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Thread: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Quote Originally Posted by MCoving View Post
    Okay John so taking those verses. Is it wrong to interpret the verse the way NASB does? Do you think its wrong or looses some meaning? I dont.. I actually think its a little stronger. Instead of just saying we have access to God because of how faithful Christ is.. WITHOUT referencing anything about us believing in that Truth or not (hence I think this is where the whole unversialism aspect Bob was talking about comes in) the NASB version refernces our believing (course is God opening our eyes).


    Mary
    Mary,
    It is not about if it looses some meaning or can it not say it in a different way. It is about what did Paul want his readers to understand. What is Pauls meaning, not what comes close.

    I have no idea what you mean by the statement WITHOUT referencing anything .... This does not make sense to me. Sorry.

    John
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgipson View Post
    As you say Bryan, there is gymnastics going on and this is what you are doing. Please refer me any other writing you have proving your theory other than Bob and I will reconsider it. Bryan, I believe you know what two seed theory I am talking about. It is more than the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. You know I follow the two types of mankind, sheep and goat, etc. Thanks

    John
    Hi John, glad to see you posting this much.
    John 8:44 You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and did not abide in the truth..., he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.
    For this verese to be true, Satan could not have fallen he was reprobate from the beginning. Also, he is then the progenitor of all reprobates since he is their father. Hence two seeds.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlyfavored View Post
    Hi John, glad to see you posting this much.For this verese to be true, Satan could not have fallen he was reprobate from the beginning. Also, he is then the progenitor of all reprobates since he is their father. Hence two seeds.
    Hey Greg,
    Finally got my dormer built and my bedroom is much bigger now. Now just working on wood floors.

    I agree about Satan. I never changed my view of this part of the 2 seeds. I am not sure how we got this far away from the the original thread, but I guess that is how things end up as rabbit trails. As I was saying earlier somewhere in here, whewww, alot of Bobs theory on the 2 seeds is fascinating and I can except and understand through scripture. Other parts I cannot support in scripture and as I said that is fine. I still believe that all men are represented by Adam. When we are speaking of Satan, we are now speaking of a complete different creation. He is not connected to man except as a slavemaster. I am not sure how we can see a spiritual creation of a different type than man as a representative. I just cannot connect this. Thanks for your reply Greg. Hope all is goinig well.

    John
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    This thread has gone in a different direction so I think I will get back to my studies. I jumped in on this one because this has been part of my major study for approx. 1 year. I have found it very fascinating and rewarding going through this study. I have found alot more support for how the KJV and earlier bibles translate the verses Faith of Christ as opposed to newer translations faith in Christ. Anyway, I want to get back to that study. I just don't have the time for where this is going even though it is interesting. Thanks everyone for allowing me to have my input.

    John
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgipson View Post
    Roger,
    Thanks for you input. Do I believe that God's men are condemned to hell before they believe or anyother time. No. Thessalonians tells us that we were not appointed to wrath.

    But, that being said, does not the law condemn us before Christ? I say believe Romans 8:1 actually does tell us that before Christ went to the cross, the law condemned us. Look carefuly at it:

    There is therefore now no condemnation

    Paul as you know is looking after the Christ has satisfied the law. The NOW means alot here. Before Christ came, the law condemned us. After Christ came there is therefore no condemnation.

    John

    Gill does not take the word "now" as an adverb regarding time. In simple terms, Gill takes the meaning of condemnation here and in 5:18 as a judicial sentencing. His view is that all humanity comes under the death sentence (spiritual) in Adam and that the elects' death sentence is borne by Christ in substitutionary atonement.

    Again, taking this meaning into the verses gives us:

    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation (the sentence of eternal death); even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (eternal life).

    This leaves us with universalism if we take the all to mean all men without distinction in both uses here.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no (sentence of eternal death) condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    The only way these verses can be reconciled (using consistent definitions of terms) is if we understand the "all" to mean the objects of Paul's letter in every case--the elect ones. Else, we have to do gymnastics--which I have also tried to justify by scripture. Thanks for the opportunity.

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    Wink Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Quote Originally Posted by rlhuckle View Post
    Gill does not take the word "now" as an adverb regarding time. In simple terms, Gill takes the meaning of condemnation here and in 5:18 as a judicial sentencing. His view is that all humanity comes under the death sentence (spiritual) in Adam and that the elects' death sentence is borne by Christ in substitutionary atonement.

    Again, taking this meaning into the verses gives us:

    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation (the sentence of eternal death); even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (eternal life).

    This leaves us with universalism if we take the all to mean all men without distinction in both uses here.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no (sentence of eternal death) condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    The only way these verses can be reconciled (using consistent definitions of terms) is if we understand the "all" to mean the objects of Paul's letter in every case--the elect ones. Else, we have to do gymnastics--which I have also tried to justify by scripture. Thanks for the opportunity.
    Well, I guess I can't believe every word of Gill anymore, huh. There are others who do define this word that way.

    You guys are really confusing me now. How do you really want to take these verses. Lets see now:

    The same greek word for condemnation is used. Not sure which definition we want to use. If all men (every person) is in adam, it must mean eternal condemnation, but if all men (the elect only) are in Adam, then we must be speaking of some other condemnation. So then of course I have to make sure I can apply it to Rom. 8:1.

    I have no problem using the same definition. All can be used the same meaning everyone whom God placed in Adam, and everyone whom God placed in Christ (before the foundation of the world). Condemnation is spoken of in the same way. The Law condemns every single sinner. Condemnation by the law falls on every person and that condemnation is only removed for those in Christ. I am not seeing your theology at least at this time. Maybe I don't understand what the death of Christ means to the way your thinking, I don't know.

    John
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Quote Originally Posted by rlhuckle View Post
    Gill does not take the word "now" as an adverb regarding time. In simple terms, Gill takes the meaning of condemnation here and in 5:18 as a judicial sentencing. His view is that all humanity comes under the death sentence (spiritual) in Adam and that the elects' death sentence is borne by Christ in substitutionary atonement.

    Again, taking this meaning into the verses gives us:

    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation (the sentence of eternal death); even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (eternal life).

    This leaves us with universalism if we take the all to mean all men without distinction in both uses here.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no (sentence of eternal death) condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    The only way these verses can be reconciled (using consistent definitions of terms) is if we understand the "all" to mean the objects of Paul's letter in every case--the elect ones. Else, we have to do gymnastics--which I have also tried to justify by scripture. Thanks for the opportunity.

    NOW, no condemnation

    In this passage the word is nun. Abbott-Smith(Greek Lexicon of NT) says that it is used “properly of time, now, i.e. at the present time: as opposed to past…[or] future” (p. 306).

    I can find no where the strongs number 2631 damnation means eternal (Page 833 of Spiros Zodhiatess Complete wordstudy dictionary.)

    In these 3 verses Rom 5:16; 5:18; 8:1 it is defined as: A decision against someone, a condemnatory judgment. Only used in Romans 5:16, 5:18, 8:1

    So I don’t know where you get this.

    So as I said above, I see no problem with it defined the same: a decision against someone, a condemnatory judgment. But now, there is no condemnation
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgipson View Post
    Well, I guess I can't believe every word of Gill anymore, huh. There are others who do define this word that way.

    You guys are really confusing me now. How do you really want to take these verses. Lets see now:

    The same greek word for condemnation is used. Not sure which definition we want to use. If all men (every person) is in adam, it must mean eternal condemnation, but if all men (the elect only) are in Adam, then we must be speaking of some other condemnation.
    That is what is at issue: is every single living soul included in Paul's usage of the word "all" in this verse. Many assume it to be the case because of experience--we have seen that all men appear to die experientially; however, we were not witnesses to Enoch and Elijah and Christ's return has not occurred.




    Quote Originally Posted by jmgipson View Post
    So then of course I have to make sure I can apply it to Rom. 8:1.

    If we accept Gill's usage of the word translated condemnation (the death sentence itself -not including its actual fulfillment), then both passages are easier to reconcile (not that easier is the standard, but it does less gymnastics with the text).

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgipson View Post
    I have no problem using the same definition. All can be used the same meaning everyone whom God placed in Adam, and everyone whom God placed in Christ (before the foundation of the world).
    Right, but what is our Scriptural justification for assigning the universal to the first part and the limited to the second part--what we believe to be our experience again?


    Quote Originally Posted by jmgipson View Post
    Condemnation is spoken of in the same way. The Law condemns every single sinner. Condemnation by the law falls on every person and that condemnation is only removed for those in Christ. I am not seeing your theology at least at this time. Maybe I don't understand what the death of Christ means to the way your thinking, I don't know.

    John
    There are different terms that are translated "condemnation" in the various passages. In some it may refer to the death sentence, in others it refers to physical death, while in others it refers to the spiritual. If we accept that God has always loved the elect, they were never under His condemnation at any time because God accepted Christ's sacrifice as the fulfillment of the sentence He had placed upon them.

    It makes more sense to me to think of all of the elect as under the sentence of death and Christ fulfills the sentence on our behalf. The reprobate are not under the sentence of death--they ARE dead already; it doesn't make sense to me to think of God sentencing a dead man to death again although a case might be made in regards to two sentences--one to physical death and another to the second death. This opens up another can of worms in regards to definitions of terms does it not?

    Anyway, thanks for the opportunity to look at these verses in the various ways that they are/have been understood. I also will continue to look at them and seek the Holy Spirit's guidance.

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgipson View Post
    Brandan,
    What happen to Milt? I have been off so long remodeling that I have not seen him. I would love to hear him here.

    John
    Hi John, Milt left the forum over doctrinal differences. He was not asked to leave, and I wasn't aware there were any differences until he left. You can always e-mail him if you'd like more information regarding his departure. That is all I really have to say about that. - Brandan
    This is my signature.

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    Re: "faith in Christ" vs "faith of Christ"

    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer View Post
    Alright John, I will make 1 other attempt at this, you say that you hold to the view here in romans 5 that adam represented the entire human race, head for head, no exceptions........right? Because adam sinned.....every single human being is what the scripture is talking about here in Romans 5, and that is all that "all" can mean in the context here right?

    Okay, I'll quote it that way then, I have an ESV at hand, so I will use that......using your interpretation....NOT my own of the text, this is what it sounds like

    Verse 12.....Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all (every single human to ever exist) men because adam sinned- for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from adam to moses, even over those (every single human to ever exist) whose sinning was the transgression of adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
    But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many (every single human to ever exist?) died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for the many (every single human to ever exist?) And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation (to who?every human ever created), but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification (to who? every human ever created). If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. THEREFORE, as one trespass led to condemnation for all (every single human to ever exist) men, so one act of righteousness leads to to justification and life for all (every single human to ever exist) men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many (every single human to ever exist) were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many (every single human to ever exist) will be made righteous.

    Now I know that you have never said that every single human will be in the new heaven and earth and that the lake of fire will be empty (univeralism)........however, to try and do linguistic gymnastics with the words "all" and "many" in the context would be to do an injustice to the text.
    I don t think that it is ambiguous to anyone, lets say to start with verse 15 that the "many" is the same "many" all through the ONE sentence.
    verse 18 is the same..........you cant honestly say that "all" in the 1st part of the sentence is completely different than "all" in the 2nd half of the sentence.
    If I try to re-word verse 18 for example, because I believe what you do, then I would have to change the wording to sound like this..........Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for ALL men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for SOME/MANY (but not all) men.
    So in otherwords............because you dont believe that all men ever created will be saved from the wrath of God (universalism) (at least I dont think you believe that) then you are going to have to change the meanings of these words......which is nonsense. And if you force your opinion on the text about how the words "all" and "many" are to be defined (and they remain equal in their use in each sentence) then you have no logical option but universalism.........which is damnable heresy. Either way, you are not handling the text accurately 2 Tim. 2:15
    One last thought as this certainly goes back to the "2 seeds".........1 John 3:10, By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil:............

    There are only 2 kinds of children in the world! The devil is not God and has not the power to create anything. All human souls are created by God and they either, by His wise design, fit one or the other catergory. There are no other options.

    Those same people (that hold the reformed view) (the majority of them)are also the same people that cant handle the text in Rom. 9:21-23........what we call double predestination......they find repugnant because they cant handle the fact that God would create humans for destruction. As if He didnt have the right as Wise Creator of all things.
    Those humans who are in the lake of fire (whatever that dark place may be, it is a place of judgement) are in their sin eternally......that is the way God created them...and it could be no other way than what God has spoken. Those that are in Christ, could be nothing other than that........it is either eternal damnation or eternal justification.

    I've got to get to work myself now as this post has gone on............

    (Mark 1:5 KJV) And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

    Did everyone in Judaea and all the surrounding region come out to see John the Baptist and then the same all get baptized? Is the second “all” equal in meaning to the first “all”?

    (Rom 5:18 KJV) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    Is The second "all" equal in meaning to the first "all"? I don't believe it is and I don't think there is problems in defining them as All in Adam as opposed to all in Christ.

    1 Cor 15:22
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    And I see the same here. I do not find a legitimate argument in saying that the all statements have to be equal in meaning.

    I am going through the "Who did Adam represent poll" and I am finding Kyle with very good arguments. One thing I see that keeps coming up is this notion that all's in the same sentence always has to represent the same set. I just don't find that and I cannot support it. All can mean collective as men collective - its members.

    John
    The grace which saves us is eternal to us, as is also our election in Christ. Those who are in Christ have everlasting life by that virtue alone and it is also plain Scriptural teaching that when God loves, He loves with an everlasting love and therefore draws His own to Him. (Jeremiah 31:3). Now there can be no eternal saving grace, no eternal election in Christ, no experience of God's eternal love where a soul is not justified. These aspects belong together as integral parts." …John Gill

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