, (NASB), and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
    1 Jn 3:2, (NASB), Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
    Jn 3:36, (NASB), "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
    Jn 6:29, (NASB), Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
    Jn 6:35, (NASB), Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
    Rom 4:1-8, (NASB)
    1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, And whose sins have been covered.8 "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account." Rom 10:9, (NASB), that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

    Well thanks for listening.. too many quotes. All of these give me the assurance I need, I know 100% that I am Gods child and saved.. because I believe. I believe His Word.. and who Christ is.

    Mary
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

  9. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    1,304
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    3 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah View Post
    I will oblige once we have a poll where it will require true study and not faith by proxy.
    Too bad you really don't have to vote for us to know which one you would vote for. Your last post said you believed what the author stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah View Post
    Mary, the article is exactly correct.
    And people can refer back to that thread.. but it is quite easy to see from your interactions on the thread that you believe letter B. Assurance is faith and works. So why not just vote? or not even if you dont I know what you believe.. I think.

    And it does require true study. What if someone came up to you and asked "Joe how can I know that I am God's child"?

    What would you say? What would Kyle say?

    I for one would point that person to the Bible.. and say here.. it says if you believe you are saved, are you believing in the Truth? Yeah. Well then you're saved. I would show them verses that Talked about God choosing them, God adopting them, how they are His children. That it is all by what God has done.. and declared.

    I wouldn't point someone to their good works to prove they are God's child. Our security is in Christ alone, our foundation is Christ and all that He did when he was here on earth, the finished work of Christ.

    And yes the fruit of the Spirit is a good thing, and has its place. Growth in God has its place.. good works is our spiritual growth. It's God growing us and causing change within' us. But to know if we are His, is just to know that we believe in Christ.. knowing we are His is more closely related to salvation than it is to spiritual growth.

    Also Bryan I really dont think what Kyle is saying is the same as Bob. To the question above if someone were to ask how do I know I am a child of God. Bob would say because of your faith and your beliefs, mere assent to the truth. It's because of what Christ has done on the cross for you, His finished work that you can be assured that God has adopted you into His family.

    Whereas Kyle would pry say you can be assured you are Gods child because of faith in Him and good works in your life. What good works have you done?? Are you reading His Word? How much? Are you loving the bretheren? Well I can see this person saying "well yeah I do, but sometimes.. well the other day I got really mad at a brother and said a few things I shouldn't have.. I dont believe that was very loving." Or I dont know.. some other response my creative juices just stopped. haha..

    But it would be cool to see what people would say if someone were to ask you how you know you are a child of God?? Or if someone asked how do I know I am a child of God? How do you know you are saved? What proof do you have?

    Mary
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

  10. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    190
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    I think that perhaps our sin can cause doubt. I know that mine can. I think that God causes our hearts to turn away from sin and to become sick from it. He breaks us until we are relieved from it. Its all a growing process, He is teaching us our depravity and need for him, and showing us more about him as to grow us and prepare us for heaven. So though believers and non believers will do good works or externally appear to be without the guilt of sin, they no not justify anyone. Even the guilt of sin which leads believers to mistrust God will pass because of the faith that is given to them. Its a growing process and fruit takes time to develop. The reason that believers do these things are because they love the things that Jesus has done for them and taught with his life and example and obedience. These deeds only justified Christ though because he was without sin. No believer does a good work and then thinks that their sins are forgiven. its an improper response. In fact, a believer does a good work and immediately forgets what they did. A believer does not feel that their sins are forgiven because of their good works, but rather a believer feels forgiven only by knowing who it is who has the power, the authority to forgive. A believer only is assured of their forgiveness by believing that their just punishment was given over to Christ.

  11. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    103
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    I would like to ask those who believe we have assurance by faith AND works: Can you name a couple of your good works that you look at and feel assurance because you have done them? Is it when you do something nice for someone, or feel love in your heart for a christian brother or sister, or what exactly? I am asking this in all seriousness and not being sarcastic. I just can't think of a work that I do, that I can look at and honestly feel assurance from. Even when I do something nice for someone, I know in my heart my motives are usually not that nice. I hate that about myself, but if I am honest, I know it is true. If I look at my works, I do not feel assurance, in fact, I feel doubt. I feel assurance when I look to Christ and feel thankful that he loves me in spite of my works. I really just can't imagine what work anybody could look at in themselves and feel assurance, when you know your own heart.

    The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9


    I know what the verses in 1 John say and am somewhat confused by them, because I know by my own experience that I donít feel assurance when I look at my works, but I do believe I am one of the elect, or I sure hope I am.
    Run John Run! The Law commands,
    But gives me neither feet, nor hands,
    Far grander news the gospel brings,
    It bids me fly, and gives me wings.
    ----John Bunyan

    http://members.cox.net/ckizzz/index

  12. #32
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,830
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    147
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    92
    Thanked in
    60 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    Carol, that is my experience as well. Thank you.
    This is my signature.

  13. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    St. Louis, MO
    Posts
    190
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    Assurance of what is the question. Assurance of salvation is by faith we know because we believe that true salvation is from Christ. Some hold that assurance of salvation is from knowing that what we do is good. But then again how are we so sure what we do is good? There would have to be some sort of measuring stick to compare our good works to. Well actually, there is. It's called the law. The bible says that the law is even written on our hearts. There is a concience which tells us when we have done wrong. The problem is that we are so far underneath compare to this measure of righteousness that we cannot even begin to fathom how righteous God is, and thus we compare ourselves to others to make ourselves feel more righteous. Thus the measuring stick is no longer true.
    We cannot be assured that what we do is good, only that God is working all things for the good of the elect. And we can only hold to that in faith. In knowledge of Him to whatever measure he gives it. Living in this world and in this body can feel so hopeless alot of times because of our inconsistency of knowledge and motivation. We will to be better, we strive to know, and yet are brought low again and again. That is our strength though. We are strong because we have faith in Christ. We have faith that our sins are forgiven by His blood. Our blood could not satisfy what His blood will bring us into. And we know all blood will be shed, and that yet our imperfect bodies will be made perfect. That is what I hope for at least. Not that I know now, but that one day I will see the fruit of what I believe in.

  14. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    47
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    IF there are any works that I can look back on to give me assurance that I have faith then they are most certainly my own works. Which is false assurance. Are we in Christ we do conform with the world,that is why the world cannot understand us we are different if we have not seen it yet people around us certainly have. We do not have something with which we must do something with. We have something which does something with us.

  15. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,849
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    Quote Originally Posted by CarolK View Post
    I know what the verses in 1 John say and am somewhat confused by them, because I know by my own experience that I don’t feel assurance when I look at my works, but I do believe I am one of the elect, or I sure hope I am.
    Here are a few verses to ponder Carol:

    If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His son cleanses us from all sin.”

    What would practicing the truth mean? It cannot mean practicing reciting correct doctrine. Walking in correct doctrine is out also. It is more than that.

    I John 3:14-18 we are to fellowship in love and in deed and truth. We know we are believers because we love the brethren. “We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death”. In verse 18 it says, “My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.”


    This is assurance above. how does John say we can know[be assured]? becasue we love the brethren in deed and truth. It is both

    -"They feared the Lord, and served their own gods." 2 Kings xvii. 33.

    And the kicker:
    15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
    16They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.



    Ver. 16. They profess that they know God,.... That there is a God; that there is but one, only, true, and living God, the God of Israel, as professed by the Jews; and that this God is Father, Son, and Spirit, as believed by the Christians: for the persons the apostle speaks of were judaizing Christians. Yet this knowledge was but notional; it lay in theory and profession only; they had not a spiritual experimental knowledge of God in Christ, which only has eternal life connected with it:

    but in works they deny him. The Syriac, Arabic, and Ethiopic versions read, "in their own works"; they were not professed, but practical atheists; they owned there was a God, and boasted of their knowledge of him; but their lives and conversations showed that they had no true knowledge of him, and that the fear of him was not before their eyes; these gave the lie to their profession; they practically denied that faith they professed to hold, and the power of godliness, of which they had the form.

    Being abominable; in the sight of God, however esteemed by men; and notwithstanding the vizor and mask of sanctity and religion they put on, which could not screen them from the omniscience of God, who will one day declare he knows them not, and will bid them depart from him, being workers of iniquity.

    And disobedient; to God; to his law, and Gospel; to his ministers and churches; and even to parents and civil magistrates; for of this cast were the false teachers, and their followers, as maybe learned from many passages.

    And unto every good work reprobate: or "unaccustomed", unused to them, as the Arabic version renders it; or rather "without judgment", and understanding, concerning them; there was no good in them, nor was it in them to do good; to do good they had no knowledge, nor any inclination; they were unfit for it, and had not a capacity to perform it; they were not good themselves, and therefore could not do good; the tree must first be made good, ere its fruit will be good; they were without Christ, and without his Spirit, and grace, without which no man can do anything that is spiritually good; they had no true faith, and therefore what they did was sinful; they had neither right principles, from which, nor right ends to which they acted, and therefore were not qualified for the performance of good works; which require that men should be good men, created in Christ Jesus, be believers in him, and have principles of truth and love, and views to the glory of God.



    and one that destroys the Sandeman heresey of bare mental assent:

    John 2:23-25 – Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, beholding His signs which He was doing. But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men, and because He did not need anyone to bear witness concerning man for He Himself knew what was in man.


    And another:

    Matt 5:14-16

    14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.


    “for God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness” (I Thess 4:7)


    “hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling” (II Tim 1:9).

    “obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: but as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, be ye holy; for I am holy” (I Peter 1:14-16).


    “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him” (I John 2:15)
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

  16. #36
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,672
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    73
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    119
    Thanked in
    65 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    Joe: "Bare mental assent" is not mental assent, this is a contradictional paradox. If it is genuine mental assent it cannot be bare, lame, reluctant, or short of conviction.

    Kyle:I agree that we should examine the motive, and that external works can be duplicated by non-believers! Though, that does not present an argument against works being used, in the believer, to provide additional security of salvation.

    So are bad works used in the believer to SUBTRACT from the security of the believer? You cannot have it both ways. If good external works add to security then bad external works subtract from it. And HOW MUCH security is added or subtracted by each relative good or bad work?

    Naturally, if I believed this, the next time I spoke an unkind word to a believer--even without aforethought and planning, I would be doubting my salvation.

    The rest of 1 John does not contradict 1 John 5:10-13, which clearly teaches belief as the sole assurance of salvation in a manner that cannot be misunderstood.

    When I say love is a corollary of faith I am not saying that love = faith, a corollary is another attribute or thing that is invariably annexed to a primary attribute or thing. This is why John can also say that love brings assurance. However, it is dangerous to equate the disposition of love (which is imperfect--just as faith is imperfect) with the works that spring from it.

    We are assured by faith because of the PRESENCE of it in our souls, not its level of perfection. Works, on the other hand, are performed out of both right and wrong motives. No one can ever know if a particular work was performed primarily out of love for God or indulgence of the flesh. If we love God we will perform good works, however, the particular works that are good are known only by him.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  17. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,849
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    I thought I posted a link here:


    http://www.the-highway.com/articleDec98.html
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

  18. #38
    Moderator Rlhuckle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Lockhart, tx
    Posts
    661
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post

    We are assured by faith because of the PRESENCE of it in our souls, not its level of perfection. Works, on the other hand, are performed out of both right and wrong motives. No one can ever know if a particular work was performed primarily out of love for God or indulgence of the flesh. If we love God we will perform good works, however, the particular works that are good are known only by him.
    This is exactly what I have been thinking about. Taking a long view, one might even consider David's sin with Bathsheba a 'good' work in the sense that God had ordained their union to produce Christ in the flesh. Obviously, God engineered the entire circumstance and how many believers have been edified by that episode? As an additional support to God's intent in Joseph's situation, David's experience serves to illustrate that we see through a glass darkly in regards to what may be humanly considered a good work and what God INTENDS for the greater good of the elect. As Romans says, ALL THINGS work for good to those who are the called according to God's purposes.

    Scripture also says that without holiness, none will see heaven (my paraphrase)--is that our personal holiness or Christ's? Isaiah's words keep coming back in regards to filthy rags--never is our motivation 100% pure in any work we do--that is mere human nature. In my opinion, this discussion is academic. Those who teach works-based assurance of anything are glorying in themselves--regardless of whether they 'piously' assign the 'credit' to the Holy Spirit or not!

    God will produce exactly what He desires in each of His own. We can but look to the cross.

  19. #39
    Administrator Greg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,136
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    18
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    15
    Thanked in
    8 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    Quote Originally Posted by rlhuckle View Post
    Those who teach works-based assurance of anything are glorying in themselves--regardless of whether they 'piously' assign the 'credit' to the Holy Spirit or not!

    God will produce exactly what He desires in each of His own. We can but look to the cross.
    This is good stuff, it made me think of this:
    Gal 3:2-6, (NASB)
    2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
    3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
    4 Did you suffer so many things in vain if indeed it was in vain?
    5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
    6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
    So then Joe and Kyle, do you think Abraham looked to any of his works for assurance? If so what were they? If it is more than believing God, and I have to look to works for assuance (of in which I could boast) than I am in really sorry shape and I'm standing on shaky ground.

    The real question is, why do you need more than faith in him? Isn't that enough?
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

  20. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,849
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: What is Assurance?

    We can all agree that assurance is the essence of faith. (Heb 11:6)

    6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

    The objective realization that God's word is true. Accompanied by a subjective faith (I am one of the elect) is a distinction not found in the writ though. The whole of Hebrews 11 never says that one ONLY believed God's word and remained inactive. Noah built an ark, Abram left his home, offered Isaac, Moses parents hid him, The walls of Jericho fell, not by believing they would, but by marching around 7 times and obeying the word. Not one example mentions the person giving some assent of their perceived truth without acting on it.

    One's faith is always certain, even though at times it appears to weaken, a true believer will always get up and continue on. But one;s own subjective assurance my be completely gone. This is not only becasue of works, but many life's situations could cause one to lack full assurance; death, los of job, habitual sin, etc etc etc.

    We can draw a practical conclsuion that;
    Only the saved have evidence of God's grace transforming their lives,If I see evidence of God's grace working in my life,Therefore, I am saved.

    We must also be careful not to elevate this as the foundatin of one's assurance. This is the mistake that legalists make. But to completely dismiss it is pure sophist antinomian error.

    Calvin on 1 John 2:3 "The certainty of faith dwells only in Christ's grace. But godliness and holiness of life distinguish true faith from a fictitious and dead knowledge of God. For the truth is, as Paul says, that in Christ we have put off the old man."

    Presumptive regeneration is not only an error for believers children but also adults. Noting grows or becomes nutured. One will remain stagnant in their growth.

    Good works are not the fountain for assurance, but if they do not spring from Christ alone, and the fountain is dry, 2 results happen:

    1) Bare mental assent as proposed by many here leads one to pure intellectual stone cold religion. "You worship me with your lips, but your hearts are far from me"

    2) Works and morbid self intrpspection will lead one to false assurance. One begins to do more to earn more favor.
    If I lack assurance, it's my own fault. I'll feel better when I make myself get out there and do good works.

    We must be very careful in regards to habitual sin in one's life. At times I do not dare speak that I am a child of God after the grievous things I have done at times. Could you imagine if Paul still persecuted believers while confessing to be changed? This cannot happen and denies the power of grace.

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The Sacraments!
    By Eileen in forum Predestinarian Doctrine Archive
    Replies: 74
    Last Post: 07-13-06, 06:17 PM
  2. will religions join with the returning of Jesus?
    By ahmetcelik in forum General Discussion Archive
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 06-28-05, 11:31 AM
  3. Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE
    By John 6-37 in forum General Discussion Archive
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 03-14-04, 09:30 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •