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Thread: 1 Timothy 4:10 What does it mean?

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    Re: 1 Timothy 4:10 What does it mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    Joe:

    In passages I have already quoted the Bible speaks of baptism for the remission of sins and the Lord's Supper for the remission of sins. The Gospel is also tied to the forgiveness of sins and absolution is one way in which the Gospel is proclaimed. Since Reformed folk tie forgiveness of sins to the preaching of the Gospel does this mean that they are just papists on weight watchers as well?



    I'm not very interested in what I think people may be saying. I want to know what they actually are. Why is this such a bad thing?
    Reformed folk tie forgiveness of sins to the proclamation of the promise of God chuck, you know this first hand. Not absolution by a mediator other than Christ Himself. The idea of a sacerdotal system is a malicious afront Chuck, with absolutely no foundaton other than sand.

    I like the way the SHC puts it.

    SACERDOTAL CONFESSION AND ABSOLUTION. But we believe that this sincere confession which is made to God alone, either privately between God and the sinner, or publicly in the Church where the general confession of sins is said, is sufficient, and that in order to obtain forgiveness of sins it is not necessary for anyone to confess his sins to a priest, mumuring them in his ears, that in turn he might receive absolution from the priest with his laying on of hands, because there is neither a commandment nor an example of this in Holy Scriptures. David testifies and says: "I acknowledged my sin to thee, and did not hide my iniquity; I said, `I will confess my transgressions to the Lord'; then thou didst forgive the guilt of my sin" (Ps. 32:5). And the Lord who taught us to pray and at the same time to confess our sins said: "Pray then like this: Our Father, who art in heaven,...forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors" (Matt. 6:12). Therefore it is necessary that we confess our sins to God our Father, and be reconciled with our neighbor if we have offended him. Concerning this kind of confession, the Apostle James says: "Confess your sins to one another" (James 5:16). If, however, anyone is overwhelmed by the burden of his sins and by perplexing temptations, and will seek counsel, instruction and comfort privately, either from a minister of the Church, or from any other brother who is instructed in God's law, we do not disapprove; just as we also fully approve of that general and public confession of sins which is usually said in Church and in meetings for worship, as we noted above, inasmuch as it is agreeable to Scripture.
    OF THE KEYS OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. Concerning the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven which the Lord gave to the apostles, many babble many astonishing things, and out of them forge swords, spears, scepters and crowns, and complete power over the greatest kingdoms, indeed, over souls and bodies. Judging simply according to the Word of the Lord, we say that all properly called ministers possess and exercise the keys or the use of them when they proclaim the Gospel; that is, when they teach, exhort, comfort, rebuke, and keep in discipline the people committed to their trust.
    OPENING AND SHUTTING (THE KINGDOM). For in this way they open the Kingdom of Heaven to the obedient and shut it to the disobedient. The Lord promised these keys to the apostles in Matt., ch. 16, and gave them in John, ch. 20, Mark, ch. 16, and Luke, ch. 24, when he sent out his disciples and commanded them to preach the Gospel in all the world, and to remit sins.
    THE MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION. In the letter to the Corinthians the apostle says that the Lord gave the ministry of reconciliation to his ministers (II Cor. 5:18 ff.). And what this is he then explains, saying that it is the preaching or teaching of reconciliation. And explaining his words still more clearly he adds that Christ's ministers discharge the office of an ambassador in Christ's name, as if God himself through ministers exhorted the people to be reconciled to God, doubtless by faithful obedience. Therefore, they excercise the keys when they persuade [men] to believe and repent. Thus they reconcile men to God.
    MINISTERS REMIT SINS. Thus they remit sins. Thus they open the Kingdom of Heaven, and bring believers into it: very different from those of whom the Lord said in the Gospel, "Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering."
    HOW MINISTERS ABSOLVE. Ministers, therefore, rightly and effectually absolve when they preach the Gospel of Christ and thereby the remission of sins, which is promised to each one who believes, just as each one is baptized, and when they testify that it pertains to each one peculiarly. Neither do we think that this absolution becomes more effectual by being murmured in the ear of someone or by being murmured singly over someone's head. We are nevertheless of the opinion that the remission of sins in the blood of Christ is to be diligently proclaimed, and that each one is to be admonished that the forgiveness of sins pertains to him.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: 1 Timothy 4:10 What does it mean?

    Calvin wrote, "It is a most wicked infamy and unbearable blasphemy, both against Christ and against the sacrifice which he made for us through his death on the cross, for anyone to suppose that by repeating the oblation he obtains pardon for sins, appeases God, and acquires righteousness." 6 Calvin recognized that in Christ's priestly role every believer in Christ is received by the Father as his companion in this great office (Rev. 1:6). "For we who are defiled in ourselves, yet are priests in him, offer ourselves and our all to God, and freely enter the heavenly sanctuary that the sacrifices of prayers and praise that we bring may be acceptable and sweet-smelling before God."


    Also, to make matters worse is to combine sacramentalism and a sacerdotal system Chuck!!!!!

    What irritates me the most is this sacerdotal sacramentalism neglects the Holy Spirits operation to act when and where He pleases, to only being present when the sacraments are given. Chuck, I know you cannot concur with this vein of thought. When the 'church' becomes an institution of salvation, and can release this power of salvation when it distributes the sacraments, it is equal to saying that salvation and God the Holy Spirit, is controleld and dispensed at the churches will, and released at the Church's will to do the work required of it. No heresy could be wprse than that heresy which controls the operations of God the Holy Spirit under the forms of the sacrament and sacerdotal system.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: 1 Timothy 4:10 What does it mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Higby
    And what qualifies one to be a 'minister' of this sort? Who do I need to go to if I WANT TO BE SURE my sins are absolved of God confirmed by someone who most certainly speaks for Him??
    I've already said in previous threads that all Christians should and can absolve one another of their sins. This is what the Pharisees had such a problem with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Highly Favored
    Wow Joe, two posts in two days in which I agree with you 100% is this a sign of the impending apocalypse or what?

    Seriously though, Charles I agree with Joe on what he has said here I think you're playing dumb here also so please spare us the rhetoric about being a sinner or that you're just trying to understand.

    You yourself once embraced a 5 point position so to now act like you don't understand what's being said is a complete lie.
    What does any of this have to do with the 5 points of Calvinism? I understand what the 5 points teach. What I do not understand is when someone such as yourself states that people are unregenerate if they think that a church body can use institution as its slave. You still have not defined what "institution" is and how we are to avoid it entirely. Joe claims that the Lutheran doctrine is muddy without saying why. Joe won't say who the rabbi is that wrote the paper that he made reference to in the other thread. Why can't we just have straight dialogue about it where I answer your questions and you answer mine? Wouldn't that be the best way to encourage everybody to do their best thinking? If I were to go by my assumptions as Joe seems to want me to do I would have to assume that Highly Favored and Joe both hold their opinions dogmatically and apart from Scripture and think that anyone is an idiot who doesn't think the same way that they do. But what good purpose does working under those assumptions serve? And are those assumptions Christian or antiChristian?
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: 1 Timothy 4:10 What does it mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    Why can't we just have straight dialogue about it where I answer your questions and you answer mine?
    Charles I think you've heard from most of the people on this board why they can't dialog with you, you dance around subjects, you feign ignorance, you quote what most here would consider antichrist sources and embrace a sacremental system and you either are too stupid or are simply incapable of seeing it.

    My belief is that you can't see it and my sincere hope and my prayer for you is that God would use the words here to wake you up if you are one of his.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: 1 Timothy 4:10 What does it mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    Joe claims that the Lutheran doctrine is muddy without saying why. Joe won't say who the rabbi is that wrote the paper that he made reference to in the other thread. Why can't we just have straight dialogue about it where I answer your questions and you answer mine? Wouldn't that be the best way to encourage everybody to do their best thinking? If I were to go by my assumptions as Joe seems to want me to do I would have to assume that Highly Favored and Joe both hold their opinions dogmatically and apart from Scripture and think that anyone is an idiot who doesn't think the same way that they do. But what good purpose does working under those assumptions serve? And are those assumptions Christian or antiChristian?

    Chuck, I told you the name of the rabbii. Look back and you will see. And I have also explained the muddy waters in my last couple of posts. Ive known you for years now Chuck and idiot is far from what I classify you, I hope you know that. The problem with this new approach of yours is perception of anyones beliefs becomes anulled. Perception is very important. So when I read of the sacramental and sacerdotal Lutheran system, I am ONLY required to determine from the surface of their own words what I PERCEIVE it means and then argue against it. I need not become a lutheran theologian and then argue. I need not even have to substantiate much of what I am arguing against. Lutherans have priests, I need not go any farther than that. I also mentioned it is not as flagrant as say the rcc or anglican system, but it is also resembles it. And like I asked before, if my characature does resemble it somewhat, then it becomes a truth, and you should at least admit this on certain points. The lynchpin is the sacerdotal and sacramental system. Thats it. That is as far as one needs to travel and find this foundation of sand. You assume I need to fully understand the Lutheran truth and explination of their system Chuck. I do not.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: 1 Timothy 4:10 What does it mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Highly Favored
    Charles I think you've heard from most of the people on this board why they can't dialog with you, you dance around subjects, you feign ignorance, you quote what most here would consider antichrist sources and embrace a sacremental system and you either are too stupid or are simply incapable of seeing it.

    My belief is that you can't see it and my sincere hope and my prayer for you is that God would use the words here to wake you up if you are one of his.
    WOW! Calling me stupid, now that's a convincing argument. Maybe if you call me a poo poo head then I'll change my mind. I'm becoming convinced more and more that you don't know what you mean even in your own head when you make the claims that you do. You have not explained yourself anywhere.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: 1 Timothy 4:10 What does it mean?

    Let's all stick with working through the issues, not a name-calling which can't possibly be fruitful. I'm just trying to bring the discussion back on track.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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