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Thread: Reality Check

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    Moderator Saint Nicholas's Avatar
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    Reality Check

    The title of this thread may be curious to some, however I feel it necessary to explore and discuss the basis of understanding reality.

    From the current dialogue and responses from some on this forum, there seems to be quite an objection to the Eternal Justification view, with all itís natural soteriological implications.

    These objections however stem from how one determines reality. There are two basic foundational views. Of course there are off shoots and extremes to each of these two views, however to keep it simple for now, I will only discuss the two basics.

    Basic 1. The Objective View. Objectivism
    Basic 2. The Subjective View. Subjectivism

    The Objective View -A Short Definition

    Objectivism, or metaphysical objectivism, is the view that there is a reality or realm of objects and facts existing wholly independent of the mind. Stronger versions of this claim might hold that there is only one correct description of this reality; they may or may not hold that we have any knowledge of it. If it is true (and I believe it is) that reality is independent of the mind, the reality of objectivism is thus inclusive of objects which one may not know about and are not the intended objects of mental acts.

    The Subjective View- A Short Definition

    Subjectivism is a philosophical tenet that accords primacy to subjective experience as fundamental of all measure and law. In an extreme form, it may hold that the nature and existence of every object depends soley on someone's subjective awareness.

    Within the realm that is called Christianity in our contemporary scene, the majority embraces the subjective view, with Roman Catholicism as it extreme purveyor. Although much of Roman thought is still quite evident in reformed, orthodox, charismatic, and evangelical circles.

    Some natural outcomes of this faulty subjective outlook would be: Existential theology....Infused Righteousness.... and most definitely a denial of Eternal Justification. Of course there are more categories to this, but for the sake of brevity, this must be a short paper for now.
    To give a brief example of how these two views would perceive reality, I have written below, a short story. Please read. I will interpret this story from both viewpoints at the conclusion.

    There were two men. One who was a multi millionaire. And the other broke and pennyless. One day these men decided to get married and have children. And they did. They each had a son born in the same hospital and on the same day. The multi millionaire said to his wife" that the day our son is born, I will deposit 100 million dollars to his name and bank account, and it will always be his money forever. For it is mine to give." Now the other father who was broke and pennyless said to his wife" we have nothing to give our son."

    Little did both those fathers know, but that there was a child kidnapper in the neighborhood. A week later when those two fathers woke up one morning, they found their sons missing from their cribs, and not to be found for a long while.

    Twelve years later, and living in the home of the kidnapper and his wife, whom the boys thought was their real mom and dad, they went out to play with some friends. Like children, while talking with their friends they started to role play. The son of the broke and pennyless man said to one of his friends "Iím a millionaire". And all his friends laughed at him. Now the other boy, the son of the multi-millionaire, spoke out and said "Iím not going to lie like my brother. Iím broke I donít have a dime to my name." Then the two boys as they were on their way home, and approaching the house, seen around ten police cars surrounding their home, and swarms of police and FBI agents all around the house. When the two boys arrived by the driveway, a FBI agent said to them."Are you the two boys that live here?" and they said "yes". Immediately the FBI agent put the boys in the car and drove them away. After DNA testing was completed. The boys were told that their real fathers were waiting for them in the waiting room. Of course the boys were quite astonished and perplexed. Then as each of the boys were given to their rightful fathers, they went home.

    When the multi-millionaire father and son arrived home. He had planned a welcome home party for his son. Upon entering the house, his mother and all the relatives embraced and hugged the boy. Then the father said aloud to all "Welcome home my millionaire son". When the boy heard this statement from his father he said. "Dad, what are you talking about? I just recently told all my friends I was broke and penniless." Then the dad responded by saying, "Son, I have never stopped seeking after you all these years. And I could not wait for this moment to tell this good news" Then the dad went on to say. "You may have thought you were broke and penniless, however there is 100 million dollars to your name. It is my good pleasure to tell you this." From that moment of knowledge the boy was never the same.

    A few years later, the boy met up with his friends, whom he had played with in the past, and said to them," Guess what? I am a multi-millionaire" Then all his friends laughed at him and said, " Are you like your crazy brother who claimed to be a millionaire, and was broke and penniless"
    Then the boy said " No!...When I told you I would not lie like my brother, I was a liar also. I have been a multi-millionaire from my birth. I just did not know that reality at the time."

    The objective view says that it does not matter what the boy believed to be real. The fact still remained the same. He was a millionaire.

    The subjective view says that He was not a millionaire until he believed he was. Therefore man become the initiator of reality. Without perception there is no true objective fact per the subjective view.

    If you take the subjective view to itís logical end, we could easily say that if there were no human beings created to perceive reality. Then God would not exist. Henceforth man becomes the creator of God. A God they create via perception.

    Now there are those subjectivists on this forum, who claim to believe in eternal justification but lie when they make statements like. "How can you claim to be righteous and saved before you actually believe?" Or say "The elect are cursed and hell bound until they believe" They are no better than Papists in my opinion.

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
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    Re: Reality Check

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Nicholas View Post
    Now there are those subjectivists on this forum, who claim to believe in eternal justification but lie when they make statements like. "How can you claim to be righteous and saved before you actually believe?" Or say "The elect are cursed and hell bound until they believe" They are no better than Papists in my opinion.
    Exactly! A denial of justification from eternity is a denial of God and His Gospel.
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    Moderator Forester07's Avatar
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    Re: Reality Check

    Saint Nicholas,

    Thanks for the great post! I think you dug to the heart of the problem. I loved your story, it reminds me of Ephesians 1:3-23 and how God sees us. I don't understand how people can continue to read these verses and not see Justification from eternity. Too me it is clear that people would rather worship a god of their own understanding and creation rather than God revealed through scripture.

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved" - Ephesians 1:3-6

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    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
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    Re: Reality Check

    That was an excellent - a MOST Excellent demonstration Nicholas. Thank you.
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    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
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    Re: Reality Check

    I normally do not use popular culture entertainment to demonstrate truth, but this is such an excellent parallel to the truth of Predestination I cannot let it go without mention.... - Brandan

    In the movie, "The Matrix", the whole world was hooked up to machines and hardly anyone knew about it. The world's people were pawns in a large computer program that was using them for its own evil purposes. This computer program sent images to everyone's brain and the victims of this system interpreted these signals as "reality."





    There were a few people that discovered this truth and were rescued by other people outside of the matrix. There were very few of these people, but they came to know the truth.





    Do you want reality? The truth is we're all part of God's matrix. He is the master programmer that is in complete control of all earthly and heavenly events. All men are born into this matrix and the vast majority die never knowing about this matrix. The extremely small minority (it seems) discover the truth of God's absolute control over this matrix. That's because God shows it to them and gives them the freedom to thrive in it! They know the REALITY - they know the TRUTH!

    The rest of the people in the matrix are at home in the matrix. They don't want to know the truth - the reality of the matrix. There are signs all around us that should be obvious that we are in a large program, but nobody will see the reality of the situation except those to whom it's been given the ability to see. Therefore the rest of the world lives on believing lies such as "free will." They do not see the reality of absolute predestination because the MATRIX (God's WILL) will not CAUSE THEM TO SEE the reality. They mistakenly believe that reality is based upon their subjective viewpoint. The obvious signs - the OBJECTIVE truth is ignored. And this ignorance is to their peril.

    If you know about the MATRIX defined as God's absolute control over all things - His predetermination of all things - then you simply cannot ignore the teaching of justification from eternity. If you don't believe the truth of Justification from eternity, then I must conclude that you are still in the matrix (that is you are unaware of it) and have not been set free.

    - Brandan
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    Administrator Greg's Avatar
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    Re: Reality Check

    Quote Originally Posted by Forester07 View Post
    Saint Nicholas,

    Thanks for the great post! I think you dug to the heart of the problem. I loved your story, it reminds me of Ephesians 1:3-23 and how God sees us.
    (This is objective reality)
    I don't understand how people can continue to read these verses and not see Justification from eternity.
    This is why, it hasn't either been revealed (elect that are not awake or unplugged yet) or reprobate (never to be revealed and will always stay plugged in).

    Ephesians 1:9-12
    9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
    10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
    11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
    12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
    Too me it is clear that people would rather worship a god of their own understanding and creation rather than God revealed through scripture.
    Nicely put Forester.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Moderator Rlhuckle's Avatar
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    Re: Reality Check

    Bravo Nicholas and Brandon!

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    Re: Reality Check

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill View Post



    This image pretty much sums it up...

    Joh 8:32
    "... And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

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    Moderator Saint Nicholas's Avatar
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    Re: Reality Check

    Very good post Brandan............I know that we have discussed the matrix via phone some time ago. I enjoyed our conversation.

    It is amazing that the author of the Matrix possesses more insight as to the realm of reality, than the visible christian church does.

    It is parallel to Balaam's dumb jack ass speaking to the false prophet [the visable dead church].
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: Reality Check

    The world's people were pawns in a large computer program that was using them for its own evil purposes. This computer program sent images to everyone's brain and the victims of this system interpreted these signals as "reality."

    The kingdom of evil, thinking that it has true "power", is constantly operating on such a basis. God actually gives the kingdom of darkness an illusion of power for a time. When Pilate asserted his 'great' power in Christ's presence, he was reminded that all 'power' is given from above. The power that evil men think they have is all an illusion sent from God to deliberately deceive them. God makes them think they are in control when they are actually all stupid idiotic pawns in GOD'S program!
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Moderator Saint Nicholas's Avatar
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    Re: Reality Check

    It seems my article "Reality Check" has been posted to another Theology Forum. I pray God will use it for His Good Pleasure.

    http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=43080

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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