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Thread: Jesus' resurrection was not in a 'glorified' body!

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    I'm not sure. And since it seems that we shouldn't speculate where Scripture is silent, I won't post what I think.

    Grace to you,

    jak

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    Well,

    It had to happen. I will have to recant my former position for now. I am in the middle of an intense study of the resurrection of the dead and my views are changing.

    Grace to you,

    OD
    'Unless I am convinced by scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe. God help me. Here I stand, I can do no other.'~~Martin Luther, 1521

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    curious - what are you beginning to see now?
    This is my signature.

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    Odyssey, a member of the body of Christ to the people of 5Solas.org:

    Grace and Peace.

    Concerning my views of Jesus resurrection body: Well, it's rather complicated. But the short of it is this, I don't believe that his body was 'the same' in every way as before his death as I stated in the first post of this thread. I do not believe that it was just a resuscitation of the flesh and bones. I believe that it was a 'spiritual body', i.e., a body suited for the spiritual realm. It could 'take on', if you will, or manifest, physically, but that was not its primary 'mode'. I am still very deep in my study right now, so, the Lord knows, I might come back to my previous position. But, for now, I believe that his body was a 'spiritual' or 'heavenly' body; a body suited for that realm.

    Grace to you all,

    OD
    'Unless I am convinced by scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe. God help me. Here I stand, I can do no other.'~~Martin Luther, 1521

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    Odyssey,

    Let me see whether I understand: What you're saying is that Jesus' body was raised, but that it was also changed (with which I agree, btw).

    We tend to think of spiritual realities as somehow less real - a Hellenistic habit of thought. But I don't think that is the Biblical view of spiritual realities.

    In 1 Corinthians 15, there seems to be a definite connection between the natural and the spiritual body, but not a confusion of the two. It seems to me, at this point, that this is one of those mysteries that we are not equipped to understand in this life.

    I'll be waiting (impatiently, lol) to hear more!

    Joy to you,
    Dianne
    "In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity." - St. Augustine of Hippo

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    Odyssey, a member of the body of Christ to the people of 5Solas.org:

    Grace and Peace to you in the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

    Dianne, you wrote:
    Let me see whether I understand: What you're saying is that Jesus' body was raised, but that it was also changed...
    Not exactly. It's like Paul wrote, 'It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body' (1Cor. 15.44). As you stated, we have a hard time understanding 'spiritual' body. For some reason, we understand that to mean 'non material' as in a spirit. However, I think that Paul's point was the 'spiritual body' is a different type of body. It has the same soul but the 'house' is spiritual and not 'natural'.

    Grace to you,

    OD
    'Unless I am convinced by scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe. God help me. Here I stand, I can do no other.'~~Martin Luther, 1521

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    From the various passages given in the Bible, I'm not certain that we can state exactly what is meant by "spiritual" body. Perhaps our attitude should be that of John who admitted ignorance.

    1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    The Bible does seem to state some very definite things, but we probably should not go beyond what the Bible says.

    From what I gather the new spiritual body is a result of the transformation of the old body. This certainly causes problems for full preterists who insist that the resurrection has already taken place. We have to ask why the bodies are still there.

    But on the other hand, heaven is not simply a place where the normal day to day activities and relationships that we had on earth are resumed.

    1 Corinthians 15:41-54 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    Amen!

    Sola Gratia,
    WildBoar
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Odyssey, a member of the body of Christ to the people of 5Solas.org:

    Grace and Peace.

    Concerning the 'problem' for 'full preterists': It is only a problem if we are to hold to the resurrection view your are espousing. The problem of futurists is that of disembodied spirits in the presence of god then, coming back for their 'transformed' physical body to go back into the presence of god. It makes no sense and, imho, can't be supported by Scripture.

    Concerning 1John 3.2: I completely agree here. And this is what I was referring to when I wrote my previous post. I believe that Paul tells us plainly that our bodies in heaven are 'spiritual' bodies and exactly what that means, I'm not sure and I would side with 1John 3 for support.

    Grace and Peace to you,

    OD
    'Unless I am convinced by scripture and plain reason, my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience would be neither right nor safe. God help me. Here I stand, I can do no other.'~~Martin Luther, 1521

  9. #49
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    No Problem for Preterists!

    Hi, I'm new to the forum but not to Full Preterism. I have been a Full/consistent Preterist for about 5 years now. I was born-again in a country IFB Church. After about 2 years of believing Dispensationalism and Semi-Pelagianism I began reading sermons by Charles Spurgeon. Soon thereafter I began to thoroughly evaluate Calvinism and not long after believe whole-heartedly that it is Biblical truth. Almost a year after that I started seeing the problems with Dispensationalism and for about 6 months didn't really have an eschatological position. I studied Post-mill and A-mill, but they didn't answer some of my questions. I, by chance?, was looking up an Article by John Gill and came across the Preterist Archive website. At first, I laughed and was amazed that anyone could believe such a thing. But since I had no formal postion in eschatology I decided to give it an ear while I was studying A-mill and Post-mill. Long story short, I was persuaded (after about 9 months study) that Full Preterism was Biblically true just as calvinism is. And here I stand, more firmly convinced than ever I was before.

    BTW, I like this website and its useful materials.

    Now for my opinion/rebuttal.

    From what I gather the new spiritual body is a result of the transformation of the old body. This certainly causes problems for full preterists who insist that the resurrection has already taken place. We have to ask why the bodies are still there.
    This presents no problem to full preterists. But let's look at a few verses noone seems to ever use when considering our resurrection bodies.

    2 Corinthians 5
    1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

    If we would just LOOK at these verses, we easily see that there are TWO bodies. 1) Earthly House and 2) building from God, a house NOT MADE WITH HANDS. Notice that Paul adds to "earthly house" the words "this tent. Now this is so we make NO MISTAKE to what he is refering to i.e. the physical earthly body. Paul also adds "eternal in the heavens" to "a building from God, a house not made with hands" again to clarify so there's no mistaking what he is refering to i.e. the spiritual resurrection body. Notice where this body is located, "IN heaven." And whence we recieve it "our habitation which is FROM heaven." And just so we know, Paul makes use of a phrase which would have the Corinthians to compare Scripture with Scripture i.e. "mortality may be swallowed up by life." See 1 Corinthians 15:53,54

    Thanks.
    In Christ
    B. Hildebran

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    Re: Jesus' resurrection was not in a 'glorified' body!

    Excellent thread! I would only ask a couple of questions. I am not entirely persuaded one way or the other. However, I do believe that there is some ambiguity concerning the physical vs. spiritual natures of bodies. That is, I believe that the difference between a pre and post res body is not that it is touchable (in that sense physical) or untouchable(in that sense spiritual or ghost-like, etc.) but that those two things should be interpreted as corruptable and incorruptable. And that said, we cannot assume that God is not capable of making something that is touchable, also incorruptable. That is, a incorruptable body might still be a touchable and recognizable body (perhaps even one showsing scars). Of course, this is all speculation and there is a great deal more surrounding this question.

    The main reason I am writing this post is to ask (and forgive me and direct me if I simply missed the answer) what evidence is there to suggest that the body of the risen Christ was NOT a "glorified" body? I do not necessarily believe that it was, but I think it would be interesting to look at it from this side of the fence.

    Also, I am not sure if we can equate the "resurrection" of Lazarus with that of Jesus. While lazarus was certainly resuscitated, the state of his body was most likely the same. With Christ however, though the scars remained, certainly he had been in some way miraculously "healed" or what-have-you because otherwise, he would never have had to show Thomas his wounds. Thomas would have known immediately had Jesus walked in three days later with the same torture ridden body that he had been buried in. Jesus did not limp in grasping for the frame of the door, but seemingly strode in, and apparently did not have the markings of his passion. Whatever one might believe about the accuracy of the Passion film, certainly any student of Rome during the period would submit that such torture was very common. Even a conservative amount of lashings would have disfigured him tremendously. They were, by law, to stop or else they would kill a man. They didn't stop with Jesus. In fact, Jesus would likely have been UNrecognizable had he still bore the wounds of the passion.

    My point is that SOMETHING changed in the body of Jesus. He was not merely resuscitated. But something changed big time. Whether or not it was "glorified" is debatable, but it is likely that is WAS incorruptable, and as that is what is needed to "inherit the kingdom" then perhaps our question should be, what is the difference between an incorruptable body and a glorified body? I realize that much of this is speculative, but I also submit that the original question was specualtive. Hope this helps to keep the topic going and I know it has certainly helped me to continue my understanding of this question! Thanks!

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