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Thread: "FAll" from grace?

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    Moderator Rlhuckle's Avatar
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    "FAll" from grace?

    I was just thinking...how can any "fall" from grace?

    If one actually "fell" from grace due to some choice or action (the implication of the statement)then it wouldn't be a "fall" from grace, it would be a willful act that earned or merited disfavor--which would actually disqualify the usage of the word "grace" in the first place!

    How can merited disfavor qualify as a "fall" from unmerited favor? Wouldn't/doesn't that term imply the favor was merited in the first place?

    I think we need to use a new term that accurately states the condition described.

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    Re: "FAll" from grace?

    Galatians 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: "FAll" from grace?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    Galatians 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
    I prefer this translation:

    Gal 5:4 Christ5547 is become of no effect2673 unto you, whosoever3748 of you are justified1344 by1722 the law;3551 ye are fallen1601 from grace.5485

    G1601
    ἐκπίπτω
    ekpiptō
    ek-pip'-to
    From G1537 and G4098; to drop away; specifically be driven out of one’s course; figuratively to lose, become inefficient: - be cast, fail, fall (away, off), take none effect.

    Your point?

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    Re: "FAll" from grace?

    rlhuckle:

    What do you believe is so different about the translation? Don't both speak of people falling from grace? Are you saying that Paul was wrong to speak of people falling from grace?
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: "FAll" from grace?

    Scripture sometimes uses the language of appearance; what appears to be from a human perspective. The 'fall from grace' is something that becomes obvious to regenerate human observers; i.e., the person observed was once believed to be in grace due to his/her profession but falls from that status once the real intentions and beliefs of the heart become manifest.

    From the standpoint of eternal election there can be no fall from grace, OF COURSE, otherwise grace would no longer be sufficient but a revolving door!
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: "FAll" from grace?

    But we shouldn't be afraid to speak of things in the same way that Scripture does and if we were to deliver a sermon on a text like this we should emphasize what the passage emphasizes. Paul was certainly a regenerate believer. The tendency is to weaken the language when it doesn't fit our own priorities.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: "FAll" from grace?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    But we shouldn't be afraid to speak of things in the same way that Scripture does and if we were to deliver a sermon on a text like this we should emphasize what the passage emphasizes. Paul was certainly a regenerate believer. The tendency is to weaken the language when it doesn't fit our own priorities.
    So what is your point? Do you believe a saved regenerate person can fall from Grace? Yes or No? This is the real issue here. And just what does this passage emphasize. You have a tendancy Chuck to speak a lot of words and try to sound so intelligent. However you never come right to the point of what you really believe. Grow up and be a man! Draw a line in the sand and take a stand either way. Don't always try to straddle the fence. Don't be a theological politician.

    "But we shouldn't be afraid to speak of things in the same way Scripture does" Ok Chuck I agree with that statement. I'll speak plainly. Hebrews 12:8 "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons".

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: "FAll" from grace?

    Nicholas:

    If the Scriptures say that someone can fall from grace, I am bound to believe that someone can fall from grace. We don't need to water those statements down. I'm not a theological policitian, nor am I engaging in sophistry. I'm trying to engage in the childlike trust that the Bible calls us to engage in. If the Bible says such and such a thing we don't need to spend the bulk of our time talking about why it doesn't mean what it sounds like it means. The original post had to do with whether or not we could say that somebody fell from grace. Scripture is clear that we can. Those who get squirmy when they read in the Bible that somebody fell from grace are the ones with the problem. In fact this is the way we find the Bible speaking most of the time. The Bible deals with how we are to understand our day to day lives. Of course, God's eternal election stands behind all of it, but we don't need to engage in a lecture on God's eternal election or try to understand how every passage relates to God's eternal election. If we are going to do that, we need to at least start with the assumption that the Scriptures are correct in what they say.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: "FAll" from grace?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    Nicholas:

    If the Scriptures say that someone can fall from grace, I am bound to believe that someone can fall from grace. We don't need to water those statements down. I'm not a theological policitian, nor am I engaging in sophistry. I'm trying to engage in the childlike trust that the Bible calls us to engage in. If the Bible says such and such a thing we don't need to spend the bulk of our time talking about why it doesn't mean what it sounds like it means. The original post had to do with whether or not we could say that somebody fell from grace. Scripture is clear that we can. Those who get squirmy when they read in the Bible that somebody fell from grace are the ones with the problem. In fact this is the way we find the Bible speaking most of the time. The Bible deals with how we are to understand our day to day lives. Of course, God's eternal election stands behind all of it, but we don't need to engage in a lecture on God's eternal election or try to understand how every passage relates to God's eternal election. If we are going to do that, we need to at least start with the assumption that the Scriptures are correct in what they say.
    How can people fall from the gift of Grace? What does God take it back? Do people not do their part in grace so then they dont have it anymore? you're way of interpreting that verse in the Bible DOES NOT AT ALL line up with the rest of Scripture. People cannot fall from grace. If it appears to us that they did they NEVER had it in the first place, thus they didn't fall from grace. God doesn't take grace back that would be absurd!!!! And I would outraged to think that is what you believe. No one can EVER fall from grace.

    Here's the verses again in context or some of context:
    Gal 5:1-26, (NASB)
    1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.


    I believe in reading this context Paul was talking about how they do NOT have grace.. not that they did have it then fell from it and lost it. They never had it. They come short of it.. because they are looking to the law for justification. They may have heart the truths but they didn't obey them, didn't believe in them, they were short of grace, fallen... Check out the Greek... http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible....Perform+Search. Also it didn't come from him who calls you, so if God hadn't called them yet they DID NOT have grace.. grace is given as a gift to those who believe, and since none of this took place here they didn't have that grace..

    And looking at the context the people here in Galatians had fallen away from the Truth they once learned.. they were believing in a false religion. They now believed that a person needed to be circumcised to be saved. This isn't talking about them falling away from God's grace, salvation... but just from the religion.. that man is justified by grace and not by works.. that's why it says fallen from grace.... from a mindset that justification is by grace and not works.. fell from belief in grace to works. That DOES NOT mean that someone fell from grace (as in salvation). There is no way one could possibly do that.

    Otherwords I think Bob said this well too. I think today though that when people here someone fell from grace, they contribute this to loosing one's salvation WHICH IS NOT TRUE! And is not at all implied by these verses or any verse in the Bible.

    Wildboar do you think this verse is saying one lost their salvation?? fell from grace in that sense? I think this is only talking about one area of doctrine... justification. First the people believe justification by grace then they believed by works. That is the only way they could fall from grace. I dont see grace as being all of salvation or this even saying they ever KNEW God and salvation. Justification by grace is only a part of the Gospel its not the whole message.. so even if someone were to know this, they still could be an unbeliever and not converted. That's how I think some people can have certain truths of the Bible but still be not saved.. like arminians some from my old church believe justification by grace and not works but still when it comes down to it dont believe in the Gospel. So to really understand what these verses are saying you DO have to put them within' context and the Gospel message.

    Make sense?

    Mary
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Moderator Rlhuckle's Avatar
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    Re: "FAll" from grace?

    If one looks at the way the word is used in other passages, one gets the sense that it is a willful change of course or a wilfull casting away. My point was that the term is self-contradictory in a literal sense.

    The verse Chuck posted would be better understood to mean one has fallen (changed course) from the "ways of grace" or the apparent "course of grace" in that one initially mimics the thoughts and behaviors of one that is under God's grace but time eventually evidences the contrary in an individual's life.

    What is Paul warning about in regards to this condition? False doctrine and those who spread it: legalism usually borne (but not always) of literalistic interpretations of Scripture.

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    Re: "FAll" from grace?

    [quote=wildboar;52745]Nicholas:

    If the Scriptures say that someone can fall from grace, I am bound to believe that someone can fall from grace.Ok Chuck, that is clear. So then you mean an elect,regenerate, saved person can lose their salvation? please answer! We don't need to water those statements down. I'm not a theological policitian, nor am I engaging in sophistry.Maybe your not Chuck, however you seem to be siding with the Arminian and Catholic views. They both teach an individual can lose their salvation. Do you believe in perserverance of the saints and eternal security of the believer? I'm trying to engage in the childlike trust that the Bible calls us to engage in. If the Bible says such and such a thing we don't need to spend the bulk of our time talking about why it doesn't mean what it sounds like it means.Well, Christ said to have eternal life you must eat His flesh. Should I become a cannibal? Because that is what it sounds like it means. The original post had to do with whether or not we could say that somebody fell from grace. Scripture is clear that we can.If your understanding is just that what you have stated, in light of the whole of the scriptures, Then I must question the false gospel that you subscibe to. You are no better then Papist and Arminians. Those who get squirmy when they read in the Bible that somebody fell from grace are the ones with the problem.You are sadly mistaken young man. I have NO PROBLEM. In fact I will never ever fall from grace. Why? Because Christ is Able to keep me from falling. And that is what true Faith Alone is my lost friend. In fact this is the way we find the Bible speaking most of the time.Disagree. The Bible gives me assurance ALL OF THE TIME! The Bible deals with how we are to understand our day to day lives.So you are a miserable Existentialist? Of course, God's eternal election stands behind all of it, but we don't need to engage in a lecture on God's eternal election or try to understand how every passage relates to God's eternal election.Why not. I prefer to dwell on what Christ has done FOR ME! and not drown in the see of subjectivism If we are going to do that, we need to at least start with the assumption that the Scriptures are correct in what they say. Charles, I do not assume the scriptures are true. I KNOW THEM TO BE TRUE,BY GRACE ALONE, THROUGH FAITH ALONE! [/quote]

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: "FAll" from grace?

    This constant repitition of 'scipture means what it says' is a wax nose that any interpreter from any position can try and use to his/her advantage. We do not simply take an English translation and conclude a doctrine. We compare every proposition made on the meaning of a verse or passage to the WHOLE of scriptural revelation. That revelation condemns conditional-time salvation to hell, 'nough said.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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