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Thread: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Higby
    How can you propose that Christ is on one side of the issue and covenant/election on the other side? This is exactly what the NPP does--contrast biblical categories or terms (such as JUSTIFICATION) with Christ.
    I speaking of centrality. It happens regardless of whether people are conscious of it or not. This site is called predestinarian.net because people here are primarily concerned with a predestinarian reading of Scripture. That's why my blog is called The Lamb on the Altar, because I believe that the Lamb on the Altar is the center of all orthodoxy and orthopraxy. A covenant-centered understanding of the Scriptures tends to lead people into all kinds of strange directions and into all kinds of controversies and divisions. Jesus said that all of the Scriptures are about Him and I believe He was right. Jesus did not say that all the Scriptures are about justification, covenant, or election. Justification, covenant, and election are all realized in Christ but He is the central focus. Covenant, justification, election, or even the Scriptures must never become the objects of our worship.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    This site is called predestinarian.net because people here are primarily concerned with a predestinarian reading of Scripture.
    This shows me how little you understand about the viewpoint of the facilitators on this forum. What I would say is our chief lens to view things through, is God being absolutely sovereign over all things. As a result, we speak about God's decrees, i.e. predestination. When we speak of canon, we believe in determining it from a christocentric hermeneutic. We believe all things are Christ-centered however, we do not share a religious view of scripture the way the "church" does.

    Wildboar, I believe you also share in a religious view of scripture, regardless of your claim to the contrary.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    Lutherans do believe that a person can fall from salvation and that position has been historically held in the church.
    Please be more definite for us Charles. Which Church?

    Also, if an individual can fall from salvation, was that person ever Justified?

    If he was once justified and lost his justification, on what grounds was he justified? Was he justified by the imputed righteousness of Christ credited to him? or was he justified by his ability to perform an amount of good works to maintain his justification?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    Lutherans view baptism as the means of regeneration.
    You are correct. Lutherans and many others view water baptism as a means of regeneration. And as you stated many times before, water baptism is not the only means of regeneration. However the main point of disagreement is this: Can a person who has been regenerated (born again) ever lose his salvation and thus end up in hell?

    You and the LCMS along with others say YES!
    I and others say NO!

    So all this rhetoric about the NPP and FV is moot. This is just another clever attempt of the Devil to re-arrange his arguments against God's elect and a further attempt at destroying the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Why do you think Jesus calls Satan the father of lies?

    Either we have an actual eternal life conditioned on Christ's imputed merits alone, or we have only a promise of eternal life conditioned upon mans ability to cooperate with grace in such a way as to not fall from grace.

    Thousands upon thousands of words and articles have always been written throughout history to erode and destroy the true Gospel. To destroy the Gospel is an attempt to destroy the work of Christ. And that my friend will never happen.

    "Those that the Father has given to me, I have lost none."....Jesus

    Thank you Jesus for not losing me!
    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    That's why my blog is called The Lamb on the Altar, because I believe that the Lamb on the Altar is the center of all orthodoxy and orthopraxy. A covenant-centered understanding of the Scriptures tends to lead people into all kinds of strange directions and into all kinds of controversies and divisions. Jesus said that all of the Scriptures are about Him and I believe He was right. Jesus did not say that all the Scriptures are about justification, covenant, or election. Justification, covenant, and election are all realized in Christ but He is the central focus. Covenant, justification, election, or even the Scriptures must never become the objects of our worship.

    I began to notice when you started using that terminology “The Lamb on the Altar” even here on the forum and how it seemed that by your use of new terminology all of sudden, in your estimation, no one else had Christ as the central focus of their lives, their thoughts or their worship.

    I don’t think terminology reveals ones focus. Christ is always the central focus of those of us here who rejoice in Christ and His Gospel. His Gospel is justification, election, Grace and covenant all revealed to us in the written Word by the Holy Spirit.

    Jesus said He came to save His people from their sins. It is the most natural part of a regenerated mind to desire to know why and how. Knowing the Christ of Scripture is also knowing what He has accomplished and worshipping Him with that knowledge in Spirit and in Truth.

    Eileen~
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    I speaking of centrality. It happens regardless of whether people are conscious of it or not. This site is called predestinarian.net because people here are primarily concerned with a predestinarian reading of Scripture. That's why my blog is called The Lamb on the Altar, because I believe that the Lamb on the Altar is the center of all orthodoxy and orthopraxy.
    Nice try Charles. But your false dichotomy strawman won't work here. Predestination and The Lamb (that was) on the Altar, are not mutually exlusive teachings. They can never be divorced. Christ the Lamb was predestined. The Elect are predestined. The devil and his minions are predestined. The goats are predestined. All of history is predestined by God. Man has no say in his destination. The exact number of those that will be in heaven with Christ is fixed, and likewise the exact number of those that will be in hell is fixed. God has already made His determination. All of man's will (whether free or not free depending on your beliefs) will not altar or change that number.

    And another point I want make here Charles. Is Christ the Lamb still on the altar? Or is he seated at the right hand of the Father in all His glorious victory until His enemies are made His footstool?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    Jesus said that all of the Scriptures are about Him and I believe He was right. Jesus did not say that all the Scriptures are about justification, covenant, or election. Justification, covenant, and election are all realized in Christ but He is the central focus. Covenant, justification, election, or even the Scriptures must never become the objects of our worship.
    Another strawman Chuck. It is true that ALL the scriptures testify to Christ. However all these other elements further define the Glorious person and work of Christ.

    How can we make Christ the central focus of our worship, if we do not know who he is... what His purpose was...and what He achieved for His people?

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    St. Nicholas: "Either we have an actual eternal life conditioned on Christ's imputed merits alone, or we have only a promise of eternal life conditioned upon mans ability to cooperate with grace in such a way as to not fall from grace."



    Thank you St. Nicholas, perfectly put! We are justified by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ ALONE! It is all of Christ and none of us! It is monergistic not synergistic! The "cooperation" teaching is from the WHORE ROME, who learns it from her "father the devil". To quote Richard Sibbes:
    "It is a destructive addition to add anything to Christ".
    Col 2:9, (NASB), For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    Eph. 1:2-14 (NJKV). Election was/is central to the Pauline gospel.

    Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    There appears to be some misunderstanding. I am not denying the teaching of election. I am denying that it is central to the Scriptures in the same way that Christ is. Christ is the central teaching of Scripture. I am not saying that I am the only one who knows this or even that I am consistent in my confession of this. Justification and election and whatever else exist because of Christ. Christ is the center and must be the emphasis. If we make something else the center we are bound to be led astray. When the FV goes astray or the anti-FV goes astray or the prosperity Gospel preacher goes astray or the hyper-Calvinist goes astray or the Arminian goes astray it is all for the same reason. It is because they do not have Christ at the center.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    There appears to be some misunderstanding. I am not denying the teaching of election. I am denying that it is central to the Scriptures in the same way that Christ is.
    I can see what you are getting at, but election is a part of who Christ is. He is the God of election. It has been His purpose from before the foundation of the world to elect a people for Himself. Election is central to the purpose of the gospel. You can't say that Christ is central, and election isn't. When you say that Christ is central, and election isn't, you are saying that Christ can be divorced from His teaching. Christ's teaching is Christ. If you deny the teachings of Christ, you can end up denying Christ, which is deadly. It is common in the church today to talk about "fundamentals", and throw away having a view on the finer points of Christian doctrine. My question is, who are we as the mere creation, to say what is "essential" and "non-essential"? There is no such terminology in the bible. We are supposed to have the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace, and love one another until we reach the unity of the faith. Loving one another is directing God's children to the truth, and away from error, but you can get accused of creating disunity, when you are trying by God's grace to unify folks to the truth. This is true biblical ecumenism.

    Christ is the central teaching of Scripture. I am not saying that I am the only one who knows this or even that I am consistent in my confession of this. Justification and election and whatever else exist because of Christ.
    AMEN!

    Christ is the center and must be the emphasis.
    ABSOLUTELY!

    If we make something else the center we are bound to be led astray.
    I couldn't agree with you more!

    When the FV goes astray or the anti-FV goes astray or the prosperity Gospel preacher goes astray or the hyper-Calvinist goes astray or the Arminian goes astray it is all for the same reason. It is because they do not have Christ at the center.
    So Charles, at least we now know that you believe we have gone astray. So are you saying that we don't have Christ at the centre of our faith?
    Be very careful how you answer this question, Charles.

    It is interesting how you club us together with arminians and prosperity "gospel" preachers. Wow, well I never. You learn something new every day!

    The Lord's blessings to you Charles,

    Kevin.

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    Quote Originally Posted by Abraham854 View Post
    I can see what you are getting at, but election is a part of who Christ is. He is the God of election. It has been His purpose from before the foundation of the world to elect a people for Himself. Election is central to the purpose of the gospel. You can't say that Christ is central, and election isn't. When you say that Christ is central, and election isn't, you are saying that Christ can be divorced from His teaching. Christ's teaching is Christ. If you deny the teachings of Christ, you can end up denying Christ, which is deadly. It is common in the church today to talk about "fundamentals", and throw away having a view on the finer points of Christian doctrine.
    You are correct, Kevin. The Lord Jesus Christ IS election. That is part of His nature. As we see in Exodus 33, He spells this out clearly to Moses:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ex 33:18-19
    18 Then Moses said, "I pray You, show me Your glory!" 19 And He said, "I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the Lord before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion."
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    The teachings of Christ are not Christ Himself. Christ is a real person--not just a theological abstraction. We worship Christ. We do not worship His teachings. The teachings of Christ are priceless. We receive the comfort of the forgiveness of sins from the teachings of Christ. Christ is THE elect one. He is the only one who is elect in and of Himself. He is the only one in which election can be found.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    [quote=wildboar;59815]There appears to be some misunderstanding.
    [/QUOTE}

    Maybe from your perspective, not from mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    I am not denying the teaching of election.
    Neither do we. We just have a different understanding of election than you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    I am denying that it is central to the Scriptures in the same way that Christ is.
    The person and work of Christ are inseperable. They can never be divorced.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    Christ is the central teaching of Scripture.
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    Justification and election and whatever else exist because of Christ.
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    Christ is the center and must be the emphasis.
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    If we make something else the center we are bound to be led astray.
    Agreed. And with that said let us never make the "works of the church and the clergy/minister the neccessary elements in obtaining salvation" the vital center.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    When the FV goes astray or the anti-FV goes astray or the prosperity Gospel preacher goes astray or the hyper-Calvinist goes astray or the Arminian goes astray it is all for the same reason. It is because they do not have Christ at the center.
    Your above statement is not all together correct. Allow me to explain. It is not that those above have gone astray for not having Christ at the center, but rather they do not know the true gospel of Christ. Now as for the hyper-calvinist you above mentioned, that is only a label. There can also be hyper-calvinists who are not saved either Chuck. However, the elect shall never go astray because of the Shepard of the sheep. That is an impossibilty.

    Also it is a funny thing that you excluded the LCMS and the RCC from the above list. A funny thing indeed.

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Nicholas View Post
    Also it is a funny thing that you excluded the LCMS and the RCC from the above list. A funny thing indeed.
    "Funny"? I'll bet you meant predictable.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    My list was not intended to be exhaustive. It was a rather random selection. When Lutherans go astray it is because they have moved their central focus away from Christ and put it into something else--certainly the Ablaze movement has done this as well some other movements. The same is true with the Roman Catholic church.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    For us, a 'focus upon Christ' cannot be separated from a confession of specific propositions about Christ's person and work that God has given us by revelation. In our estimate (those who represent p-net), this excludes any view of universal 'potential' election, universal 'potential' atonement, or a predestination that can be un-predestined by a failure to choose faithfully to eat Jesus at the altar.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    I think the bottom line, is that we are all walking on a particular pathway. We all once believed some pretty bizarre things in our time, when we didn't see Jesus.

    The great thing about salvation is that it is all to Jesus be the glory and the praise. He sees us and loves us in our rottenness, and declares, he or she is righteous. It is an exchange of His righteousness for our sin. We argue so strongly for the doctrines of grace on here, not because we want to be mean, harsh or arrogant, but because we are passionate about the grace and glory of God. Whatever the doctrinal scheme of man, there is no scheme nor doctrinal hogwash that can stop the irresistable grace of God from doing His work. When we rely on God ONLY for every area of our lives, and not "our ability" to fulfill "our responsibility", the Holy Spirit has free course, and has a life that is truly in the arms and control of the Lord.

    I don't want to be hyper-inflated, hyper-active or hyper-anything, but I won't compromise the grace of God by creating a parallel walkway of God's Sovereignty on the one side of the path and "man's responsibility" on the other side of the path, so that "my human responsibility" can "co-operate with grace". Now there is a ridiculous statement, if ever I heard one. What does co-operate with grace mean? If we have to co-operate with grace, this is down to human ability, surely. If we have to co-operate with grace to see changes in our lives, this means that we rely on ourselves instead of Christ.

    Praise God for Grace and Mercy.

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Higby
    In our estimate (those who represent p-net), this excludes any view of universal 'potential' election, universal 'potential' atonement, or a predestination that can be un-predestined by a failure to choose faithfully to eat Jesus at the altar.
    I really don't know of anyone who teaches that your are unpredestinated by failing to partake of the sacrament of the Lord's Supper.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    I really don't know of anyone who teaches that your are unpredestinated by failing to partake of the sacrament of the Lord's Supper.
    And I don't really know anywhere in the NT where the drink or the dip are referred to as a sacrifice or as a sacrament.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    I don't remember anywhere in the Bible that talks about a drink or a dip. I remember Jesus saying take eat this is my body and take drink this is my blood. I remember parts that teach that those who partake without discerning the Lord's body are drinking damnation unto themselves.

    The word sacrament may not be found in the Bible but the idea is. The word Trinity isn't found in the Bible either.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: A Federal Vision 'Primer'

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    I don't remember anywhere in the Bible that talks about a drink or a dip. I remember Jesus saying take eat this is my body and take drink this is my blood. I remember parts that teach that those who partake without discerning the Lord's body are drinking damnation unto themselves.

    The word sacrament may not be found in the Bible but the idea is. The word Trinity isn't found in the Bible either.
    Charles, you are splitting hairs.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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