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Thread: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

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    "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Galatians 2:16:
    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. KJV

    Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not be observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. NIV

    There are several other verses that translate differently from the KJV in this way. Like Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:22, Ephesians 3:11-12, Phillipians 3:9 and etc.

    So my question is, "What is 'the faith of Jesus Christ'? What does this mean?" The NIV and other translations make it sound like our faith is a condition for our salvation. I guess I'm so accustomed to using other translations that the KJV translation is hard to understand on this point.

    Thanks.

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    So my question is, "What is 'the faith of Jesus Christ'? What does this mean?"

    Could it mean the 'faithfulness' of Jesus Christ? Because of his faithfulness to do all the things necessary to secure our salvation, we have believed in him.

    Carol
    Run John Run! The Law commands,
    But gives me neither feet, nor hands,
    Far grander news the gospel brings,
    It bids me fly, and gives me wings.
    ----John Bunyan

    http://members.cox.net/ckizzz/index

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Quote Originally Posted by Spatula View Post
    Galatians 2:16:
    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. KJV

    Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not be observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. NIV

    There are several other verses that translate differently from the KJV in this way. Like Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:22, Ephesians 3:11-12, Phillipians 3:9 and etc.

    So my question is, "What is 'the faith of Jesus Christ'? What does this mean?" The NIV and other translations make it sound like our faith is a condition for our salvation. I guess I'm so accustomed to using other translations that the KJV translation is hard to understand on this point.

    Thanks.
    Hi! I think this has been talked about before on here, but just my brief thoughts when I read that passage. First I hear the writer talking about the faith of Christ, which to me means His loyalty or promise to fulfill His Fathers plan of redemption. He was loyal to God, He never sinned or strayed from the objective. His life was perfect, and He died and rose again for His sheep. So when it says faith of Jesus I really just think of His life on earth and how He accomplished what He was sent here to do. And in the verse it is contrasting how it is not ourselves or the works of the law which justifies but Christ, and Him alone and His actions.

    Then it talks about faith in Christ. So first its what Jesus did and accomplished. Then it talks about His sheep believing in Him. Faith in something just means that one has confidence or trust in another. So faith in Christ is saying one believes in Christ and His accomplished work. So it is not observing the law which saves us but having faith in Christ, believing in Christ. However, it is NOT our own faith apart from God.. but the faith which God gives us.. the opening our eyes to see and ears to hear the Truth. It is the simple mental assent to the Truth which is Faith.. because it is not works says so here! It is merely faith in Christ which justifies. Our faith is not a condition upon salvation... The writer does a good job here I believe because first speaks of Christs life, what He did for us.. the faith of Christ. Then speaks about us believing in Christ, and His accomplished work. We know from the rest of Gods Word that our believing in Christ, our faith in Christ, does not come from us but from God.. its a gift from God. Its not that its a condition, for all Gods children will have faith in Christ at some point in their lives.. but even before conversion His children were saved so we know that having faith is not a condition of being saved.

    Hope that makes sense! haha Thanks for the question.. its a nice one.

    Mary
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Quote Originally Posted by Spatula View Post
    Galatians 2:16:
    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. KJV

    Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not be observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. NIV

    There are several other verses that translate differently from the KJV in this way. Like Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:22, Ephesians 3:11-12, Phillipians 3:9 and etc.

    So my question is, "What is 'the faith of Jesus Christ'? What does this mean?" The NIV and other translations make it sound like our faith is a condition for our salvation. I guess I'm so accustomed to using other translations that the KJV translation is hard to understand on this point.

    Thanks.
    It's the faith the elect share in, there is no other faith. The distinction in the text is really no distintion at all. It's all from God, and it's all a gift.

    1 Corinthians 4:7 For who makes you to differ from another ? And what do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it , why do you boast as if you had not received it?
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlyfavored View Post
    It's the faith the elect share in, there is no other faith. The distinction in the text is really no distintion at all. It's all from God, and it's all a gift.
    The NIV says, " Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not be observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."

    So then, according to this version, we are justified by faith in Christ. It sounds like faith is a condition for salvation here. Did the NIV translators get it wrong?

    Carol wrote:
    "Could it mean the 'faithfulness' of Jesus Christ? Because of his faithfulness to do all the things necessary to secure our salvation, we have believed in him."

    Equivalently, you could say we are justified by the gospel of Jesus Christ then. But I'm not sure how you would justify this interpretation of Galations 2:16.

    Thanks again.

    -Spatula



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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: KJV
    also the LITV says: "faith of Jesus"

    The righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference. NIV

    This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, TNIV

    Now God says he will accept and acquit us – declare us "not guilty" – if we trust Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, by coming to Christ, no matter who we are or what we have been like. LB (Living bible/dead book)

    Yes, God’s righteousness through the faith in Jesus Christ, for all those having faith. For there is no distinction. NWT (watchtower bible/new world translation)

    Since it is the same justice of God that comes through faith to everyone, Jew and pagan alike who believes in Jesus Christ. JB (Jerusalem bible)

    Galatians 2:16

    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. KJV

    Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not be observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. NIV

    Know that a person is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. TNIV

    And yet we Jewish Christians know very well that we cannot become right with God by obeying our Jewish laws, but only by faith in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And so we too have trusted Jesus Christ, that we might be accepted by God because of faith — and not because we obeyed the Jewish laws. For no one will ever be saved by obeying them. LB

    Knowing as we do that a man is declared righteous, not due to works of law, but only through faith toward Christ Jesus, even we have put out faith in Christ Jesus, that we may be declared righteous due to faith toward toward Christ, and not due to works of the law, because due to works of law no flesh will be declared righteous. NWT

    We acknowledge that what makes a man righteous is not obedience to the Law, but faith in Jesus Christ. We had to become believers in Christ Jesus no less than you had, and now we hold that faith in Christ rather than fidelity to the Law is what justifies us, and that no one can be justified by keeping the Law. JB

    Galatians 2:20

    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. KJV

    I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. NIV

    I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. TNIV

    I have been crucified with Christ: and I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. And the real life I now have within this body is a result of my trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. LB

    I am impaled along with Christ. It is no longer I that live, but it is Christ that is living in union with me. Indeed the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faith that is toward the Son of God who loved me and handed himself over for me. NWT

    I have been crucified with Christ, and I live now not with my own life but with the life of Christ who lives in me. The life I now live in this body I live in faith: faith in the Son of God who loved me and who sacrificed himself for my sake. JB

    Galatians 3:22

    But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. KJV

    But the scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. NIV

    But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. TNIV

    For the Scriptures insist we are all its prisoners. The only way out is through faith in Jesus Christ; the way of escape is open to all who believe him. LB

    But the Scripture delivered up all things together to the custody of sin, that the promise resulting from faith toward Jesus Christ might be given to those exercising faith. NWT

    Scripture makes no exceptions when it says that sin is master everywhere. In this way the promise can only be given through faith in Jesus Christ and can only be given to those who have this faith. JB

    Ephesians 3:11-12

    According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. KJV

    According to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. NIV

    According to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. TNIV

    In just the way he had always planned it through Jesus Christ our Lord. Now we can come fearlessly right into God’s presence, assured of his glad welcome when we come with Christ and trust in him. LB

    According to the eternal purpose that he formed in connection with the Christ, Jesus our Lord, by means of whom we have this freeness of speech and an approach with confidence through our faith in him. NWT

    Exactly according to the plan which he had had from all eternity in Christ Jesus our Lord. This is why we are bold enough to approach God in complete confidence, through our faith in him. JB

    Philippians 3:9

    And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: KJV

    And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ – the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. NIV

    And be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ – the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. TNIV And become one with him, no longer counting on being saved by being good enough or by obeying God’s laws, but by trusting Christ to save me; for God’s way of making us right with himself depends on faith – counting on Christ alone. LB

    And be found in union with him, having, not my own righteousness, which results from law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness that issues from God on the basis of faith. NWT

    I am no longer trying for perfection by my own efforts, the perfection that comes from the Law, but I want only the perfection that comes through faith in Christ, and is from God and based on faith. JB

    Colossians 2:12

    Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. KJV

    Having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. NIV Having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. TNIV

    For in baptism you see how our old, evil nature died with him and was buried with him; and then you came up out of death with him into a new life because you trusted the Word of the mighty God who raised Christ from the dead. LB

    For you were buried with him in his baptism, and by relationship with him you were also raised up together through your faith in the operation of God, who raised him up from the dead. NWT

    You have been buried with him, when you were baptized; and by baptism, too, you have been raised up with him through your belief in the power of God who raised him from the dead. JB

    James 2:1

    My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. KJV

    My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don’t show favoritism. NIV

    My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. TNIV

    Dear brothers, how can you claim that you belong to the Lord Jesus Christ the Lord of glory, if you show favoritism to rich people and look down on poor people? LB

    My brothers, you are not holding the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ our glory, with acts of favoritism are you? NWT My brothers, do not try to combine faith in Jesus Christ, our glorified Lord, with the making of distinctions between classes of people. JB

    Revelation 14:12

    Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. KJV

    This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. NIV

    This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. TNIV

    Let this encourage God’s people to endure patiently every trial and persecution, for they are his saints who remain firm to the end in obedience to his commands and trust in Jesus. LB

    Here is where it means endurance for the holy ones those who observe the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. NWT

    This is why there must be constancy in the saints who keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus. JB
    Psalm 66:16
    Come and hear, all ye that fear God, and I will declare what he hath done for my soul.

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    We have been over this in the forum again and again. The reason that some translators go with 'faith in Christ' for passages such as Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:22 is because they are convinced that the tense is a subjective genitive as opposed to an objective genitive. The 'faith of Christ' translators believe that an objective genitive is the proper translation.

    The difference is this:

    Subjective Genitive: "Faith sovereignly COMING FROM or GIVEN BY Jesus Christ according to His purposes."

    Objective Genitive: "Jesus Christ's own PERSONAL faith that none of his redeemed subjects participate in."

    The whole of scriptural testimony favors the view that this should be translated as a subjective genitive. It is the faith coming from, owned by, and given by Jesus Christ-but resident in our own souls. Christ was faithful in all things in His life on earth--but He was under no oblibation to turn away from His sins (which did not exist) and believe in the righteousness of another (who?) to merit His salvation (which He did not need).
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    We have been over this in the forum again and again. The reason that some translators go with 'faith in Christ' for passages such as Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:22 is because they are convinced that the tense is a subjective genitive as opposed to an objective genitive. The 'faith of Christ' translators believe that an objective genitive is the proper translation.

    The difference is this:

    Subjective Genitive: "Faith sovereignly COMING FROM or GIVEN BY Jesus Christ according to His purposes."

    Objective Genitive: "Jesus Christ's own PERSONAL faith that none of his redeemed subjects participate in."

    The whole of scriptural testimony favors the view that this should be translated as a subjective genitive. It is the faith coming from, owned by, and given by Jesus Christ-but resident in our own souls. Christ was faithful in all things in His life on earth--but He was under no oblibation to turn away from His sins (which did not exist) and believe in the righteousness of another (who?) to merit His salvation (which He did not need).
    So when it says faith of Christ in some translations you believe that it should really just be saying faith in Christ? That there are not two distinctions? Just making sure I'm clear on that one.. and yeah I did read all those verses and how they are translated differently. I find it interesting and confusing sometimes how each version of the Bible is translated a bit differently, seems it can sometimes confuse people on the meaning of Gods Word. How do you then decipher what is the correct form of use when it comes to verses like this? I assume knowing greek or hebrew helps...

    Thanks for your response Bob!!

    Mary
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Mary:So when it says faith of Christ in some translations you believe that it should really just be saying faith in Christ? That there are not two distinctions? Just making sure I'm clear on that one.. and yeah I did read all those verses and how they are translated differently. I find it interesting and confusing sometimes how each version of the Bible is translated a bit differently, seems it can sometimes confuse people on the meaning of Gods Word. How do you then decipher what is the correct form of use when it comes to verses like this? I assume knowing greek or hebrew helps...

    Link:

    http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu/l...itive_case.htm

    The genitive case is characteristic of all languages of Latin or Greek origin. We know that these biblical passages use the genitive case; however, that does not explain the meaning in and of itself. This one rule cited in the link above applies to the genitive in ANY language:

    There is no difference in form between the subjective and the objective genitive. Only context can make a final determination.

    So we have to examine the context. "Faith of Christ" IS the proper way to translate the genitive, however, the very translation can be confusing if it is understood as an objective genitive (Christ's own personal faith or faithfulness). The whole context of these passages has to do with how a person is justified experientially or personally (faith as opposed to works/performance), so the "faith of Christ" contextual meaning here is "faith owned by Christ, created by Him, and exercised in and through us" --the subjective genitive.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Quote Originally Posted by CarolK View Post
    So my question is, \"What is 'the faith of Jesus Christ'? What does this mean?\"

    Could it mean the 'faithfulness' of Jesus Christ? Because of his faithfulness to do all the things necessary to secure our salvation, we have believed in him.

    Carol
    Carol,
    You are correct in your statement. The word faith has a much richer definition than most give it. Romans 3 gives us one of the main ways Paul uses this greek word.


    Rom 3:3
    3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? (KJV)

    God remains faithful even when Israel was unfaithful (in unbelief).

    If you want to get deep into some of the debate over this word I would suggest a book by Richard B. Hays. It is not as simple as some suggest on this site. Our justification relies soley on the faith/faithfulness of Jesus Christ. His obedience even to death is our justification. Not our believing.

    The Faith of Jesus Christ: The Narrative Substructure of Galatians 3:1-4:11 by Richard B., Hays

    It is a pretty deep book, but if you stick with it you can get alot out of it.

    John
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Quote Originally Posted by Spatula View Post
    The NIV says, " Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not be observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."

    So then, according to this version, we are justified by faith in Christ. It sounds like faith is a condition for salvation here. Did the NIV translators get it wrong?

    Carol wrote:
    "Could it mean the 'faithfulness' of Jesus Christ? Because of his faithfulness to do all the things necessary to secure our salvation, we have believed in him."

    Equivalently, you could say we are justified by the gospel of Jesus Christ then. But I'm not sure how you would justify this interpretation of Galations 2:16.

    Thanks again.

    -Spatula


    Don't you think it would be kind of redundent to say: " we are justified by faith in (believing) Jesus Christ, even we have believed.......

    John
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    NET Bible

    3:22 namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ28 for all who believe. For there is no distinction,

    28 tn Or “faith in Christ.” A decision is difficult here. Though traditionally translated “faith in Jesus Christ,” an increasing number of NT scholars are arguing that πίστιςΧριστοῦ (pisti" Cristou) and similar phrases in Paul (here and in v. 26; Gal 2:16, 20; 3:22; Eph 3:12; Phil 3:9) involve a subjective genitive and mean “Christ’s faith” or “Christ’s faithfulness” (cf., e.g., G. Howard, “The ‘Faith of Christ’,” ExpTim 85 [1974]: 212-15; R. B. Hays, The Faith of Jesus Christ [SBLDS]; Morna D. Hooker, “ΠίστιςΧριστοῦ,” NTS 35 [1989]: 321-42). Noteworthy among the arguments for the subjective genitive view is that when πίστις takes a personal genitive it is almost never an objective genitive (cf. Matt 9:2, 22, 29; Mark 2:5; 5:34; 10:52; Luke 5:20; 7:50; 8:25, 48; 17:19; 18:42; 22:32; Rom 1:8; 12; 3:3; 4:5, 12, 16; 1 Cor 2:5; 15:14, 17; 2 Cor 10:15; Phil 2:17; Col 1:4; 2:5; 1 Thess 1:8; 3:2, 5, 10; 2 Thess 1:3; Titus 1:1; Phlm 6; 1 Pet 1:9, 21; 2 Pet 1:5). On the other hand, the objective genitive view has its adherents: A. Hultgren, “The Pistis Christou Formulations in Paul,” NovT 22 (1980): 248-63; J. D. G. Dunn, “Once More, ΠΙΣΤΙΣΧΡΙΣΤΟΥ,” SBL Seminar Papers, 1991, 730-44. Most commentaries on Romans and Galatians usually side with the objective view.
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgipson View Post
    NET Bible

    3:22 namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ28 for all who believe. For there is no distinction,

    28 tn Or “faith in Christ.” A decision is difficult here. Though traditionally translated “faith in Jesus Christ,” an increasing number of NT scholars are arguing that πίστιςΧριστοῦ (pisti" Cristou) and similar phrases in Paul (here and in v. 26; Gal 2:16, 20; 3:22; Eph 3:12; Phil 3:9) involve a subjective genitive and mean “Christ’s faith” or “Christ’s faithfulness” (cf., e.g., G. Howard, “The ‘Faith of Christ’,” ExpTim 85 [1974]: 212-15; R. B. Hays, The Faith of Jesus Christ [SBLDS]; Morna D. Hooker, “ΠίστιςΧριστοῦ,” NTS 35 [1989]: 321-42). Noteworthy among the arguments for the subjective genitive view is that when πίστις takes a personal genitive it is almost never an objective genitive (cf. Matt 9:2, 22, 29; Mark 2:5; 5:34; 10:52; Luke 5:20; 7:50; 8:25, 48; 17:19; 18:42; 22:32; Rom 1:8; 12; 3:3; 4:5, 12, 16; 1 Cor 2:5; 15:14, 17; 2 Cor 10:15; Phil 2:17; Col 1:4; 2:5; 1 Thess 1:8; 3:2, 5, 10; 2 Thess 1:3; Titus 1:1; Phlm 6; 1 Pet 1:9, 21; 2 Pet 1:5). On the other hand, the objective genitive view has its adherents: A. Hultgren, “The Pistis Christou Formulations in Paul,” NovT 22 (1980): 248-63; J. D. G. Dunn, “Once More, ΠΙΣΤΙΣΧΡΙΣΤΟΥ,” SBL Seminar Papers, 1991, 730-44. Most commentaries on Romans and Galatians usually side with the objective view.
    Thanks, JM...

    I subscribe primarily to the subjective genative based on various passages including, but not limited to;

    "without faith it impossible to please God"
    "this is my Son in Whom I am well pleased"

    etc.

    However, I cannot omit various other instances in the Gospel accounts where Christ is quoted as saying "you're faith has saved you".

    I think both positions are vaild because the Scriptures present them as such, but I also think latter stems from the former.

    Just my two cents.

    Scott.

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugly_Gaunt_Cow View Post
    Thanks, JM...

    I subscribe primarily to the subjective genative based on various passages including, but not limited to;

    "without faith it impossible to please God"
    "this is my Son in Whom I am well pleased"

    etc.

    However, I cannot omit various other instances in the Gospel accounts where Christ is quoted as saying "you're faith has saved you".

    I think both positions are vaild because the Scriptures present them as such, but I also think latter stems from the former.

    Just my two cents.

    Scott.
    Thanks Scott. One thing that we must remember though with a verse as you have quoted: "your faith has saved you" only tells us that there was a deliverance. They have been delivered from something, not salvation in the sense of condemnation etc.

    John
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    There are some passages such as Rom. 3:3 where indeed God's faithfulness is referred to in context. However, to press the whole passage into the mold of saying that we are justified by Christ's own objective faith does not fit the context. See my annotations below as to how this type of interpretation shakes out:

    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through [God's own personal] faith in his [Christ's] blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him [God] which believeth in Jesus.27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of [God's own personal] faith.28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by [God's] faith without the deeds of the law.29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by [God's] faith, and uncircumcision through [God's] faith.31 Do we then make void the law through [God's] faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    This type of strained interpretation: proposing God's personal faith as the declaration of justification is not the way I want to read and interpret scripture.

    Justification is multi-dimensional: eternal (Rom. 8:30), constituted complete at the cross (Rom. 5:18), and declared by the faith of Christ imparted to our souls (Rom. 3:26b).

    Looking at the Greek below and what I have highlighted in red will illustrate how illogical it is to translate the same Greek word as 'belief' in verse 26 and 'faith' in the other verses. The interlinear properly translates these as the same word.

    25 on <3739> {WHOM} proeqeto <4388> (5639) o <3588> {SET FORTH} qeoV <2316> {GOD} ilasthrion <2435> {A MERCY SEAT} dia <1223> thV <3588> {THROUGH} pistewV <4102> {FAITH} en <1722> tw <3588> {IN} autou <846> {HIS} aimati <129> {BLOOD,} eiV <1519> {FOR A} endeixin <1732> {SHOWING FORTH} thV <3588> {OF} dikaiosunhV <1343> {RIGHTEOUSNESS} autou <846> {HIS} dia <1223> {IN RESPECT OF} thn <3588> {THE} paresin <3929> {PASSING BY} twn <3588> {THE} progegonotwn <4266> (5761) {THAT HAD BEFORE TAKEN PLACE} amarthmatwn <265> {SINS} 26 en <1722> {IN} th <3588> {THE} anoch <463> {FORBEARANCE} tou <3588> {OF} qeou <2316> {GOD} proV <4314> {FOR [THE]} endeixin <1732> {SHOWING FORTH} thV <3588> {OF} dikaiosunhV <1343> {RIGHTEOUSNESS} autou <846> {HIS} en <1722> {IN} tw <3588> {THE} nun <3568> {PRESENT} kairw <2540> {TIME,} eiV <1519> to <3588> {FOR} einai <1511> (5750) {BEING} auton <846> {HIS} dikaion <1342> {JUST} kai <2532> {AND} dikaiounta <1344> (5723) {JUSTIFYING} ton <3588> {HIM THAT [IS]} ek <1537> {OF THE} pistewV <4102> {FAITH} ihsou <2424> {OF JESUS.} 27 pou <4226> {WHERE} oun <3767> {THEN [IS]} h <3588> {THE} kauchsiV <2746> {BOASTING?} exekleisqh <1576> (5681) {IT WAS EXCLUDED.} dia <1223> {THROUGH} poiou <4169> {WHAT} nomou <3551> {LAW?} twn <3588> {OF} ergwn <2041> {WORKS?} ouci <3780> {NO,} alla <235> {BUT} dia <1223> {THROUGH} nomou <3551> {A LAW} pistewV <4102> {OF FAITH.} 28 logizomeqa <3049> (5736) {WE RECKON} oun <3767> {THEREFORE} pistei <4102> {BY FAITH} dikaiousqai <1344> (5745) {TO BE JUSTIFIED} anqrwpon <444> {A MAN} cwriV <5565> {APART FROM} ergwn <2041> {WORKS} nomou <3551> {OF LAW.}

    The person that is 'of the faith of Jesus' in vs. 26b is not Jesus Christ himself.

    The passage is teaching that the law of faith in the believer's experience is the sole assurance and declaration of individual justification.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    There are some passages such as Rom. 3:3 where indeed God's faithfulness is referred to in context. However, to press the whole passage into the mold of saying that we are justified by Christ's own objective faith does not fit the context. See my annotations below as to how this type of interpretation shakes out:

    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through [God's own personal] faith in his [Christ's] blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him [God] which believeth in Jesus.27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of [God's own personal] faith.28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by [God's] faith without the deeds of the law.29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by [God's] faith, and uncircumcision through [God's] faith.31 Do we then make void the law through [God's] faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    This type of strained interpretation: proposing God's personal faith as the declaration of justification is not the way I want to read and interpret scripture.

    Justification is multi-dimensional: eternal (Rom. 8:30), constituted complete at the cross (Rom. 5:18), and declared by the faith of Christ imparted to our souls (Rom. 3:26b).

    Looking at the Greek below and what I have highlighted in red will illustrate how illogical it is to translate the same Greek word as 'belief' in verse 26 and 'faith' in the other verses. The interlinear properly translates these as the same word.

    25 on <3739> {WHOM} proeqeto <4388> (5639) o <3588> {SET FORTH} qeoV <2316> {GOD} ilasthrion <2435> {A MERCY SEAT} dia <1223> thV <3588> {THROUGH} pistewV <4102> {FAITH} en <1722> tw <3588> {IN} autou <846> {HIS} aimati <129> {BLOOD,} eiV <1519> {FOR A} endeixin <1732> {SHOWING FORTH} thV <3588> {OF} dikaiosunhV <1343> {RIGHTEOUSNESS} autou <846> {HIS} dia <1223> {IN RESPECT OF} thn <3588> {THE} paresin <3929> {PASSING BY} twn <3588> {THE} progegonotwn <4266> (5761) {THAT HAD BEFORE TAKEN PLACE} amarthmatwn <265> {SINS} 26 en <1722> {IN} th <3588> {THE} anoch <463> {FORBEARANCE} tou <3588> {OF} qeou <2316> {GOD} proV <4314> {FOR [THE]} endeixin <1732> {SHOWING FORTH} thV <3588> {OF} dikaiosunhV <1343> {RIGHTEOUSNESS} autou <846> {HIS} en <1722> {IN} tw <3588> {THE} nun <3568> {PRESENT} kairw <2540> {TIME,} eiV <1519> to <3588> {FOR} einai <1511> (5750) {BEING} auton <846> {HIS} dikaion <1342> {JUST} kai <2532> {AND} dikaiounta <1344> (5723) {JUSTIFYING} ton <3588> {HIM THAT [IS]} ek <1537> {OF THE} pistewV <4102> {FAITH} ihsou <2424> {OF JESUS.} 27 pou <4226> {WHERE} oun <3767> {THEN [IS]} h <3588> {THE} kauchsiV <2746> {BOASTING?} exekleisqh <1576> (5681) {IT WAS EXCLUDED.} dia <1223> {THROUGH} poiou <4169> {WHAT} nomou <3551> {LAW?} twn <3588> {OF} ergwn <2041> {WORKS?} ouci <3780> {NO,} alla <235> {BUT} dia <1223> {THROUGH} nomou <3551> {A LAW} pistewV <4102> {OF FAITH.} 28 logizomeqa <3049> (5736) {WE RECKON} oun <3767> {THEREFORE} pistei <4102> {BY FAITH} dikaiousqai <1344> (5745) {TO BE JUSTIFIED} anqrwpon <444> {A MAN} cwriV <5565> {APART FROM} ergwn <2041> {WORKS} nomou <3551> {OF LAW.}

    The person that is 'of the faith of Jesus' in vs. 26b is not Jesus Christ himself.

    The passage is teaching that the law of faith in the believer's experience is the sole assurance and declaration of individual justification.
    Hey Bob,
    I think you will agree there is much debate on the translation of some of Paul's writings. I am not a greek scholar as I believe most on this web are not is like manner. I have been looking in particular at Galatians and Romans since I believe they are running along the same line in translation debates. My mom and daughter are coming in from Wichita, KS today and spending a week with me. I want to take the time to sit down and go through what I believe is going on in the verses you quoted. So if you will bear with me and give me the week with my family, I will answer this. I will be giving you quotes out of Richard B. Hays book along with the book:

    "The faith of Jesus Christ in early Christian traditions" by Ian G. Wallis.

    Also, here is a translation for now you can consider:

    3:21 But now God’s righteousness, attested by the law and the prophets, has been disclosed apart from the law, (22) [that is,] the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ’s faith for all those believing. For there is no distinction, (23) since all have sinned and lack the glory of God, (24) being justified freely by his grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, (25) whom God put forward as a means of expiation through [Jesus’] faith at the cost of [or by means of] his blood, to demonstrate [or prove] his righteousness in overlooking past sins (26) in the forebearance of God; to demonstrate his righteousness in the present time, in order to be righteous even in justifying the one [who lives] from Jesus’ faith [or the one participating in Jesus’ faith].

    This comes from Ian G. Wallis
    (I do not follow the new propestive of Paul camp by the way Bob.)

    This is why I said earlies in my statement that faith is a much richer word.

    John
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Also Bob, I think Paul defines his statement in Romans which says "we are justified by faith" in the book of Galatians which I believe was written before Romans. It is in Galatians 2:16:

    16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. KJV

    Net Bible
    2:16 yet we know49 that no one50 is justified by the works of the law51 but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ.52 And53 we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ54 and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one55 will be justified.

    The whole story is of a faithful representative as opposed to an unfaithful Adam and people in Adam. The last Adam is faithful, even unto death. I only see those that are said to be believing as identifiers of the ones whom where justified. You could say it in many ways: "the believing ones are justified," "the ones Christ died for are justified," or "the elect of God are justified". I only see the verses speaking of believing ones as identifying whom is being spoken of instead of a conditional statement. Must get ready to go to aiport. Thanks Bob.


    John
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    John, we are not going to agree on this--though I certainly respect your passion to know the truth.

    the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ’s faith for all those believing.

    This type of strained translation is the whole problem. 'Faith' and 'belief' are absolutely the same derivatives of PISTEUO in the Greek; they are not separate. And this is not an exact translation of Rom. 3:22 (what you have quoted here); it is sliced and diced. I suggest that "even the righteousness of God [possessed] through belief in Jesus Christ unto all and bestowed upon all who believe. For there is no difference" is a correct translation and context/emphasis.

    The "faith of Christ" theory if proposed as Chirist's objective faith can only lead to either 1) universalism OR 2) personal assurance of justification through personal works added to personal faith. You cannot have it both ways; it is either one position or the other. If those who propose Christ's personal faith as the basis of the justification of all mankind want to be consistent and state that all mankind will therefore be saved, then we can change our debate to that point. Otherwise it is superflouous.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    John, we are not going to agree on this--though I certainly respect your passion to know the truth.

    the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ’s faith for all those believing.

    This type of strained translation is the whole problem. 'Faith' and 'belief' are absolutely the same derivatives of PISTEUO in the Greek; they are not separate. And this is not an exact translation of Rom. 3:22 (what you have quoted here); it is sliced and diced. I suggest that "even the righteousness of God [possessed] through belief in Jesus Christ unto all and bestowed upon all who believe. For there is no difference" is a correct translation and context/emphasis.

    The "faith of Christ" theory if proposed as Chirist's objective faith can only lead to either 1) universalism OR 2) personal assurance of justification through personal works added to personal faith. You cannot have it both ways; it is either one position or the other. If those who propose Christ's personal faith as the basis of the justification of all mankind want to be consistent and state that all mankind will therefore be saved, then we can change our debate to that point. Otherwise it is superflouous.
    I'm confused. Okay if I am following this right most translations for these verses: Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16, 2:20, 3:22, Ephesians 3:11,12, Philippians 3:9, and Colossians 2:12 use the words "faith in Christ" Whereas seems the KJV always and maybe some others use "faith of Christ". So Bob is saying its always faith in Christ and John your saying its faith of Christ? Just trying to be clear here...

    Also then Bob so when it says in Galatians "Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ". So you are saying we are justified by our believing in Jesus Christ? I guess that makes sense.. I mean our belief comes from God... but I always think that we are justified by what Christ did and not our belief. I think that is what is confusing me. I used to interpret all of these verses in that we have faith in Christ, but that also Christ was faithful.. that He lived the perfect life and died in our place for our sins... and justified us at the cross.

    Hmm.. okay well I think I kind of get it now.. I think I just getting confused because the terminology is so closely related (besides the in and of part).

    Mary
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Mary: The issue here is whether justification has one, two, or three dimensions. I have already given my reasons for a tri-dimensional conviction and believe that Paul in Romans and Galatians supports it. The MERIT and BASIS of our justification is all in the righteousness of God manifested in Christ--we are all agreed upon that.

    1. Eternal Justification or justification purposed and made a complete reality in God's decree as if it were past (Rom. 8:30).
    2. Secured (Ratified) Justification or justification constituted complete in the perfect life (faithful obedience), atoning death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:18).
    3. Declared justification or God's faithful declaration that an INDIVIUAL ELECT believer is included in the first two above.

    It is on point #3 that some of us are disagreeing and I am saying that the objective 'faith OF Christ' point of view confuses #2 and #3 as if they were one and the same. If they are the same then we have to go with universalism as the only possible interpretation that is consistent with God's revelation. OR, horror of horrors, with a conditionalism that separates the objective faithfulness of Christ from our individual salvation in such a way that individual assurance is obtained through belief + obedient works.

    I do not believe that 'faith in Christ' is a literal translation where the genitive is used--but it is the EQUIVALENT of 'faith of Christ' if the subjective genitive is what is intended in context. Both the genitive OF and dative IN are used in Paul's argument throughout. The faith of Christ is the faith that comes from Christ, is owned by Christ, and placed by the Holy Spirit within us. Just as the words I'm writing right now come from me and are resident within this post. To say that such words are 'OF' me does not mean that they are not in some sense external to me.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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