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Thread: 1 Cor 15:12-57

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    1 Cor 15:12-57

    There is no other passage I see in Scripture that says more about the Resurrection than this one. I'd like it if we could go through it together, because, to be quite honest with you, it is very confusing to me!



    1 Cor 15:12-57, (NAS)
    12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
    14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
    15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
    16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
    17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
    18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
    19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
    20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
    21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
    23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
    24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
    26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
    27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
    28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
    29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?
    30 Why are we also in danger every hour?
    31 I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
    32 If from human motives I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what does it profit me? If the dead are not raised, let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.
    33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."
    34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.
    35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
    36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
    37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
    38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
    39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
    40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body it is raised an imperishable body
    43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
    44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
    45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
    46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
    47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
    48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
    49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
    50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
    51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
    52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
    53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.
    55 "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"
    56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
    57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Also, for those interested, here is what our concordance has listed for the resurrection: http://bible.5solas.org/bible.php?vi...s=&version=nas
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    Hi, Brandan!

    I just now found this new thread. The possibility of a past resurrection and judgment, unless I've misunderstood, does seem to be the main obstacle for partial preterists. I'm going to spend some time with chapter and the concordance references, and then get back to you, probably next week. Meanwhile, I just found an interesting full preterist article about this exact issue:

    http://www.predestinarian.net/newrep...y&threadid=774

    Have a great weekend!
    cm (mtr)
    "In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity." - St. Augustine of Hippo

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    Hey CM,

    Yes, the resurrection bit is the biggest issue for me. Also, please repost that link, the link above is the link to reply to this thread (oopsies!)

    Brandan
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    Will I ever get this technical stuff down? Lol.

    Let me try again: http://www.preteristarchive.com/Pret...liam_p_03.html

    If I'd only taken the time to proofread!

    Later!
    cm
    "In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity." - St. Augustine of Hippo

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    Here's a good one entitled:

    WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DIE?
    "The Dead Will Be Raised Imperishable"
    (1 Corinthians 15:50-58)


    http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper93/07-25-93.htm
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    Premill/post trib

    I see no problem in being a partial preterist & a partial futurist. In fact, this chapter best dispels the myths, in my opinion.
    Verse 23 shows that after Christ's resurrection, the next resurrection is at HIs second coming. Thus, the rapture is at the 2nd coming .(Rev.20:4-5="this is the first resurrection" at the beginning of the 1000 yr reign). This is also noted again in Rev. 11:11-15 with the 2 dead prophets being resurrected, the 7th trump being sounded @ verse 15 along with the beginning of the millennial reign. Kermie quoted verse 52 which states "at the last trump" & "in the twinkling of an eye".
    Believing 1 Cor. 15 does not negate the history of 70 ad. But it does negate a pre trib rapture. One can believe the 70 weeks of Daniel have been fullfilled, even that Dan. 8 has been fullfilled.
    I only see contradiction when one believes Daniel 7 is a past event & yet awaits the 2nd coming of Christ.
    1 Cor. 15 is very clear & I find it worthwhile to begin study of end time prophecy there.
    Verse 31 shows that CHristians mature in their heart & soul, some are still mostly flesh while others are mostly spiritual yet all are still saved. Thus the harvest & the gleaning=mature Christians & new CHristians. It also shows that eventually we can stop sinning.
    Verse 52 again shows that we are given resurrection imperishable bodies/changed at the last trump/2nd coming of CHrist.

    I believe many of us will be protected miraculously like Noah, Lot, etc. during the great tribulation. I get a 7yr period from Rev 11:3 as being 3.5 yrs. The period beforehand was also 3.5 yrs. So I dont need Daniel's 70 th week.
    REv 10:7- "IN the days of the 7th angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God shall be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets."
    1 Thess.4:14 - 5:4= says that the Day of the Lord(1000 yrs) is the same as the second coming & rapture. That it occurs with the trump of God & voice of archangel, describing the first resurrection. He comes "as a thief in the night" except to brethren. It describes human beings being decieved by someone proclaiming "peace & safety". (the beast or mouth of the beast).
    2 Thess. 2 verse 1= no distinction between our gathering together to meet him & His 2nd coming as being 2 different events. One event=the 2nd coming we are gathered together.
    verse 2- was written because they were confused in thinking it was near their time. (They confused the suddenness of Christ's 2nd coming with it's immediacy in time frame.)
    1Cor.15 is also verified by Matthew 24, but not in the sense that the rapture exists in Matthew 24. Matthew 24 refers to the 2nd coming & God's wrath. No where is the rapture. One disappearing & the other left is God's wrath affecting only some folks. (not believers). Believers are affected by Satan's wrath, not God's.

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    Kermie,

    I have not forgotten about this thread. Give me just another day or two! Sorry I got so busy with answering Bill on "Core Doctrine;" I'm going to get to this first and that one second. I'll download the articles you posted links for, & be back later.

    Grace and peace to you,
    cm
    "In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity." - St. Augustine of Hippo

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    Hey Dianne,

    I understand. It's difficult for me to maintain all these time consuming conversations too. Take your time

    Brandan
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    Believe it or not, I managed to get this much done!


    The first two of Piperís articles were excellent, I thought. Very inspiring! In the third article, ďWhat Happens When You Die,Ē Piper presents an issue very early on about which full preterists and those who believe in a yet future resurrection do part ways.

    Piper:
    His [Paulís] first preference was not to die at all but to be alive then Jesus returns and instead of having to experience the separation of soul and body, he would experience the transformation of his mortal body into an immortal one that would live with Christ for ever in the kingdom.
    If it can be demonstrated from Scripture that it is indeed the ďseparation of soul and bodyĒ that causes the tears God promised to wipe away from all eyes, then preterists do have a problem! The second question is whether Paul expected God to change his mortal body. If it can be demonstrated from Scripture that neither one of these is the case, then the full preterist view of past resurrection may stand vindicated.

    First, letís see whether the text of the chapter in question, 1 Corinthians 15, actually demands such an interpretation.

    (All Bible quotes are from NAS version, unless otherwise indicated.)

    verse 21: For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
    What kind of death did Adamís sin bring upon the human race?

    Genesis 2:
    16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, ďFrom any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
    17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.Ē
    We know that Adam did not die an immediate natural death after breaking the law God gave him. He lived to be more than 900 years old. What we do see, however, is a change in Adamís relationship with God, with Eve, and with the world around him. Adam had lived in a state of innocence (naked without shame) before God. He had a special dwelling place in Eden, the garden of God. He had work to do, in which he was evidently fruitful, and his wife was his suitable companion and helper. After Adam sinned, he was aware and ashamed of his lack of covering, and hid from God in fear. God, in his mercy, replaced his leaves (his own attempt to cover himself) with animal skins. This seems to be an expression of Godís establishment of animal sacrifice for a covering against his wrath. Adam and his wife are banished from their home. This would have been clearly understood by the ancient middle eastern mind! This is a picture of death; to be exiled was to be separated from God and family. In one sense, no one can ever be completely cut off from Godís presence, even in the depths of hell. Where can anyone escape God? But is is possible to be cut off from Godís fellowship, and that is most definitely what happened to Adam in the day he ate the forbidden fruit. The covenant relationship had been severed. Adam was dead to God. All his striving would yield thorns and thistles. And in Adam, we all died. In life, and in death, we were hopelessly separated from Godís fellowship.

    Is this not the death from which Jesus came to save us? The death that left everyone, even Moses and Abraham, in Sheol, from where no one could praise him? Where does Scripture state that our tears are caused by separating the natural body from the soul?


    What did Paul say about the change that was to come over those who remained alive?
    50. Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
    51. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
    52. in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
    53. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
    Paul described this change as putting on immortality, the way one puts on a garment. Does this mean a transformation of natural bodies, or a restoration of the full fellowship with God that Adam forfeited by his sin? Since loss of fellowship is the death Christ sacrificed himself to save us from, it must be a restoration of fellowship.

    Revelation 21:3-4
    3. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
    4. and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be {any} death; there will no longer be {any} mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
    Christ, before his crucifixion, told his disciples that they would be persecuted and even put to death, but not a hair of their heads would perish:




    Luke 21:16-19
    16. "But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put {some} of you to death,
    17. and you will be hated by all because of My name.
    18. "Yet not a hair of your head will perish.
    19. "By your endurance you will gain your lives.
    Think about it!
    "In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity." - St. Augustine of Hippo

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    Country mouse, HI! In regards to Your quote of Rev. 21:3-4.
    I see 1 cor.15:51 & 52 as happening BEFORE Rev. 21:3-4.
    Yes God dwells with us & wipes away our tears, after 1 Cor.occurs, after the last trump spoken of in 1 Cor :15:52 & after rev. 10:7 which says," In the days of the last angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God shall be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets".
    Rev. 11:15 the last trump sounds as mentioned in 1 cor:15 and in Rev 10 & elsewhere. So the last trumo sounds at rev 11:15 but look a few verses up at rev 11: 9- "And they of the people and kindreds and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 11- And after three days and an half, the Spirit of God entered into them, and they stood upon their FEET: and great fear fell upon them which saw them.12-And they heard a great voice from heaven saying "come up hither". And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud:and their enemies beheld them." and in the same hour an earthquake, and that was the 2nd woe , and then the 7th trumpet sounds at verse 15: "And the 7th angel sounded: and there were great voices in heaven saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our LOrd, and of HIs Christ, And He shall reign for ever & ever." This resurrection is at the 2nd coming of Christ, the beginning of the millenial kingdom. (It is described elsewhere too).

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    Hi, DebbieK!

    Debbie:
    In regards to Your quote of Rev. 21:3-4.
    I see 1 cor.15:51 & 52 as happening BEFORE Rev. 21:3-4.
    So do I.

    Debbie:
    So the last trumo sounds at rev 11:15 but look a few verses up at rev 11: 9- "And they of the people and kindreds and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 11- And after three days and an half, the Spirit of God entered into them, and they stood upon their FEET: and great fear fell upon them which saw them.12-And they heard a great voice from heaven saying "come up hither". And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud:and their enemies beheld them."
    No problem there; while there are several opinions among preterists about how this was fulfilled, and how symbolic this passage might be, the reason I take it to have been fulfilled already has to do with John's imminence statements at the beginning of the book:
    NAS Revelation 1:1-3
    1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated {it} by His angel to His bond-servant John,
    2. who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, {even} to all that he saw.
    3. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near
    There are also imminence statements at the end of the book of Revelation!
    NAS Revelation 22:6
    6. And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.

    NAS Revelation 22:10
    10. And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

    NAS Revelation 22:12
    12. "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward {is} with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
    Compare Revelation 22:12 to this verse from Matthew:
    NAS Matthew 16:27-28
    27. "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.
    28. "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
    Did Jesus not say that he would return in that generation to render judgment?

    Grace and peace to you,
    cm
    "In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity." - St. Augustine of Hippo

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    He said He would return when we see these things coming to pass.
    Jesus CHrist fullfilled 456 prophecies LITERALLY. Why do preterists assume rev is to be fullfilled spiritually? Where is the evidence that This prophecy is to be fullfilled spiritually? What previous prophecy has been fullfilled spiritually?
    In Jon3:4-10 God changed his own time frame. So why do preterists get hung up on "this generation " or "that generation"? IF some days can be shortened for the elect's sake , they can also be lengthened. God is sovereign.
    The 1st ressurection is in step with the new heaven & new earth, millenial kingdom, & judgement, all literally,because it's prophecy. See 2 Peter3:"BUt the day of the LOrd will come as a thief in the night: in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up".
    We have to take all prophecy as to occur physically, since Jesus Christ physically fullfilled 456 prophecies, so are all other prophecies to be fullfilled physically: Rev.19:10- ..."for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy".

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    Don't get upset, but I have to disagree:

    [quote]Debbie:
    He said He would return when we see these things coming to pass.

    That generation did see those things coming to pass.

    DebbieK:
    Jesus CHrist fullfilled 456 prophecies LITERALLY. Why do preterists assume rev is to be fullfilled spiritually? Where is the evidence that This prophecy is to be fullfilled spiritually? What previous prophecy has been fullfilled spiritually?
    The book of Revelation is written in the apocalyptic style, just as were many of the books of the prophets. It has to be interpreted according to the kind of literature it is, or it will definitely be misinterpreted.

    Check out Isaiah 13 & 14, in which Isaiah foretold the destruction of the neo-Babylonian empire by the Medes and Persians, and
    then the destruction of Assyria. The prophecy against Babylon was fulfilled at the end of the 70-year captivity. The Assyrian empire also fell. These were not "spiritual" fulfillments, but the prophecies were stated in poetic, symbolic terms rather than natural ones.

    Also notice that Daniel was told to seal up the words of his prophecy until the time of the end, because its fulfillment was in the distant future. John was told NOT to seal up the prophecy, because its fulfillment was near.

    Debbie:
    In Jon3:4-10 God changed his own time frame.
    Really? Let's look:
    NAS Jonah 3:4-10
    4. Then Jonah began to go through the city one day's walk; and he cried out and said, "Yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown."
    5. Then the people of Nineveh believed in God; and they called a fast and put on sackcloth from the greatest to the least of them.
    6. When the word reached the king of Nineveh, he arose from his throne, laid aside his robe from him, covered {himself} with sackcloth and sat on the ashes.
    7. He issued a proclamation and it said, "In Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles: Do not let man, beast, herd, or flock taste a thing. Do not let them eat or drink water.
    8. "But both man and beast must be covered with sackcloth; and let men call on God earnestly that each may turn from his wicked way and from the violence which is in his hands.
    9. "Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish."
    10. When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do {it.}
    It wasn't the time frame that God changed: it was the outcome. The message Jonah preached was a message of repentance, and unlike the nation of Israel in Jesus' and the apostles' day, Ninevah did repent! Thus the disaster was averted.

    Debbie:
    So why do preterists get hung up on "this generation " or "that generation"? IF some days can be shortened for the elect's sake , they can also be lengthened. God is sovereign.
    God is surely sovereign; he also surely fulfilled every prophecy he sent. Batting average 1000. The Biblical standard for a prophet is 100% accuracy or death!

    John the Baptist said that the axe was already laid at the root of the trees. Who are we to refute him, if Jesus didn't?

    We also know from many, many passages of Scripture that God is faithful and unchanging. According to the Biblical record, he has always done whatever he said he was going to do! That's how we know he is trustworthy and that he alone is God!

    [quote]Debbie:
    The 1st ressurection is in step with the new heaven & new earth, millenial kingdom, & judgement, all literally,because it's prophecy. See 2 Peter3:"BUt the day of the LOrd will come as a thief in the night: in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up".
    We have to take all prophecy as to occur physically, since Jesus Christ physically fullfilled 456 prophecies, so are all other prophecies to be fullfilled physically: Rev.19:10- ..."for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy".


    Take time to read Odyssey's recent post (this week) on one of the other "preterism...but" threads. He explained all this in detail, and answered these very objections.

    Debbie, first of all, I'm not willing to accept the idea that Jesus didn't know what he was talking about, or that God changed his mind because something came up that he didn't foresee, and then didn't tell anybody! That's not at all like the God of Scripture. Second, there's enough evidence from history to satisfy me that all these things did indeed take place.

    It doesn't in any way mean that we've been left out, since we came along later. We came along after Pentecost, but we didn't get left out of that, did we?

    Think about it.

    Grace and peace to you, sister,
    cm
    "In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity." - St. Augustine of Hippo

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    Well now i'm really mad. lol. i can't believe you said"dont get mad". I'm just chewing nails!!!!lol
    We agree that the prophecy was fullfilled in Isaiah physically. We agree that every word of the prophecy doesnt have to be taken literally, but the prophecy must be fullfilled physically.
    Therefore, we only disagree that prophecy must be fullfilled physically. Show me one propehcy that was not fullfilled physically.
    Part of Rev. WAS near, & therefore not sealed up, while all of it has not yet been physically fullfilled.
    In Jonah, God changed His mind, not his timeframe, my mistake. BUt since it is prophecy, It could also happen that due to repentance, other prophecies can be prolonged by our repentance. There was no date or timeframe set for the prophecies I have in mind. 2 THess was written to explain the fact that they did not mean Christ's return was in their generation.
    There is absolutely no evidence to support a new heaven & earth, or mark of the beast or 1000 yr reign, or the oriental soldiers enmass, yada yada yada. They cannot be spiritual because every single prophecy was fullfilled physically.
    Don't get mad.lol

  17. #17
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    Hi, Debbie! You're busy tonight!

    Glad you're willing to take some disagreement!

    Regarding physical fulfillment, why don't we take a look at Isaiah 13&14? Here are some of those verses:

    NAS Isaiah 13:7
    7. Therefore all hands will fall limp, every man's heart will melt.
    Would you say that, in the fall of Babylon, every man's heart physically melted?

    NAS Isaiah 13:13
    13. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, And the earth will be shaken from its place At the fury of the LORD of hosts In the day of His burning anger.
    Was the planet earth shaken from it's orbit? In what way did the heavens tremble?

    Let's also look at some other OT prophecies about other nations:

    NAS Isaiah 19:1
    1. The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
    How would you say this was physically fulfilled? Where is it recorded that God physically went to Egypt riding on a swift cloud, and that Egypt's idols quaked in his presence? Do you get a mental picture of this?

    Here is what Isaiah said would happen as a result of Ephraim's captivity:
    [quote]NAS Isaiah 28:5
    5. In that day the LORD of hosts will become a beautiful crown And a glorious diadem to the remnant of His people;
    How could this have had anything other than a spiritual fulfillment?
    Beloved sister, did this prophecy have a physical fulfillment or a spiritual one?
    NAS Isaiah 28:16
    16. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone {for} the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes {in it} will not be disturbed.
    Did Jesus come as a man or a branch?
    NAS Jeremiah 23:5
    5. "Behold, {the} days are coming," declares the LORD, "When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch; And He will reign as king and act wisely And do justice and righteousness in the land.
    Jeremiah had this to say about God's judment upon Babylon:
    NAS Jeremiah 51:42
    42. "The sea has come up over Babylon; She has been engulfed with its tumultuous waves.
    But what actually, physically happened? It was the armies of the Medes and Persians that engulfed Babylon, that "flooded" over her.

    God said through Jeremiah that this would be the result of the words of Israel's false prophets. This, too, is about the Babylonian captivity:
    NAS Jeremiah 5:14
    14. Therefore, thus says the LORD, the God of hosts, "Because you have spoken this word, Behold, I am making My words in your mouth fire And this people wood, and it will consume them.
    Would you say we should interpret this physically or literally? Or was symbolism involved?


    Moving on to the book of Revelation:
    NAS Revelation 1:20
    20. "As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
    Looks like symbolism to me!

    AS Revelation 5:5-6
    5. and one of the elders *said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."
    6. And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
    Well, was he physically a lion or a slaughtered lamb?

    I know this is getting a little ridiculous, and I'm not trying to poke fun at you. I think you should reconsider your stance about all fulfillments being physical.

    Let's look at one more thing:
    NAS Revelation 17:1
    1. Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,

    NAS Revelation 17:3
    3. And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.

    NAS Revelation 17:9
    9. "Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,
    Lol, I've read a comment somewhere that goes like this: "That must be one really big woman!"

    Think about it, ok?

    Grace and peace,
    cm
    "In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity." - St. Augustine of Hippo

  18. #18
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    Here's an article about the resurrection that is worth considering:

    http://www.preteristarchive.com/Crit...alt_da_03.html

    Grace and peace to all,
    cm
    "In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity." - St. Augustine of Hippo

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    "In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity." - St. Augustine of Hippo

  20. #20
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    cm,

    Thanks for the links!

    Grace to you my sister,

    jak

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