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Thread: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

  1. #61
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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    Quote Originally Posted by mcoving
    Either way the Bible is clear that children of God can never become unchildren. I provided plenty of Scriptures to show that and you have ignored them.
    I have not ignored them, I have provided explanation for them. You apparently do not like my explanation but I have not ignored them. Would you provide explanation for the texts that I posted?
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

  2. #62
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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    I thought my question was simple enough, I can't explain it any better.

    We, of course, deny the free-will interpretation of the scriptures you have cited and defended. So, in your estimation, I guess we just don't believe the Word of God.

    Consider my request dropped.

    The doctrine of Augustine (and of the Roman Catholic Church) makes far more sense than that of those Arminians, Wesleyans, or Lutherans who teach that one can have assurance FOR THE MOMENT by faith but may lose salvation later. For Gus and the RCC, the 'faithful' have an ASSURANCE OF HOPE but never an assurance of final salvation. In other words, one who presently has all known sin confessed and actively pursues personal evangelism for the church, almsgiving, and the sacraments can have the assurance that he/she is ON THE ROAD to salvation and will finally receive it, perhaps after a further cleansing in purgatory, if he/she manages to die free of unconfessed mortal sin.

    The notion that a person can know for sure that he/she has salvation at this moment but may still forfeit it at any future moment is really not an improvement over this, it merely makes a person FEEL BETTER at certain moments in his/her life when there is no sense of present unconfessed sin & lack of devotion to evangelism, the sacraments, and giving to the poor.

    In practical terms, these are examples of some things that kill assurance in the conscence of any person ensnared in a church which teaches the 'lose salvation' doctrine:

    1. An outburst of temper that has not yet been fully dealt with/confessed.

    2. A failure to properly witness for Christ with the right words when an opportunity presented itself.

    3. A sudden conviction of overall slothfulness in one's life embracing many areas of behavior.

    4. An episode of gossip that has not yet been made right.

    5. A past 'white lie' that suddenly is pressed on the conscience and brings a feeling of condemnation.

    6. An episode of indulgence in impure sexual thoughts.

    7. An episode of drinking too much alcohol.

    8. Conflict with a family member or other close associate in which unkind words were spoken.

    I could go on and on. The bottom line is, there is no practical way to make a revolving-door salvation doctrine work in the conscience of the believer. Either you have the peace of final assurance or you don't.

    For the elect believer, God is not the author of confusion but of peace. It is IMPOSSIBLE that the Gospel of Christ teaches one doctrine on this matter and certain verses teach the opposite. If so, the Lord would be making fools out of all of us.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  3. #63
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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Higby
    We, of course, deny the free-will interpretation of the scriptures you have cited and defended.
    I am not teaching a free-will position on these Scriptures. It is God's grace which regenerates a person and God's grace which gives faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Higby
    The notion that a person can know for sure that he/she has salvation at this moment but may still forfeit it at any future moment is really not an improvement over this, it merely makes a person FEEL BETTER at certain moments in his/her life when there is no sense of present unconfessed sin & lack of devotion to evangelism, the sacraments, and giving to the poor.
    Lutheranism does not teach that a person must confess every individual sin that he has committed. If that were the case, all would be damned. Christ came to call sinners and not the righteous to repentance. Damnation is for the righteous (as Jesus refers to them). The examples you provide all refer to people who are pricked in their conscience because of some sin they have committed or are struggling with. These people should all be presented with the Gospel. Apostacy is what the righteous do. Apostacy is what the healthy do. Apostacy is what the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son has done. Apostacy is failure to recognize yourself as a poor miserable sinner in need of the grace of God.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

  4. #64
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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    I am not teaching a free-will position on these Scriptures. It is God's grace which regenerates a person and God's grace which gives faith.



    Lutheranism does not teach that a person must confess every individual sin that he has committed. If that were the case, all would be damned. Christ came to call sinners and not the righteous to repentance. Damnation is for the righteous (as Jesus refers to them). The examples you provide all refer to people who are pricked in their conscience because of some sin they have committed or are struggling with. These people should all be presented with the Gospel. Apostacy is what the righteous do. Apostacy is what the healthy do. Apostacy is what the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son has done. Apostacy is failure to recognize yourself as a poor miserable sinner in need of the grace of God.
    It is good that you believe the points that you have mentioned in this post. All of our doctrine must be firmly rooted in the scriptures. We cannot rely on church tradition or ideas that contradict the scriptural witness. May the Lord enable you to continually see Christ, high and lifted up, by the Holy Spirit, connecting His Word to your heart.

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