Mary,Originally Posted by MCoving
Like I said, I was speaking to you in respect. So I will ask you this then:
1. What do you mean by faith is part of justification?
2. What do you mean by the statement I have underlined above which has to do with if a person never believes, he will not be saved? Is it their believing that is saving them? And if it is, what is it saving them from?
3. Are you saying that justification is a process?
John
The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill
Brandan,
There is a problem with this because it does not line up with Romans 5:18
Rom 5:18
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
So sin is charged to the whole human race. What did you and I have to do with that imputation? Nothing. Why, we were not even there that we could have a say in the matter. The good news of the gospel is contained in two words rendered “even so”. The two Greek words literally are read even in this manner. Paul is using the imputation of Adam’s sin to all his seed as a mere illustration of the imputation of the righteousness of the Last Adam to all His seed. That imputation of righteousness was even in this manner. That is, it was also a sovereign imputation.
John
The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill
If imputation of righteousness is not immanent and eternal, then where do the accounts of persons reside?
From my article addressing this topic:John Gill wrote:So it is in my opinion not the disagreement on the timing of imputation that has the potential to destroy unity in the Gospel, as imputation is an eternal and immanent act of God. But the real potential for disunity lies in the disagreement on the actual moment in time that imputation is based upon! Hopefully we can all agree that imputation is something that occurs in the mind of God and it is something that is transcendent of time as God Himself is timeless. If we can agree on that then we must strive to come to an understanding of exactly what period in time that all of imputation is based upon. There can be no such thing as multiple imputations as has been suggested by those who oppose justification from eternity because imputation is something that is timeless and occurs exclusively in the mind of God. Those like Scott who believe that imputation occurs in time (where?) at the point of an individual’s faith are wrong because they see imputation as a timely event. Based on my observations in Albany I also think that men like Ken Wimer, Steve Baloga, and David Simpson are also incorrect because they too fail to understand imputation as an immanent act of God. The issue should never be about the timing of imputation because imputation is not something that takes place in time as God is not a timely being.Active justification is the act of God; it is God that justifies. Passive justification [or declaration of righteouness - brandan] is the act of God, terminating on the conscience of a believer, commonly called a transient act, passing upon an external object. It is not of this I shall now treat, but of the former; which is an act internal and eternal, taken up in the divine mind from eternity, and is an immanent, abiding one in it; it is, as Dr. Ames {4} expresses it, "a sentence conceived in the divine mind, by the decree of justifying."
Now, as before observed, as God's will to elect, is the election of his people, so his will to justify them, is the justification of them; as it is an immanent act in God, it is an act of his grace towards them, is wholly without them, entirely resides in the divine mind, and lies in his estimating, accounting, and constituting them righteous, through the righteousness of his Son; and, as such, did not first commence in time, but from eternity.
http://www.pristinegrace.org/media.php?id=354This is augustinianism. Sorry, but I mean no offense, but it is my belief that God NEVER imputes sin to the elect. Romans 5 is only referring to Adam's representation of God's elect people in his transgressions. We've had numerous threads on the subject, so please refer back to them as a reference (and you'll note that you agreed with us on this topic - has your position changed recently?) John, I'm afraid Wimer's poisonous teachings are beginning to take root in you...
This is my signature.
Brandan,If imputation of righteousness is not immanent and eternal, then where do the accounts of persons reside?
From my article addressing this topic:
John Gill wrote:
This is augustinianism. Sorry, but I mean no offense, but it is my belief that God NEVER imputes sin to the elect. Romans 5 is only referring to Adam's representation of God's elect people in his transgressions. We've had numerous threads on the subject, so please refer back to them as a reference (and you'll note that you agreed with us on this topic - has your position changed recently?) John, I'm afraid Wimer's poisonous teachings are beginning to take root in you...
I don't think I am really changing my view as much as I am defining it even more. Romans 5 does speak of non imputation of our sin and that is exactly what I believe. When we speak of our being declared a sinner because of Adam, this is a different story. This cannot be denied. If Adams sin does not belong to you, then you should never sin or be a sinner. Christ died on the cross to remove the condemnation of the law which belongs to us as being in Adam. I hope you are not saying that this sin was never imputed to us. I will be the first to admit my mistake if I ever denied Adams sin as being ours. I am not sure why you would blame Ken Wimer for my views. If you look back in the thread about Faith which I debated with Chuck and another gentleman you will see that was my view on romans 3 and faithfulness. That has not changed. Ken Wimer has nothing to do with that.
I am not sure what you are asking in your first question.
John
The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill
Well, then we are in disagreement on another point as I do not believe Adam's sin is or ever was mine.
John, I asked the question because if imputation is not immanent (that is occuring solely in the mind of God which is transcendent of time), then the accounts of men must reside SOMEWHERE in time. Justification means that God puts to one's account the righteousness of Christ. If imputation is a timely event, then where do these "accounts" reside? If imputation is a timely event then it cannot be immanent because God (and thus His mind) is timeless. Please answer the question - I hope I was more clear. Thanks! - Brandan
This is my signature.
One thing that we all need to meditate upon and understand deeply is the extreme difference between our believing and God's believing!
1. God believes/trusts in His own purposes, works, merits, worth, and all things with regard to HIMSELF!
2. God's faithfulness in Christ consists of perfect obedience to His own law-covenant and complete non-participation in all sin and rebellion. God does not believe in the merits of another to cancel His own sin and provide salvation; if He has sin and the need of a savior He has no purposes, works, merits, worth, or faithfulness that we can rely upon!
In contrast,
1. The elect believe/trust completely in SOMEONE ELSE's purposes, works, merits, worth, atonement, and salvation provision! They have an infinite NEED of a savior due to their own damning sin/guilt.
2. The faith of the elect consists in turning from their own works in obedience to ANY law with abhorrence of them and believing in the merits of another to cancel their sin and provide salvation.
The only continuity between God's faith and ours (Christ's working in us) is that we both have confidence in the same person and work!
On the matter of declared justification, it simply can't be denied in scripture. Abraham was declared just before the cross according to Paul in Rom. 4. The publican was declared just in Christ's parable when he called upon the Lord for mercy. Jesus said that there is rejoicing in heaven when one soul repents.
I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott
First please excuse me for anything that isn't perfectly clear... I'll do my best however I came down with a really bad flu or something, and have to teach tomorrow (long story why)... so lets see...
1. By faith I mean a persons belief.. that is faith is mere assent to the Truth, right? So if God never causes someone to have faith.. never causes belief in an individual then there's no justification. OH! haha okay I see my error. There would never have been any justification if one never believed. Hmm maybe I could say it better by saying that believing in God is a result of our justification. Cause and effect. The cause being Christ dieing for His sheep and the effect being His sheep having faith (believing in the Truth). So there cant ONLY be faith of Christ. It makes sense to interpret the verses as faith in Christ, believing in Christ. The latter wouldn't make sense... faith of Christ is JUST Jesus being faithful... doesn't have anything to do with His Sheep's faith (believing). With His sheep having their eyes and ears opened by God. That make sense?
2. No it is not their believing that is saving them. It is Gods work, Christs death.. God declaring them free from sin, and His children. That is what saves them. But believing must happen... its part of Gods plan. He will give His children eyes to see and ears to hear. Thats all I mean.
3. Am I saying that justification is a process? I dont think so... I think I meant that it was finished at the cross.. But part of Gods plan of redemption does include us believing in it, right? He gives us faith. There is eternal justification I believe in that... in time Jesus died on the cross, and in time we believe in it. But we have always been saved from eternity. Maybe its more of a result of justification.. either way its going to happen. Thats what I mean.
4. Also, you talked about imputation some.. I dont believe Adam's sins were imputed to us elect. We have always been seen as righteous and Gods children before the world began. How could God have loved us before we were born if we didn't have Christ in us? God hates sin.. He would of had to have hated us too if we had Adams sin imputed to us, wouldn't He? But He never does.. He always sees us as His Children.. saved by Christ at the cross. Also this verse is good:
Ps 32:2, (NASB), How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit!
And lastly... I know you didn't mean any disrespect John I am just tired of hearing comments 'bout how I just blindly follow Brandan or Bob.. or be careful that I dont.. just tired of hearing that. I have been reading my Bible.. and I have come across verses that they haven't talked about. I may get an idea from the forum... but the Bible is what proves it to me or disproves it. I'm sure that is the same for others.. we do get ideas, doctrines from others... but we use the Word to try and test all things.
Anyways.. I got to get some rest and water... and hope I can make it through tomorrow. Night.
A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom
Bob,
I am not sure why you are stuck on this fiath that belongs to Christ as being what I am talking about. I am only speaking of the word faith in the sense of Christ's faithfulness in obedience to God the Father. The quote I wrote was to mainly show that this is a very fifficult translation and that is it. So I am not sure why we are centered on the believing of Christ. yes, it all is part of His faithfulness but much more than that.
John
The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill
Mary,
Thank you for your answers. The reason I ask you these is to try to put your mind in the same place as mine. That seems to me the best way to explain things on forums.
1. Perfect. Now, since this believing is the effect of the life and death of Christ on the cross, why do we want to always make our justification (salvation) conditional (if we don’t believe we will not be saved.)? We have to look at it as if a person don’t believe because they were never meant to believe (don’t get the idea I am saying this is everything that you are believing. I am working this out in writing). Our faith(trust, reliance, believing, etc.) is all part of the spiritual gifts spoken of in Eph. 1 and purchased (or will be purchased for OT saints- this is God’s forbearance) which was given to us before the foundation of the world. Of course we know that our believing does not occur in time until the fullness of time determined by God. Our believing the gospel as preached to us is a tool of God and all that is included in conversion is the way in which God has chosen and ordained in which to open our eyes to see the beauty of Christ and what He has done for us. Question: Does God use the Gospel to save people from condemnation, or from darkness, or from sinning? Which do you think is being spoken of when the word speaks of you must believe to be saved? This is where I differ from many. My believing saves me from the slavery of sin, from blindness, from stupidity. I am translated into the kingdom of light. In other words I am not being moved from hell to heaven, but from the kingdom of darkness (slave to blindness and ignorance-dead) to the kingdom of light. There was never some physical movement of my soul, but my dead state was changed. My salvation from the condemnation of the law happened at the cross (I was saved by the blood). This is how I can look at any elect that die at birth. Why do I have to make some excuse for God in that he somehow makes little babies understand the gospel, etc? I believe this is how David could say that he knew he would see his son again is because God somehow assured David of the child being God’s. If I am saved from condemnation at the cross, what kind of salvation would be left?
Our believing has nothing to do with influencing the work, only to see the work (I hope this made sense because it is all God’s work). By the way, if this is what you mean by declaring you are just, then I agree. Also Eileen, this is what I meant by the statement that men make too much of this human faith. I was not downplaying it in the importance of it being part of God’s work.
The declaration I am speaking of is:
The law has declared us guilty and condemned. When Christ died, he cried it is finished and that tells me that all He was sent to do for us in time has been completed. This means that what the law declared has been satisfied by Christ. The curtain was ripped symbolizing a reconciliation between God and us (we are no longer His enemy. Now, remember, we still hate Him and are at war with him in our own minds until our new birth.). The law no longer has a claim on me because it has been satisfied. The law now declares me just (righteous). I am no longer under the law (its condemnation).
Now I want what I put down to apply to what you ask me also Brandan.
I see justification, our righteousness, etc….all as designed and completed by decree (in God’s mind) just as I have always said. We cannot down play what occurs in time. It is there for us. God has designed – built and planned every occurrence of every action, etc, in His mind (speaking humanly). All that God has decreed, He will do in time. We know this has to happen. It is the fulfilling of His decree. All that we see in scripture is the playing out of this decree. It is written down in scripture for us to see and understand all (what He wants us to know) that He is doing and will do (in time) and to see who He is and to understand what He has planned and purposed.
Even though we understand this as fulfilled in God’s mind, He still needs to bring bout the effect of His plan. Remember what you said, without causes their can be no effect. All things God has purposed have to run their course in time for His planned effect.
So, when we see in scripture that we were cursed because of the sin of our representative Adam, that is exactly what is meant. We need to see how God has already worked it out. This is not for Him but for us. (It has to be played out because it is finished in God’s mind.) If it is not played out exactly as decreed, we have no God there can be no fulfillment of the end (which God has already declared). Just because in the mind of God it is all complete, it is not complete in time and for us. We must fulfill it just as Jesus said about going to the cross. Isa. 53 is in the future tense for OT saints, but not for God. This is how I keep this all separate in my mind. We have to pay attention to life as it moves forward even when we know that the end is already in God’s mind (because of course He designed the end already).
We must go through time and understand everything that occurs even though in the background we know that God has already completed the end (psalm 139- my life is written in a book). That is why I have this assurance that God will do as He says in scripture. Everything we see in scripture is real time for us, even though we know that God has completed it in His mind. I don’t know how all this eternity part plays with time running as it does but I know at least what the word says.
It is like the story of Hezekiah in 2 kings 20. He was told he was going to die and to put his house in order. We look at this story and say to ourselves because of His weeping and prayer God granted to him healing and extending his life. We should look at it that way I believe because God wants us to gain an understanding of His mercy. Otherwise it makes no sense to look at it in a way that looks like God changed His mind but to say it can’t be because God doesn’t change His mind. We must look at it as a life lesson of how God is merciful and understand that this was always the intended outcome – cause and effect once again. There never was a changing of God’s mind or never were we to think that. God was not deceitful in telling him he was going to die, and then not taking his life. He was showing His mercy and love for His people. This was the whole purpose using causes to bring an effect. (I hope this made sense to you.) This is how I look at all of scripture when processing God’s plan of redemption. Example 2: Scripture tells us we were condemned by the law and the wrath of God abides on us. I believe in time this scripture is true because it says so in God’s word. Do I believe that we would go to hell if we didn’t do something (turn or burn), NO. Scripture also tells us we were not destined for the wrath of God. So here I have what some might call contradictions, but to me it is a wonderful assurance. Because by nature, I am a child of wrath, Christ in the fullness of time came and took that wrath, so that the scripture might be fulfilled – we are not destined for wrath.
We really have to look at it as God condemned His people in Adam as the architect put His design into motion (speaking humanly) in time. Yes, in the eternal mind it is complete because He has determined the end from the beginning. For us it is not.
I hope this helps in seeing where my mind is. I have to look at the cross in time not in eternity when I am trying to understand what God did. I have to look at what Adam did to understand why I am what I am and Christ had to come. I have to look at the cross to see how a just God can justify me. And finally I have to look at the faithful servant, Jesus Christ, to see how He brought this all about. Because Christ was obedient even unto death, I have been justified. I have to look at the process of God’s bringing me back to life after being dead all my life. This process of being brought to life (new birth, repentance, faith – believing, etc.) is to show me that I was always His and also to know His love, grace, mercy and His faithfulness.
Now, for #3:
That is what this is all about. The law no longer can condemn us. We have been declared as just because of Christ. I have to look at it this way so I understand what God has already done in His plan. This is what is meant when in Titus God says:
Titus 1:2
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
We see God promised us eternal life before the foundation of the world. Yes we have eternal life as far as God is concerned. We know that we will have this life because we believe what God promised. We believe what God promises because of this wonderful knowledge of God having already completed it in His mind. This is the knowledge given to us by the Holy spirit in our conversion (our believing). Abraham believed God and this was counted as righteousness. I believe this is not talking about the outside righteousness given to us at the cross, but what W.E. Best calls faith-righteousness. This is the obedience worked out in us by God. This is also what is spoken of in Psalm 106:31 involving the story of Phinehas. He was jealous for the Holiness of God and run a spear through a whore and one of the Jews and God counted it as righteousness. You can read the whole story in Numbers 25 I believe.
Thanks for your patience.
John
The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill
So, if this accounting you as in Adam is not part of your theology, then you need to consider this:
1. If Adams sin has nothing to do with us, how/why did you and I receive a corrupt nature?
2. Why do/did you ever need a savior if there is nothing to be saved from since what Adam did does not effect you?
3. If Adams corruption does not effect you, then are you saying you become corrupted by inheritance from your parents through sex?
John
The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill
Because God determined to create a sinful group of elect people that would be redeemed in Christ.
I am saved from my own sin that God created in me.
We've had threads on this as well. We deny traducianism but instead affirm creationism - God creates evil in each of His elect people.
This is my signature.
John, I am saying again that if I believed that all of the human biological race were destined to ultimate salvation I could believe in what you are saying. Otherwise it is a logical monstrosity and provides no assurance at all.
If OUR faith (which I believe is Christ's faith by ownership and creation) is not something unique to a less than full number of created humanity, then justification is totally and finally at the cross and has NO personal dimension beyond that.
I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott
John:
I am not sure why you are stuck on this fiath that belongs to Christ as being what I am talking about.
It is not what YOU are talking about, it is what I am talking about in contrast to your arguments!
I am only speaking of the word faith in the sense of Christ's faithfulness in obedience to God the Father. The quote I wrote was to mainly show that this is a very fifficult translation and that is it.
It is not a difficult translation for me. Unless one is determined to deny that OUR believing is an integral part of the New Testament message, it is quite simple. Our believing is not faithfulness in obedience in imitation of Christ (like HIS is--Rom. 3:3) but complete abandonment of our works in reliance upon the merits of His perfect life and death in payment for our sins.
So I am not sure why we are centered on the believing of Christ. yes, it all is part of His faithfulness but much more than that.
There is no difference in PISTEUO; belief and faith (or faithfulness) are one and the same in the New Testament! Whether it is talking about Christ or us!
I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott
Wow! You sure write alot. I dont know if I can follow everything you said perfectly. First I am not making our justification (salvation) conditional, I am merely saying that God has given us eyes to see and ears to hear. Now you brought up the baby point, course if a baby is God's child and they die they will go to Heaven, whether they comprehend or speak of Gods Gospel. For I do believe that it was finished at the cross, that we were saved from our sinful natures.. and seperation from God at the cross. First techinically we were justified in eternity in the mind of God.. but that justification included the cross. Though I also believe at some point in a person's life (obviously when they get past the baby state) that God will open their eyes and ears. That God will give them faith, and they will believe in Christ.
Bob also made a good point that justification is personal. Its not just about the faith of God but it is about us. We are God's children.. and when we do get old enough to understand God will open our eyes to see that we are His.. we are part of His family. That is why I have no problem in interpretting those verses as faith in Christ or believing in Christ. Let's look at some of those verses again... and not just the one verse but the whole context. Please read Galatians 2:15-21. Here's 16 and first your KJV
Galatians 2:16:
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by thefaith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. KJV
NASB Galatians 2:16 " nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law, since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified"
First Paul is talking to the Jews, and talking about works. They think it is their works that justify them. Whereas Paul says it is not that.. but by believing. EVEN your KJV says believing! " even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified" So if you believe faith as mere assent to the Truth, as believing in the Truth.. than even KJV says there's a personal aspect to justification.. Christ died for specific people.. "we have believed in Christ Jesus that we might be justified" That is connecting belief with justification. Since Christ made us right and got rid of our sins on the cross then we will have faith, and belief..
Plus I was also told once that the KJV when written didn't have the dead sea scroll manuscripts... is that right? That the translation is off some.. and NASB or such is closer?
Also what about the rest of Galatians?? Chapter 3 talks about faith.. not the faith of Jesus but the faith in us.. the faith we have in Christ, in believing. Kinda leads me to believe that KJV did interpret some of the previous verses wrong if it then says this:
Gal 3:26, (KJV), For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Hmm... we are children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. There's that personal part of justification... so couldn't the other verse also be read this way? Like NASB has it? "that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus"
Also what do you think of this verse?
Rom 9:32, (KJV), Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Would you say that is faith of Jesus? Or their own personal faith (which of course is a gift of God). How can one seek righteousness by the faith of Jesus? "they sought it not by the faith of Jesus" makes no sense. I believe the contrast is personal faith.. faith in Christ vrs works.. the law. I believe that contrast is also in Galations.. it is not the faith of Christ vrs works of the law.. but personal faith, belief in Christ vrs the works of the Law.
Sorry I think that was long.. and pry said before but I dont believe John that all of Galatians 2 is saying faith of Christ. But also I dont believe that it's saying one has to believe or they wont be justified.. that would be a condition. I wouldn't twist those verses around like the arminians do.
I'll address your other responses later.. possibly, this is long enough.
Mary
A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom
You first Mary. First you can see how confusing what I have underlined in bold is. What do you mean that Paul was showing that instead of being justified by works they were being justified by their believing.
OK Mary, let us look at these verses you have chosen and you tell me how you come to the conclusion that the KJV is incorrect in its translation as opposed to the NASB. We will start with Galatians 3:26:
26 For <1063> ye are <2075> (5748) all <3956> the children <5207> of God <2316> by <1223> faith <4102> in <1722> Christ <5547> Jesus <2424>. KJV
pi,stij pistis {pis'-tis} evn en {en} Cristo,j Christos {khris-tos'}
faith in Christ
First notice that the greek word is in the original which can be defined as in.
1722 evn en {en}
Meaning: 1) in, by, with etc.
Origin: a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); TDNT - 2:537,233; prep
Usage: AV - in 1874, by 141, with 134, among 117, at 112, on 46, through 37, misc 321; 2782
Misc: Wigram's frequency count is 2798 not 2782.
One of Paul’s letters written before or around the same time as Romans. Why would Paul not use this same phrase as here in other parts scripture.
The following is the definition of the greek word KJ translates as by. But as you can see, it could be different. I have seen different translations used. I am only proving to you that context has to be not only around the verse but all of God’s word.
1223 dia, dia {dee-ah'}
Meaning: 1) through 1a) of place 1a1) with 1a2) in 1b) of time 1b1) throughout 1b2) during 1c) of means 1c1) by 1c2) by the means of 2) through 2a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done 2a1) by reason of 2a2) on account of 2a3) because of for this reason 2a4) therefore 2a5) on this account
Origin: a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; TDNT - 2:65,149; prep
Usage: AV - by 241, through 88, with 16, for 58, for ... sake 47, therefore + 5124 44, for this cause + 5124 14, because 53, misc 86; 647
Next let’s look at the other verse you used in Galatians since it would be in the context of the same book.
16 Knowing <1492> (5761) that <3754> a man <444> is <1344> <0> not <3756> justified <1344> (5743) by <1537> the works <2041> of the law <3551>, but <3362> by <1223> the faith <4102> of Jesus <2424> Christ <5547>, even <2532> we <2249> have believed <4100> (5656) in <1519> Jesus <2424> Christ <5547>, that <2443> we might be justified <1344> (5686) by <1537> the faith <4102> of Christ <5547>, and <2532> not <3756> by <1537> the works <2041> of the law <3551>: for <1360> by <1537> the works <2041> of the law <3551> shall <1344> <0> no <3756> <3956> flesh <4561> be justified <1344> (5701).
pi,stij pistis {pis'-tis} VIhsou/j Iesous {ee-ay-sooce'} Cristo,j Christos {khris-tos'}
Faith Jesus Christ
If you notice, there is no greek word for the word in. Why is this? Is it because Paul can just leave it out and everyone will know that is what he meant? Or did the Holy Spirit write this verse differently for a reason. Maybe Bob knows but for more than 200 years men have been debating this. What you really need to do Mary is make sure you can do as Paul writes and check the things you are being taught. I have to tell you that I have been studying this for a year and even though I believe completely different than Bob and Brandan, I do keep my mind open and am constantly checking these things because the are difficult to translate according to the expert Greek translators. They even disagree on how this should be translated.
As I have shown in the thread earlier
we might be justified <1344> (5686) by <1537> the faith <4102> of Christ <5547>,
1344 dikaio,w dikaioo {dik-ah-yo'-o}
Meaning: 1) to render righteous or such he ought to be 2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered 3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
Origin: from 1342; TDNT - 2:211,168; v
Usage: AV - justify 37, be freed 1, be righteous 1, justifier 1; 40
In the original 'that we might be justified' is actually 'having been justified.' Faith is the evidence of one HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY THE FAITH OF CHRIST.
Now, please tell me how you came to the conclusion that everywhere you see faith of Christ, you can change it to faith in Christ. I know why Bob does it but why do you think it is correct?
Now I will give you another verse and you tell me what you think faith means and why?
23 But <1161> before <4253> faith <4102> came <2064> (5629), we were kept <5432> (5712) under <5259> the law <3551>, shut up <4788> (5772) unto <1519> the faith <4102> which should afterwards <3195> (5723) be revealed <601> (5683).
John
The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill
Brandan,
I know what you believe here. The post was for Mary, sorry. But, with that said I will tell you that I remember when you changed from the doctrine of the representation of the 1st Adam and last Adam. I remember reading and rereading how you and Bob came to this theory but I just could not see it myself. That is fine for debate and discussion. I cannot see the support for this in scripture myself. I can only see the representation of Adam in our condemnation. I cannot see anything else there.
Rom 5:18
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. KJV
Among other scriptures I cannot see this any different than what is taught by reformed men about representation.
I have no problem with you coming to that conclusion, but I would ask for the same respect from you and Bob.
Bob said: John, I am saying again that if I believed that all of the human biological race were destined to ultimate salvation I could believe in what you are saying. Otherwise it is a logical monstrosity and provides no assurance at all.
I think this is only a man's opinion without scripture to support it and that is all.
I do thank you though for posting questions for supporting what I believe is what scripture says. That is what I think is good about working through these issues. I am not on this forum to try and make everyone believe what I do, but I voice my theology and allow challenges to keep me searching scriptures to see what I say is true.
Anyway, I still see no reason to abandon the doctrine of the representation of Adam in scripture.
John
The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill
I said: First you can see how confusing what I have underlined in bold is. What do you mean that Paul was showing that instead of being justified by works they were being justified by their believing.
A wanted to ask you also Mary, why would Paul compare justification in the way you are speaking.
Would he compare our keeping the law to our believing?
1 John 3:23
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
This sounds like a command to me.
Or is he comparing our attempting to keep the law as sinful men or the faithfulness in obedience of the Righteous sinless Son of God. You be the judge.
John
The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill
No Mary, I would not say this is faith of Jesus. Why would you think I would say that. This is exactly as it says. The Jews were looking for righteousness in their works. They stumbled because they were not looking for righteousness of Christ.
"they did not seek for righteousness in a right place, or object, they sought for it in the law, and the works of it, where it is never to be found by a sinful creature, and not in Christ, in whom only are righteousness and strength; so they did not seek for it in a right way, by faith in Christ, without which it is impossible to please God, and by which only true righteousness is discerned and received:" as John Gill quotes.
So what is your point. I don't see how this verse has anything to do with what we are discussing. I have never claimed nor will claim that faith cannot mean believing in parts of scripture. Show me where I said this. I only claim that the greek word for our english faith is used in many different ways like the word world. Translation from greek into english is not as smooth as many so called experts say. For example, the hebrew word for what we in the english call cherubum does not have an english word. Some call it cherubum, some call it the winged ones, the jewish bible in english actually leaves it in the Hebrew.
My point is faith does not mean believing all through the OT or NT like you have been told. Many places it does, and other places it does not. I am only saying in oposition to Bob that there is much more to it than that.
John
The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill
John,
I dont really know what else to say, I believe what I do. Yes some of God's Word does talk about faith of Christ.. how He was perfect and obedient even to death on the cross. And yes God's Word also talks about having faith in Christ, believing in what He did for His sheep. You have made a strong position and some things to think about over the Scriptures that have been given. I'll continue to think about it. But the just simple idea that Jesus was faithful, that we are justified, that we do have faith in Christ because of God opening our eyes I will always believe. So I really have no problem in reading the verse as "so we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law". I have no problem in the way the NASB writes these verses.. where they us faith in Christ, instead of how KJV uses faith of Christ. I know it is not our faith apart from God but it is His gift.. He has given us the ability to believe in Him. I know that we were declared not guilty before the world began, eternal justification. And I believe that Christ finished this declaration in time at the cross and the result of Him taking our sins away is us believing in Him. Before we were born God loved us.. while we were sinners God loved us. So we have always been justified.. but having faith and believing is just that justification being seen in time. More so the result of all Christ did for us on the cross. So when I say that John you have faith in Christ, or that I have faith in Christ, and because John you believe in Christ and you have faith.. you have that mental assent to the Truth than I can know for sure that you and I are a child of God. See it has nothing to do with works. Faith is mere assent to the Truth. And I think that is partly what Paul was getting at in Galatians.
Our faith is from God, our faith is due to Christ's faith and His death. Salvation is by faith alone and not by any works that man does.. our believing isn't even a work of man but of God, it is given by God. That is how I see these verses in Galatians.. it is talking about all of that. No I dont know it all, I dont even know Greek or that stuff that well, I just read Gods Word and I pray that His Spirit is teaching me what is right. I may be wrong.. you may be wrong.. I guess we'll see someday.. for now though I am pretty certain that what I believe is right. so I'll stick with it.
And yes I also believe that we are sinful by nature, that we did not share in the sins of Adam. We were found guilty because of our sin, because of being humans and made not perfect. Wasn't because of what Adam did.. thus we needed to be saved from our sinful nature. Christ saved us from our sinful nature, and the wrath of God.. because he hates sin. So though that post of yours was for me and not Brandan he answered it the same way I would have.
Thanks for your interaction I really dont know what else to say.. I think its all been pretty much talked about now. Take care and hope you are enjoying Maine!! God bless
Mary
A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom
Okay so I was reading back on what Bob wrote.. and John I do have another question I just thought of. If you think these verses are talking about faith of Christ. What about our personal faith? Do you believe we have a personal faith? a faith sovereignly coming from or given by Jesus Christ?
Also, if we didn't have faith how can someone be certain they are justified by Christ? Is not having faith in Christ proof that He died on the cross for our sins? So I still think its perfectly ok to say "nevetheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus". I know its not a condition for salvation.. its a result of our salvation.
I also agree with how Bob said this.. I was trying to say this in my last posts, about works vrs faith. If you read the context Paul is talking about our personal faith... about how someone knows they are justified, they are God's children. It's not by our works but by our faith, which comes from God.
He wrote this:Anyways.. so what if I agree with Bob? Its true its how I see it written in Gods Word. Plus he just says it better and clearer than I do. Anyways.. I think these have all been discused well now. Thanks! Take care
Mary
ps: sorry just easier to add here than other places.. Also why would it matter if Christ had faith in Himself? Does it really matter that Christ has faith in His atoning of sins on the cross? I think its more important that we are given faith from God in what Christ did.. right?
A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom
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