Pristine Grace
Page 1 of 6 1 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 108

Thread: James Exposed

  1. #1
    Moderator Saint Nicholas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    New Castle, PA
    Posts
    711
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Pure Religion

    " And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more of grace: otherwise work is no more work". Romans 11.6

    PART ONE
    Brothers and sisters in Christ,.........It is with sincere desire to present this body of work to the audience of this forum. Again I will attempt to show how the Grace of justification is antithetical to ALL works. There can never be a synthesis of these to ideas. Any addition to Grace or a synthesis of Law and Gospel (Grace), would render Paul’s doctrine of Justification null and void. Many religious churchman however, have taught the synthesis, making faith and works one cohesive unit, along with rendering good works,( the fruit of faith), as a ground, basis, and proof of justification. If good works can be seen (by men) as a bonafide proof of Justification, then we must ask two basic questions. 1. What is the numerical quantity of good works that would prove an individual to be Justified? 2. What degree of substantive quality must these good works possess?

    In this article, I will present evidence, that should be sufficient to indict James the brother of our Lord Jesus Christ, for the crime of Judaizing the Pauline doctrine of Justification by faith alone, without the works of law. James the brother of Jesus, is the antithesis of Paul and never fully comprehended the Pauline doctrine of Justification. I do not believe he was even an apostle as some suggest. A false apostle perhaps, but no true apostle of the Gospel of Christ. However that is another subject worth discussion.

    Whether or not the book of James has been considered a Pseudonymous work, is irrelevant for the sake of this discussion. We will only examine the content of the letter to examine it’s overall teachings.

    In James 1:1 the letter opens with an address to the twelve tribes of the dispersion (diaspora). This opening statement gives us a hint at the audience the letter was intended to reach. I do not agree that the twelve tribes should be interpreted allegorically or metaphorically. There is no warrant for such an interpretation in this letter. This letter is neither parabolic or prophetic, compared to such others as Revelations, the Prophets, the parables of Jesus, etc. The Jewishness of the letter would be understood by the Jerusalem Church (Jewish/Christians), for they too, struggled in the transition from Moses (Law) to Christ (Gospel). The Jewish/Christian animosity towards Paul’s Gentile Christianity, is obvious according to the scriptures as we shall see after we look briefly into a portrait of James.

    A brief portrait of James

    For the sake of brevity, please read the scriptures listed. I will follow with my comments.

    Mark 6:1-4 Jesus makes reference that He is without honor among His own family and kin.

    John 7:1-13 vs.5) Jesus’s brothers did not believe in Him. vs.7) His brothers were not hated. Christ was hated. vs.13) His brothers feared the Jews and were silent.

    Acts 12:17 Notice how Peter after his imprisonment, makes sure to differentiate James from the brethren. This would at least indicate to me that James had some importance over the other brethren. At least to Peter it was important to make this distinction.

    Acts 15:1 The "certain men" Who came down from Judea were of the circumcision party.
    Galatians 2:12 "Certain men from James" were of the circumcision party.

    Act 15:18-21 James statements in these verses are to say the least, incriminating. James response was not at all similar to Peter’s response. James avoided the language of circumcision but still placed four yokes of bondage on the Gentiles. Abstain from pollution’s of idols, from fornication, from things strangled, and from blood. These four commands are still from the LAW of Moses. In verse 21, James supports his statement by appealing to MOSES! No mention of Christ! No mention of the Gospel! Contrast James statements to Peter’s statements in Acts 15:7-11. Peter makes reference to Christ and the Gospel!!

    Acts 21:20-25 When Paul went to Jerusalem, the brethren received Paul gladly. However Paul did not fare well with James. Paul was glorifying God for Gentile conversions. And James and the Elders said to Paul that thousands of Jews were converted also to Christ and "are all zealous of the law".James knew by that time, that Paul was against Moses as a way of Justification. See how the James gang tries to trap Paul in vs.21 then in vs. 22 they challenge him "what is it therefore? In verse 23 They exercise authority. Vs. 24 They ask Paul to recant by telling him to shave his head as a sign of submission to the LAW. Beloved Paul was to crafty for them, and seized every opportunity he could get to preach the Gospel. Paul became "all things to all men"

    Acts 21:26-30 Paul’s seven days of preaching the Gospel was enough for the Jewish Christians. They wanted him KILLED! Where was JAMES? Why did not James stand up in defense of Paul?

    Read all of Acts 22 My question is this. Why was Paul so hated in Jerusalem? And why was James and his followers still allowed to enter into the temple and synagogues unharmed? It was because James the usurper was the head of the Jerusalem Christian church. His false gospel of Justification by WORKS was tolerable to the Pharisees!

    Gal 2: Paul’s statement in vs. 4, makes reference to false brethren who were determined to bring Paul and the Gentile Christians into submission to the LAW. Verses 6-7 can be a reference to James and his followers in this context. Verses 11-14 state that the James gang caused Peter and Barnabas to stumble. Peter must have feared James. Why? Paul defends the Gentile Christians with vs.16 This statement of Paul is in direct opposition to James 2:24. Paul concludes chapter 2 with vs.21.

    This concludes PART ONE. After Part Two is finished, I will be post it.
    This whole examination started with the idea of "Pure Religion" If the moderators of this forum wish to place this article in a new thread, than by all means do so. An Appropriate title could be "The James Gang" or "James Exposed". Whatever the Lord’s will is will surely be done.

    In defense of the True Gospel,
    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

  2. #2
    Moderator Saint Nicholas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    New Castle, PA
    Posts
    711
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Pure Religion

    Part Two
    In this portion, we will examine the Anti-Paulinism of the letter of James. Letís look at the James statements.

    James

    James 2:14 "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and not have works? Can faith save him?
    2:17 " Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    2:20 " But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead.
    2:21 " Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the alter?

    I must make comment here. James is dead wrong on his interpretation of Abraham. In Genesis 15:1-6 God promised Abram seed from his bowels. When Abram believed this promise from God, in vs 6, it was accounted to him for righteousness. Abram was Justified long before Isaac was even born. James twisted the scripture to mean that Abraham was justified when he offered up Isaac. This should be enough evidence that the writer of this letter clearly intended to misrepresent the facts. Also James uses the argument of Abraham to misrepresent Paulís use of Abraham as we will see in part three from Paulís conclusions.

    2:22 " Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    The Genesis account does not support this conclusion. Abramís faith was already perfect before Isaac was born!!. That is why it was accounted to him for righteousness. FAITH ALONE JUSTIFIED ABRAM!!

    2:23 " And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    James uses the same biblical passage, Genesis 15:6 in attempting to prove the opposite point that Paul was trying to convey. James added " and he was called the Friend of God", which was not in the Genesis account.However,to a Jew who could trace his lineage and blood line to Abraham, this statement was of extreme importance. II Chronicles 20:7 " Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever? Isaiah 41:8 " But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend". The writer of James full well knew that physical decedents of Abraham( whom the letter was addressed ) would take this statement personal, and exploit their pride of being of the lineage of Abraham. I believe the writer put it there to further instill animosity towards Paul and the Gentile Christians. Paul the Apostle said in Romans 2:28,29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God". Paul refutes any such notion that a person could be considered a True Jew on account of him being a physical, circumcised, descendant of Abraham. James and his followers hated that statement from Paul. However, James used the term "friend of God" to lend credence to his false doctrine of a Justification by works.

    2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only".

    This statement is in clear opposition to Paulís statements. Further proving that the writer of James would not and could not accept Paulís doctrine of Faith Alone. I might add that Faith is a gift from God. This gift (Faith) looks only in one direction, and has only one object in view. Faith looks to Christís substitutionaryatonement (ALONE ) astheonlyproof, ground, and basis of our Justification.When a sinners look inward, or depend on their own worksas a proof, ground, or basis of their Justification,then they will fare no better than Peter did, when he took his eyes of Christ, and started to sink. Matthew 14:22-31 vs30 "But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord save me."

    2"26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also".

    Again another wrong conclusion.Letís analyze this statement. [ body/faith] [spirit/works]

    Can we really agree that the monergistic, effectual work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration and the gift of the Holy Spirit (faith) is DEAD? Titus 3:5,6 " Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour." These verses shatter James false notions of synergism. Faith alone, in and of itself is always vibrant and alive because faith is the sole gift and efficacious power of God alone. To call faith dead, is a repugnant statement, and an affront to the very life giver Himself, God alone!!

    In part three we will examine Paulís understanding of Abraham, and the one and only true doctrine of Justification.

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    1,304
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    3 Posts

    Re: James Exposed

    Wow very interesting.. in reply to your first post about James I found the verses you referred to said a whole lot about his character. Especially in Acts 21, James was there and so were the elders. James was part of the Jewish culture there, and he promoted the Law of Moses. His focus was more on obeying the law, of Jewish culture than it was on the Gospel and Christ. He was more focused on keeping the law, but why when Jesus Christ fulfilled the law?? Knowing James focus and devotion to the Jewish culture also makes alot of sense to the book he wrote. Still I dont get why the focus on obeying the law when Christ fulfilled it? There was enough teachings on obeying the law and not so much on justification by faith alone. We all know to obey God but its the grace and justification which needed to be taught.

    Also reading in Acts 15 it says this "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." The Jewish culture believed that unless one was circumcised... unless following the Law of Moses one COULD NOT be saved. So Paul went to Jerusalem to the church to talk to the apostles and elders. Now note the Jerusalem elders were talked too.. the SAME elders that were with James when Paul talked to them in Acts 21. I wonder if James was there at the time as well??? Oh wait.. reading on he was there. So Paul was confronting James and the elders about the false doctrine that one must follow the Law of Moses must be circumcised to be SAVED. And where in this did any of the elders or James object? They seemed to have believed this as well...

    5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."6 The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

    And do you know James reply to this arguement that his followers the Jews believed that you need to be circumcised to be saved, to keep the law of Moses? James didn't object he just tried to find some common ground and the response was that maybe its okay if they just follow some of the Laws of Moses.. as if that was a start for them...

    I wonder did James ever say that it was okay for Gentiles not to be circumcised?

    I find all this information interesting.. that James was part of the Jewish religion, and with the elders.. that it seemed him and Paul were in opposition to each other. One was focused on observing the law of Moses while the other on Grace and faith in Christ. Thanks so much Nicholas for sharing all of this. It definitely gets me thinking....

    Mary
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Nampa, Idaho
    Posts
    740
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: James Exposed

    As I read through this and continue to meditate on scripture, I am reminded of Jesus' words to His disciples in Mat. 10:34-39.
    Jesus knew this to be true in His own life at that time as well.......some of His enemies were those of "His own household".
    We have so little written of 1st century history (same as most centuries, alot of information, but how much truth?)
    Anyway, there is nothing in all that I can read that would give me any confidence that James the brother (physical) of Jesus ever came to understand the Gospel in its entirety/the fullness of the truth. I can find nothing written that proves he ever repented of the things that Nick is bringing out here.....let James' own words that we do have recorded serve to stand as his testimony.

  5. #5
    Moderator Saint Nicholas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    New Castle, PA
    Posts
    711
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: James Exposed

    " For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    Romans 1:16,17
    Part Three

    The Apostle Paul
    on
    Justification by Faith Alone

    Unmistakably there is a sharp contrast between Paul and James. Including the book of James and other mentions of James the Lordís brother in scripture, James offers NO support or advancement of the Gospel. One would be hard pressed to find even a morsel. Now with Paul, that is a whole different story as we shall see.

    Romans 2:11-16 vs13 "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified"

    I want to start with the above verse for one primary reason. Many who support James, use this verse to argue that James and Paul are similar in their understanding when discussing the relationship between Faith and Works as a means and or proof of Justification. On the surface of this statement, one may conclude that Paul and James are in agreement. However if this statement were to agree with James, Paul would be contradicting himself in the following chapters of Romans, and in the book of Galatians. If we exegete this passage in itís context, we will see no contradictions. Chapter 2, opens with a stern rebuke against those (primarily Jews-"O man") who judge one another, and they themselves do the same things. Paul proceeds in this chapter to show that Jew and Gentile are alike.

    Vs 11 "For there is no respect of persons with God." vs12 "For as many as have sinned without law (Gentiles) shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law (Jews) shall be judged by the law."

    Both are guilty of sin. Jew and Gentile alike.

    Vs 13 " For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified".

    Now this is a true statement in this context. The point that Paul was making, is that Jews were good hearers of the Law. Every Sabbath the Jews would enter the synagogue and hear the Law as it was read from Moses. The Jews thought that they were superior to all the nations around them. But just hearing the law is not good enough. The Law demands perfect obedience. Not only by obeying the letter of the Law,(outward observances), but also obeying the intent and spirit of the law from the heart (pure and sinless motives and desires). This type of obedience would then render a man Justified. Only one man in history is and was able to perform this type of obedience. That is the God/Man Jesus Christ! Matthew 5:27,28 "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." The Jews lost site of the true function of the Law.The Law magnifies the righteousness of God, and tells mankind how depraved and incapable we all are in attempting to satisfy the requirements of the law. The Law necessitates a Redeemer from itís curse.

    Vs 16 "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my Gospel"

    Paulís main thrust of chapter two, is to show that God is the only perfect and infallible judge. This judgement is based on the Gospel Alone! Only God knows the hearts of men. That is why any form of works displayed, can NEVER be a proof of Justification before God and men. We sinners can NEVER see into the heart of others. Performance of good works can NEVER be a measuring stick of ones justification..

    Vs 25 "For circumcision (Jews) verily profiteth if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made un-circumcision"

    Vs 26 " Therefore if the un-circumcision (Gentiles) keep the righteousness of the law, (faith alone in Christís righteousness) shall not his un-circumcision be counted for circumcision?"

    Paulís major enemies were Christian Judaizers. Those of James. Jews

    Vs 27 "And shall not un-circumcision which is by nature ( all men are born un-circumcised ) if it fulfil the law, (faith alone in the Gospel) judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision (Jews) dost transgress the law?"

    Vs 28 " For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: vs 29 " but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God"

    Only the Master Physician, Jesus Christ can perform this kind of heart surgery. All of Godís elect are true Jews. And all of the non-elect, are not true Jews. No amount of works that we can perform will ever satisfy God. And we do not need the praise or approval of men as a proof of our Justification. Unlike James, who needs some sort of proof of Justification. Faith Alone is not enough with James. James says, Iíll show you my faith by my works. What a prideful and arrogant statement. As if his works are perfect before God and men, to Justify himself.

    If we read Romans and Galatians with the understanding that Paul was answering the attacks against him by Judaizers of the Gospel, we will understand the book of James more clearly.

    Romans 3:7-12 Please read

    Paul in these verses was stating that the truth of God (Faith alone in the Gospel) was considered by some to be a lie, in that it totally nullified Law keeping (Moses). The Judaizers made slanderous allegations against Paul, that nullifying Moses was an evil thing. Paul says that he proved both Jews ( who had the Law) and Gentiles ( who did not have the Law) to be under sin.

    There is none righteous. There is none that understands. There is none that seeketh after God. All are gone out of the way. All are unprofitable. None does good.

    Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh (Jew and Gentile) be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    This is the function of the Law. All attempts in adherence to the Law as a means or proof of Justification is futile. The schoolmaster is done away with. It brought us to Christ. It is finished! There are those who say "the law points us to Christ as a way of salvation. Then once saved, Christ points us back to the law as a way of life". That is nonsense! As if the law could add anything to our faith in Christ. Observance to law would then make Christís imputed righteousness deficient.

    Vs 21 "But now the righteousness of God (who is Christ) without the law ( Christ pre-existed the written code) is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets."

    The law and prophets witness, testify, and derive their righteousness from the Eternal One, Christ. Not the other way around. There is no law that makes Christ Righteous, He is Righteous by His very being and essence. And there is no written code that makes the elect righteous either.
    Christ in us, and us in Him, through faith alone, is our only hope, righteousness, and justification. NO WORKS!

    Vs 22 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of (or in ) Jesus Christ unto all (Jew and Gentile) and upon all them that believe: (faith alone) for there is no difference:"

    Vs 23 " For all (Jew and Gentile) have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"

    Vs 24 " Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"

    Vs 25 " Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past through the forbearance of God."

    Vs 26 "To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth ( faith alone) in Jesus".

    There is no hint of a synthesis of faith/works in these versus. To Paul it was strictly Faith Alone, in Christ Alone.

    Vs 27 " Where is the boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith." (Faith alone)

    No boasting with Paul!

    Vs 28 "Therefore we conclude that a man ( Jew and Gentile) is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    No works! No deeds! No proving before men! Faith Alone!

    Vs 30 "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the un-circumcision through faith.

    Faith Alone

    Vs. 31 " Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid; yea we establish the law."

    Paul answers his critics who slandered and misrepresented him. Paul was not voiding the law, but rather stating that faith alone in Christís righteousness is the fulfillment and embodiment of all law keeping. It is as if we the elect who believe in Christ, have satisfied all the requirements of the law. Imputed righteousness declares to us that we are just and righteous in the sight of God. We have fulfilled the law in Christ through faith alone.

    Some that are of the James and Augustinian persuasion, will say that this verse means that with the assist of enabling Grace, we can now establish and perform the works (good works, not dead works) of the law as a way or proof of justification. This is wrong. The written code could not penetrate the sinful human condition and bring eternal life and justification in the old covenant, as all men (regenerate or not) failed to obey itís precepts perfectly.What the law needed was fulfiller, and Christ is the answer and fulfillment of the law. The Gospel ofChrist establishes the law WRITTEN IN THE HEART! AND NOT ON TABLETS OF STONE OR PARCHMENTS.

    Regeneration and faith alone in Christ alone IS THE PERFECT ESTABLISHMENT OF THE LAW.

    I must close this segment now. However I will continue with Part Three. There is so, so much that Paul has written on this subject, compared to nothing James has contributed.

    In defense of the True Gospel,
    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    North America
    Posts
    260
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: James Exposed

    "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone." - [some guy named] Calvin

    Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

    Paul is in fellowship with James.

    Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    James is teaching how our faith in justified in the eyes of men, the idea of pure religion being expressed in actions is also related in Matthew 7 where faith is shown in the actions of the women who washed Christ's feet.

    Again, we find the same idea of faith being expressed in actions, "why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Luke 6

    And again, we find another example, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7

    Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

    Compare Christ's words quoted above with the words found in James below:

    Jam 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

    Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    The Doctrine of Justification: Its Evidence
    A.W. Pink

    Paul and James using Genesis:
    Let’s say that there is a terrible lightening storm one night which does a lot of destruction. Let’s say one bolt of lightening splits in two a huge tree and another catches a barn on fire. The next day a child asks, What causes the destruction? Is it the bright lightening or the loud thunder? The answer is that the destruction is caused by the lightening alone apart from thunder. That is correct. The power of the lightening is what split the tree and caught the barn on fire. The loud thunder didn’t directly harm anything. A second child then asks a totally different question. He asks if all lightening is destructive. The answer to the second question is no. It is only bolt lightening, which is always accompanied by loud thunder, which is destructive. The relatively quiet sheet lightening is harmless. It merely lights up the sky. Sometimes one hears a distant rumbling with sheet lightening, but never the loud crack of thunder. So the destruction is not caused by lightening alone apart from thunder. The sort of lightening which does not cause loud thunder doesn’t strike the earth and never does any damage. The answer to the first question is, The destruction is caused by lightening alone apart from thunder. The answer to the second question is, The destruction is not caused by lightening alone apart from thunder. The two answers appear to contradict each other, but they really don’t. When the two answers are understood in the context of the two questions, both answers are true, and they don’t really contradict each other. The first statement is saying that destruction is caused by the lightening alone. The second statement is saying that the lightening which destroys is never alone; that sort of lightening is always accompanied by loud thunder.
    See Gal. 2:9 Paul and James are in agreement.

    The quote from Calvin at the top adds emphasis, Paul clearly states that salvation is thru faith alone and James states that saving faith is never alone. You would have to argue that dead faith is still a saving faith.

    Oh, I do not recall James teaching anything about circumcision in the epistle in question.

    It appears certain that James is speaking of the manifestation, not of the imputation of righteousness, as if he had said, Those who are justified by faith prove their justification by obedience and good works, not by a bare and imaginary semblance of faith. In one word, he is not discussing the mode of justification, but requiring that the justification of all believers shall be operative. And as Paul contends that men are justified without the aid of works, so James will not allow any to be regarded as Justified who are destitute of good works. . . . Let them twist the words of James as they may, they will never extract out of them more than two propositions: That an empty phantom of faith does not justify, and that the believer, not contented with such an imagination, manifests his justification by good works. Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion

    See also Gal. 2:9

    James and Paul on Justification
    John G. Reisinger

    To summarize the application of the terms of these two writers we find:
    Paul: Faith is complete trust in, and obedience to, Jesus Christ.
    Works are outward acts of ritual and adherence to a code to attain merit.
    James: Faith is belief in Jesus Christ, the resurrection, and salvation.
    Works are spontaneous acts of love that spring from the fruits of the Spirit.
    "He [James] has no idea of disparaging faith, which he everywhere assumes as present and which he highly values. His point is that faith and works are inseparable in any properly constituted Christian life, and he argues this clearly and effectively."
    Reconciling Paul and James
    William Pemble (1591-1623)

    Honest question, what do we do with Acts? Is it out?

    Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him

    Now that is quite a contrast to what Paul wrote:

    Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    What about what Peter preached in Acts?

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    PAUL preached Christ died for our sins

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    In Gal. 2 we see Peter being lumped in with James, are they working together to subvert the Gospel?

    Sorry folks I can't agree, I'll leave James where it is.

    Peace.

    j
    PS: Pls read the links provided above.

  7. #7
    Administrator Greg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,136
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    18
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    15
    Thanked in
    8 Posts

    Re: James Exposed

    JM, I would suggest you read this thread in it's entirety:
    http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?t=3265

    Greg
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Nampa, Idaho
    Posts
    740
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: James Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by ~JM~ View Post
    "
    In Gal. 2 we see Peter being lumped in with James, are they working together to subvert the Gospel?

    Sorry folks I can't agree, I'll leave James where it is.

    Peace.

    Do you see Peter getting lumped in with James, in the context of Gal. 2 as a "positive thing"? Paul rebukes him severely for his hypocrisy and is not "happy" that even Barnabas was carried away in such filth......something completely out of step with the purity of the whole gospel. With these issues being so great a cause of strife in these years of the advance of the gospel.......where do we find anything written by James that shows he also repented of such hypocrisy? Where did he make any effort at all to make it plain to all the new gentile assemblies that he made a mistake?

    Look at Acts 18:24-28, Apollos was able by God's grace to recieve correction too when it was needful that it come, he was a jew who knew the law and prophets.
    The only things from 1st century history that I have found that have been written about James (fleshly brother of Jesus) is how beloved he was by all his fellow-countrymen..........James (son of Zebedee) was not, Peter was not, Paul most assuredly was not....other tradition shows that none of the other apostles were either.
    James, it appears could never let go of the OC. He is the perfect example of a judiazer and that is why we have "some" of his writings preserved till now with us. The book that bears his name is also called "the proverbs of the NT" for a reason....it bears the flavor of OC thought and lacks any real cohesion of thought......that very well may be because there are 2 or 3 people's thoughts expressed in this "book".

    You could also throw in a hundred other names of those considered "top theologians" by many (like Calvin).....what good is that in the presence of Jesus?
    Luke 16:15 bears some real relevance here I think

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    North America
    Posts
    260
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: James Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlyfavored View Post
    JM, I would suggest you read this thread in it's entirety:
    http://www.predestinarian.net/showthread.php?t=3265

    Greg
    I have, thanks.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    -
    Posts
    148
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: James Exposed

    This James issue has been beaten to death, over and over and over and over. My question would be, what is one suppose to do with his own conscience? I believe James is canonical because it is in the canon. There are many great writings out there that glorify Christ, God, the Gospel etc. Many of them are on this site, and people do not even realize that fact. I have purchased the Dead Sea Scroll book, and find myself in awe, of the writings. The fact is, they are not in the canon, and James is in the canon. Are you free to reject the book of James? I would say yes, but it is according to your own conscience. What about the conscience of the brothers and sisters who affirm James to be canonical, for the simple fact, that it is in the canon. These people have to hear, read, that the book of James is meant to decieve, does not belong in the canon, when it is in the canon no matter what they teach. This is the point, you are free to reject the book of James, whether sinful or not. Others are free to embrace it, whether sinful or not. What are we to do with the conscience, if the words of the opposing teams destroys the individuals conscience, who does care what you believe about the book of James, but has the freedom to disagree, without being destroyed by words?

  11. #11
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,829
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    144
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    92
    Thanked in
    60 Posts

    Re: James Exposed

    Nicholas, it has posted numerous times on here, I don't think anyone here resents anyone for embracing the book of James as "canonical." Yes it is in the canon, but reprobates put together the "canon." The "canon" as everyone calls it is an invention of men.

    Usually, it's the supporters of the "canon" that resent the dissenters. They can't stand that we think the book of James is trash.

    I don't think there was any conflict here, and I agree, there is a lot of inspired writing out there that is not in the canon that in my opinion is authoritative. You'll even find some of it right on this website.

    I personally cannot find anything of redeeming value from the book of James OR from the account of his life found in the Gospels and the book of Acts other than the fact that it simply reminds us that we will never be free of the legalizers until Jesus returns. We are experiencing the tribulation that began with "certain" followers of James.

    Here is an interesting parallel... I am not on board with it entirely yet though....
    Isaac > Jacob > Joseph > Jesus
    Ishmael > Esau > Joseph's Brothers > James

    Brandan
    This is my signature.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    -
    Posts
    148
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: James Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill View Post
    Nicholas, it has posted numerous times on here, I don't think anyone here resents anyone for embracing the book of James as "canonical." Yes it is in the canon, but reprobates put together the "canon." The "canon" as everyone calls it is an invention of men.

    Usually, it's the supporters of the "canon" that resent the dissenters. They can't stand that we think the book of James is trash.

    I don't think there was any conflict here, and I agree, there is a lot of inspired writing out there that is not in the canon that in my opinion is authoritative. You'll even find some of it right on this website.

    I personally cannot find anything of redeeming value from the book of James OR from the account of his life found in the Gospels and the book of Acts other than the fact that it simply reminds us that we will never be free of the legalizers until Jesus returns. We are experiencing the tribulation that began with "certain" followers of James.

    Here is an interesting parallel... I am not on board with it entirely yet though....
    Isaac > Jacob > Joseph > Jesus
    Ishmael > Esau > Joseph's Brothers > James

    Brandan
    This James issue has been beaten to death, over and over and over and over. My question would be, what is one suppose to do with his own conscience? I believe James is canonical because it is in the canon. There are many great writings out there that glorify Christ, God, the Gospel etc. Many of them are on this site, and people do not even realize that fact. I have purchased the Dead Sea Scroll book, and find myself in awe, of the writings. The fact is, they are not in the canon, and James is in the canon. Are you free to reject the book of James? I would say yes, but it is according to your own conscience. What about the conscience of the brothers and sisters who affirm James to be canonical, for the simple fact, that it is in the canon. These people have to hear, read, that the book of James is meant to decieve, does not belong in the canon, when it is in the canon no matter what they teach. This is the point, you are free to reject the book of James, whether sinful or not. Others are free to embrace it, whether sinful or not. What are we to do with the conscience, if the words of the opposing teams destroys the individuals conscience, who does care what you believe about the book of James, but has the freedom to disagree, without being destroyed by words?

  13. #13
    Administrator Greg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,136
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    18
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    15
    Thanked in
    8 Posts

    Re: James Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Heath View Post
    This James issue has been beaten to death, over and over and over and over. My question would be, what is one suppose to do with his own conscience? I believe James is canonical because it is in the canon.
    We have done the canon thing already. Who is it, Nick, that determines the canon? If you answer honestly, you have to come to the conclusion that YOU determine what the canon is. Each individual makes that determination for themselves, whether or not they realize it. A group of dead guys decided that the canon should appear with the 66 books we now have. Whether you question it or not, you have still decided what the canon is - you have decided to agree or disagree with what those men determined. If you believe that James should be part of the canon, then believe that. I don't have an issue with you over that.
    There are many great writings out there that glorify Christ, God, the Gospel etc. Many of them are on this site, and people do not even realize that fact. I have purchased the Dead Sea Scroll book, and find myself in awe, of the writings. The fact is, they are not in the canon, and James is in the canon.
    Again, Nick, where does this idea of canon come from? Where did you get it from? Who decided what is canon? There are all kinds of questions that you should probably be asking yourself about what the canon is. I don't agree that James should be part of it, you do, I don't have an issue with that. I do have an issue with you trying to tell me what the canon should be for me or anyone else and how I should act in regard to my communication with others about the canon.
    Are you free to reject the book of James? I would say yes, but it is according to your own conscience. What about the conscience of the brothers and sisters who affirm James to be canonical, for the simple fact, that it is in the canon.
    Like we've already stated they can believe what they want.
    These people have to hear, read, that the book of James is meant to decieve, does not belong in the canon, when it is in the canon no matter what they teach. This is the point, you are free to reject the book of James, whether sinful or not. Others are free to embrace it, whether sinful or not. What are we to do with the conscience, if the words of the opposing teams destroys the individuals conscience, who does care what you believe about the book of James, but has the freedom to disagree, without being destroyed by words?
    What would you have us do Nick, please men? This is all stupid logic in my opinion. It is not our intent to be a stumbling block to any of the elect. No one is forced to be here or to read what we have to say.

    I believe that legalism from the false church is one of the main gospel issues of our age. It obviously was in Paul's day as we can see through some of St. Nicholas's recent posts. We will not quit defending the Gospel. I believe that in our present age, as the elect come to understand the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, they will see the book of James for what it is.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    -
    Posts
    148
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: James Exposed

    I would like to know, what part of my post that was deleted, was incoherent and off topic. For learning purposes. Thank you. Also, if possible, could you please send me a copy of it, through pm. If possible I would like this information within 24 hrs. If not, I will stick with my assumptions and go from there to resolve the issue.

  15. #15
    Moderator Saint Nicholas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    New Castle, PA
    Posts
    711
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: James Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Heath View Post
    This James issue has been beaten to death, over and over and over and over. My question would be, what is one suppose to do with his own conscience? Keept it! It is your conscience. And you must do what you think is right. I will respect you for that. I believe James is canonical because it is in the canon. OK. You are entitled to think that way. And I am entitled to disagree. Can we at least agree to disagree? There are many great writings out there that glorify Christ, God, the Gospel etc. Many of them are on this site, and people do not even realize that fact. (I do) I have purchased the Dead Sea Scroll book, and find myself in awe, of the writings. The fact is, they are not in the canon, and James is in the canon. Are you free to reject the book of James? I would say yes, but it is according to your own conscience. Yes Nick I agree. What about the conscience of the brothers and sisters who affirm James to be canonical, for the simple fact, that it is in the canon. I have no power to change the way you think. And Roman Catholics believe that the aprocraphal books are to be canonical because, for the simple fact, that it is in their canon. These Catholics have to hear, read, that their apocraphal books are meant to decieve, does not belong in the canon. These people have to hear, read, that the book of James is meant to decieve, does not belong in the canon, when it is in the canon no matter what they teach. This is the point, you are free to reject the book of James, whether sinful or not. Others are free to embrace it, whether sinful or not. What are we to do with the conscience, Keep it Nick. Do not ever surrender your conscience to any man. Just continue surrendering it to Christ. That is all I ask. if the words of the opposing teams destroys the individuals conscience, who does care what you believe about the book of James, but has the freedom to disagree, without being destroyed by words?
    In Christ,
    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    295
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: James Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill View Post
    Nicholas, it has posted numerous times on here, I don't think anyone here resents anyone for embracing the book of James as "canonical." Yes it is in the canon, but reprobates put together the "canon." The "canon" as everyone calls it is an invention of men.
    James was included in the canon by the Papist Council of Trent. However, the Early Church held the book to be questionable at best. Frances Pieper writes in his Christian Dogmatics:

    But as to the canonicity of the Epistle to the Hebrews, the Second Epistle of Peter, the Second and Third Epistles of John, the Epistle of James, the Epistle of Jude, and the Apocalypse, doubts, more or less strongly expressed, were entertained (antilegomena). Eusebius in his Church History lists the homologoumena and the antilegomena. The historical fact that the Early Church differentiated between the homologoumena and the antilegomena cannot be changed by a resolution of the later Church. Luther, too, abides by this judgment of the primitive Church; he says, appealing to Eusebius (Church History III, 25), that in ancient times the Epistle to the Hebrews, the Epistles of James and Jude, and the Apocalypse ďhad a different reputation.Ē

    1. Should our opinion of James be informed by the Early Church or by the Papist Church?
    2. Does the Network question the inspiration of any other book of the antilegomena?

  17. #17
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,671
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    73
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    116
    Thanked in
    62 Posts

    Re: James Exposed

    For those defending the canonicity of James (I have asked this many times):

    Please engage in actual exegesis of verses 21 through 26 of chapter 2; just like you would any other passage considered biblical. There is only value in debating the issue on which lies at the heart of our difference. Using other verses than these to justify a 'works demonstrate faith' doctrine will never get to the real issue--which is exegesis of the disputed passage and the fact that many of us do not believe it can be white-washed.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    1,304
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    3 Posts

    Re: James Exposed

    Hello! So I was reading through The Believers Rule of Life this morning, I really like that book it gets my mind thinking on many things. And I came across those verses in James and something new came to my mind. Now this may have been talked about before but for me its a little new and maybe one of those lightbulb moments. So the verses I've always wondered over are these in James:
    James 1:23-25 and James 2:17,18
    23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

    17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.18
    But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."



    So my thoughts on this whole dead faith thing is its not really faith!! I believe that if someone has Faith, the real genuine faith from God they will produce good works. There's no if's to it.. there is no such thing as having true faith without works. For God is one who does the work in us, for His good pleasure. If a person was given the Spirit, given Christ, given Faith by God there is NO WAY that they would NEVER walk in works, or have a faith without deeds. So what James is saying doesn't make sense UNLESS he means faith in a false Christ or something other than the REAL TRUE faith. And then it may make a little sense to me... but unfortunely its not really clarified too well in this book.

    haha yeah now that I say this I think this was talked about before with the dead faith thread... but its just interesting to see it more in the light.

    Also other verses I'm still not sure on in James is this:
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
    How is faith perfected by Abrahams works? How is our faith perfected by the works God does in us? That doesn't make sense to me.. because our faith is perfected because of Christ in us right? It's not like we need to do something for faith to be complete. Yes it will happen as Christ works in us.. I believe faith always produces good works.. but we have Christ THAT IS ALL that makes our faith perfect and complete. Just having Christ in us makes us perfect and our faith complete even if we were to do no works. Right?? Like if on our last breath like the robber on the cross, and Christs righteousness was imputed to our accounts, that robber was Gods child, but he had no time to do any work.... it was just Faith, that Faith without any works right before he died was enough to justify Him. Agreed?

    Mary

    ps: if this is discussing James too much again please disregard I know its been discussed before and is a touchy subject.
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

  19. #19
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,671
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    73
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    116
    Thanked in
    62 Posts

    Re: James Exposed

    Answers to Gerhard:

    1. Should our opinion of James be informed by the Early Church or by the Papist Church?

    Using the Christo-centric hermeneutic of Luther that is endorsed by most or all of the facilitators here, our opinion of any writing that is esteemed to be biblical must be informed by the gospel contained in the Bible itself. Most specifically as it has come to its full-corn fruition in Christ's revelation of Himself to Paul. This is not to say that the gospel started with Paul, of course, but only to say that it reached its full fruition in the message given to Him.

    The opinion of the Papist Church at the Diet of Regensburg, unfortunately, is exactly what informed those protestants who gave us our current canon. And, as you have implied, it is all proposed to be homologoumena (high-canon and universally accepted as scripture in its entirety); none of it antilegomena (low-canon; esteemed to be partly or mostly scripture by many and fully scripture by some). I added those annotations for those who may not be familiar with the terms of Eusebius.

    As far as the opinion of church writers of the second thru fifth centuries is concerned; there is certainly value in studying the history of the varied interpretations on what was scripture and how those views developed and matured. We have tried to do this in our previous canon threads. Since Athanasius was the first person to try and legislate the 27-book NT canon (367), comparing that attempt and its success at Carthage in 397 (which was not an 'ecumenical' council) proves that all of the documented history before Athanasius demonstrates there was no universal consensus on the content of the canon; the statement by Eusebius on homologoumena and antilegomena that you referred to was written earlier that same (4th) century. And the homologoumena canon list of Athanasius cannot be found prior to his time; though there are many and varied lists that contain most of our current Bible.

    The final authority on what is homologoumena is the conscience of each believer informed by harmony with the evangel contained in that very homologoumena. This does not mean that the evangel is contained or proclaimed in every verse of scripture; it does mean that every verse is related to and supports it in some manner.

    2. Does the Network question the inspiration of any other book of the antilegomena?

    There are various views amongst us on this; none of which bother me personally--since I firmly believe in liberty of the regenerate conscience as informed by the gospel and that every true believer will move in the direction of increased rejoicing in the truth as it becomes clear.

    Some contributors here, of course, do accept the full 66-book canon as homologoumena; the rejection of James per se is not a test of calling someone 'brother' here.

    On the matter of antilegomena or the lesser canon, some here would not include James in that either--others would to some degree.

    Most of us here would include both Hebrews and Revelation in the high-canon, even if they were not viewed by some in church history (even Luther) as part of the homologoumena. This is based on the Christo-centric hermeneutic--as we would believe those books to be in harmony with the evangel taught in the rest of the apostolic scriptures.

    For me, the remaining 4 NT books that were originally antilegomena remain an open issue for study. I have the most trouble with 3 John, as it has no attestation of existence until the 3rd century (like James and 2 Peter) and gives no definite gospel testimony. Plus we do not know anything about who the characters mentioned in that book actually were historically.

    This is a hard issue and a hard stance--since we have to take the fire from both the conservatives and the liberals! To a liberal there really is no homologoumena if that concept implies infallibility of the original text of scripture. But as far as the true homologoumena is concerned, all of us here are as impressed with the need to be faithful to its content and meaning as much as any conservative is.

    I hope this helps to answer your question!

    Grace alone and always,

    Bro. Bob
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  20. #20
    Administrator Greg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,136
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    18
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    15
    Thanked in
    8 Posts

    Re: James Exposed

    Nick, it seems to me that most of our miscommunication started with my post when you got to this line:
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlyfavored View Post
    What would you have us do Nick, please men? This is all stupid logic in my opinion.
    Your understanding was that I was calling logic stupid, or calling you stupid. In fact, I was doing neither. My intent was to say that I thought you were using faulty logic in your response to the thread.

    Our difficulty continued when you repeatedly addressed the question of logic and did not appear to contemplate nor address the other points that have been made. As a result, it was my opinion that you were stirring up trouble and being contentious.

    Now, I think that my opinion was wrong and that you were sincerely trying to understand. Perhaps if we both slow down and try to understand each other we can avoid anything like this in the future.

    Greg
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Page 1 of 6 1 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. TBS Bibles
    By ~JM~ in forum General Discussion Archive
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-23-07, 06:50 PM
  2. Another Perspective on "DEAD FAITH FILES"
    By katoikei in forum Predestinarian Doctrine Archive
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-18-06, 05:16 AM
  3. Dating
    By Livinloud316 in forum Old Miscellaneous Archive
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 07-10-02, 02:03 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •