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Thread: Theological controversies and disputes

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Thanks for all the advice.

    1st off, I am only visiting, 2nd off. I went to show my face. I am not a member, and am not even thinking about it.

    3rd, I have learned a lot on this forum. It has not been wasted and will never be.

    I might not even go back again. I made a mistake writing about this on a public forum. Please can you remove the thread.

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill View Post
    Amos 3:3, (KJV), Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
    My sentiments as well. Since Christ alone is the Rock and foundation of our faith, the only solid ground for Christian unity must be based on the person and work of Christ alone. Where one of these doctrines are seriously tarnished, there can be no fellowship. Why? Because fellowship will not be based on the Gospel of Christ.

    "There is no other foundation that men can lay than Christ"
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawker View Post
    Thanks for all the advice.

    1st off, I am only visiting, 2nd off. I went to show my face. I am not a member, and am not even thinking about it.

    3rd, I have learned a lot on this forum. It has not been wasted and will never be.

    I might not even go back again. I made a mistake writing about this on a public forum. Please can you remove the thread.
    Kevin my brother. You must do what you are compelled to do. Whether I agree or disagree, it is still for you to choose what God has caused and desired for you to do.

    Sometimes we halve to wallow in the dung heap for a while before we can smell it. God has His perfect way of teaching His people individually.

    With all my love in Christ,
    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    This is a good thread Kevin, lets not erase all that has been said
    Lonliness is hard to bear. Finding like-minded brethren where ever we live is not easy. But I can tell you this. Travis (here on our forum) and his room mate Jacob just recently moved in to a house together and got out of the apartments. The 4 of us have found common ground on the gospel and we have decided to meet at least 1x per week, so far it has been on saturday or a sunday. (we are not sabatarians...uh oh)
    We have been examining a book in the light of scripture written by Frank Viola (Just so there is no mis-understanding here, I believe this man has apostisized...I wont go into reasons here) called "re-imagining church". It follows his book called pagan christianity (has a better bibliography in this book) which serves well to tear down many of the structures of whorish religion over the centuries, most are things that we on this forum would have no problem with. I've seen some of the reviews on that book and the reformed world hates it just as much at the RC. I was shocked

    Anyway, we are discussing this book and in an attempt to be good Bereans, searching out what the apostles had to say in the NT (not james, you would be surprised how many people in our area despise the epistle of james......yet most of them still dont really understand justification, so that group is slowly being worked on, we'll see what happens) Of course we as a group are not looking for a recent grad from Westminster east or west, nor any of the reformed baptist types to take control as the paid professional to teach us all he learned in school.......we are not opposed to the idea of elders (men and women....uh-oh) so we are also taking some of our discussions from Paul's letter to Titus. Those assemblies in various towns had no elders but had been planted a number of years earlier.
    The idea in this book follows a principle found in 2 Tim. 2:1-2) I think, that is over time as a family of genunine believers lives openly and honestly, learning to be gracious, learning not to overstep the truth that it is the Spirit that grows us in grace at His speed.
    There is just too much to write here I guess, but we did during our meal (love feast) break bread together and share the symbolic cup of the NT blood of our dear Lord. No one got drunk or got gluttonous, but we all talked about the things Jesus had done, the fact that He was coming back for us soon (as the prophet in the end of revelation says.....Jesus words..........I am coming soon, Amen. Come Lord Jesus........as the Spirit and the bride say the same. We in this feast each had individual glasses and had as much as we wanted throughout the meal and we also as we broke the loaf of bread had as much as we wanted of that as well. We also undrstood that there was a real unity in the true gospel with one another.........that is something Paul nailed the Corinthians on several times in the 1st letter alone.
    Oh, we're not starting a building fund either (oh why, lol) but are free to offer the money to things of real value, things that will have an eternal impact for the glory of Christ.......like our forum here which all of us members love, or whatever else (uh-oh, we're not tithers) We are learning to trust Jesus in Spirit...........learning, I emphasize this because none of us have ever experienced this freedom. This past weekend we spent 8 hours together seeking the Lord, worshipping, reading scripture, and a little of the Viola book.
    All of us are learning here on the forum too, despite the limitations, more and more we are a "real comunity" and should deeply appreciate what the Lord is doing here amongst us...........after all, all of us who share in the same gospel here are family. I re-read the letters to the 7 asian assemblies from John and the things Jesus said to them........rememebering that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever........Amen
    Jn 14:23-24, (NASB)
    Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, BUT The Father's Who sent Me.

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    I have been thinking a lot about things. I can only have a loose affiliation with my last church. By that I mean visiting friends once in a while.

    I cannot go back on what I have learnt and I cannot be a hypocrite either. However, the abrupt way in which I left my last church meant that it was right for me to show my face. It wasn't easy. I think that is only fair and right. I know that you have written these things because you are concerned for me. I appreciate that. Please pray for me. This is the best thing you can do for me. I have not and will not be cutting ties with the Gospel Standard church I have been attending. They have been good to me, and I agree with all of their doctrine.

    Thank you again and God Bless!

    Love in Christ,

    Kevin.

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawker View Post
    I have been thinking a lot about things. I can only have a loose affiliation with my last church. By that I mean visiting friends once in a while.

    I cannot go back on what I have learnt and I cannot be a hypocrite either. However, the abrupt way in which I left my last church meant that it was right for me to show my face. It wasn't easy. I think that is only fair and right. I know that you have written these things because you are concerned for me. I appreciate that. Please pray for me. This is the best thing you can do for me. I have not and will not be cutting ties with the Gospel Standard church I have been attending. They have been good to me, and I agree with all of their doctrine.
    Best wishes to you Kevin. I'm sure the Lord will lead you in the right direction.
    This is my signature.

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Kevin,

    We do not believe it is necessary to remove this thread--because we are not affirming that going back and attending your former church (to try and amend past faults that you are convicted of, or to try and establish some sort of new fellowship) is a sin. We are not upset that you brought up the issue for discussion. I, for one, will pray that in the future the Lord will lead you into His perfect will--on the matter of whom He would have you fellowship with in the long-term.

    I only pray that you will continue to participate with us in the future!

    Bro. Bob
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    I concur with all thats been said! kevin this thread was good to talk about, it reminds us to be careful of false prophets but that to know there is also the possibility of a few churches out there that speak the Truth. And even though most of a congregation believes something false there could be a few brethren within. So you going back to your church is okay, we just cautioned you because from our own experiences we know what its like to be in a church that teaches falsehood. But we do pray that you find those within who can share your same beliefs.

    I am glad that you told us, and shared this with us. Because now we can pray for you as you go back to your church. We all enjoy you here very much, so as Bob said we do hope you continue to bless us with your presence here on the forum, your our brother and we enjoy having fellowship with you right here!
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    I am grateful for all of the concern and have no intention of leaving the forum.

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Keep posting Kevin! I've enjoyed your posts alot.
    Col 2:9, (NASB), For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawker View Post
    I am grateful for all of the concern and have no intention of leaving the forum.
    I am glad to hear that. You have definitely been a blessing to me and I believe to this forum.
    Rom 8:18-21, (NASB), For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawker View Post
    I am grateful for all of the concern and have no intention of leaving the forum.
    Hurray!

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    I second that.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Since my last post, I have had a change of heart. Though I cannot say that I will never be back on this forum, all I can say is that my views have changed significantly.

    I think that hyper-calvinism tries to philosophise the will of God beyond what has been revealed in the scriptures. I find the harshness which is the fruit of these beliefs, hard to reconcile with the fact that we are commanded to love our enemies, and that the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance.

    For me, the fruit of hyper-calvinism is none of the above fruits of the Spirit. For this reason, I have resolved to let only the scriptures speak to me.

    Though God is Sovereign, there are certain things which are required of us as Christians or non-Christians. For example, what must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. We know the cause of the salvation is Jesus Christ, but we are held accountable, whether elect or reprobate for believing or not believing.

    I know from what I have seen on this forum that my views will be heavily criticised, but I would hope that when I go to heaven, I would see mercy from God, even though my understanding may not be perfect.

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin
    I find the harshness which is the fruit of these beliefs, hard to reconcile with the fact that we are commanded to love our enemies, and that the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance.
    Hi Kevin, please elaborate. How are our views "harsh?" Thanks!
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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Hi Kevin,

    I wanted to respond to what you said. Mainly, I am seeking some clarification about what you said. I am not trying to change your beliefs but just want to know the reason for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawker
    I think that hyper-calvinism tries to philosophise the will of God beyond what has been revealed in the scriptures.
    How so? Could you give us some examples? What doctrines that we hold to go beyond what is revealed in scripture?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawker
    I find the harshness which is the fruit of these beliefs, hard to reconcile with the fact that we are commanded to love our enemies, and that the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance.
    What do you consider harsh? Anti Duty Faith? Anti Free Offer of the Gospel? Double predestination? Others? Please explain what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawker
    For me, the fruit of hyper-calvinism is none of the above fruits of the Spirit.
    Again, explain a little bit more about what you are perceiving to be the fruit of hyper-calvinism? For me personally, I show love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance towards all men because I don't know who is elect or not. Just because someone currently shows no sign of regeneration by God doesn't mean they won't in the future. Just because someone rejects the gospel now doesn't mean God won't cause them to believe it later. God knows his sheep. I don't. So I show love to all and preach the gospel to all. The perfect example for this is Paul. When he was Saul most of the elect would have sworn he was damned to hell and a reprobate. However, God knew his chosen and called Paul in His timing. I believe no one here on the forum would disagree.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawker
    For this reason, I have resolved to let only the scriptures speak to me.
    That is good.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawker
    Though God is Sovereign, there are certain things which are required of us as Christians or non-Christians. For example, what must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. We know the cause of the salvation is Jesus Christ, but we are held accountable, whether elect or reprobate for believing or not believing.
    So are you saying faith is a duty? Even to the reprobate? What does it entail to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? Gill explains it better than me.

    "Act 16:31 And they said, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ,.... Not with a bare historical faith, as only to believe that he was the Son of God, and the Messiah, and that he was come in the flesh, and had suffered, and died, and rose again, and was now in heaven at the right hand of God, and would come again to judge both quick and dead, for there may be such a faith and no salvation; but so as to look unto him alone for life and salvation, to rely upon him, and trust in him; to commit himself, and the care of his immortal soul unto him, and to expect peace, pardon, righteousness, and eternal life from him; the answer is much the same our Lord returned to the Jews, when they asked, though not with the same affection and sincerity as this man, what they must do to work the works of God, Joh_6:28."

    Notice what Jesus says in John 6:28-29 to this point.

    Joh 6:28-29 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

    It is the work of God that anyone is able to believe in Christ. Where is our duty? It looks like it is God's duty to make the elect believe.

    In Love,

    Jimmy

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    I decline to argue any further. I am simply tired of all the theological wrangling. It seems to me that we are all about digging up controversy instead of exhorting each other to make our calling and election sure. Where is the mercy on those who disagree with your views? I don't see it. I am sorry.

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    I have no grudge with anyone here, and I am not bitter about anything. It is just that I know that my life was not producing fruit that shows mercy on anyone that was disagreeing with my very "harsh" views of God. We will only know the full truth when we go to see Jesus in heaven. Until then, we are commanded to love our brothers and sisters in Christ. I can't and will not judge anyone here, but I do judge my own heart, and this is what I have seen.

    I am sorry if you feel I have let you down, but I must do as my conscience leads me. I will no doubt be back here and will contribute where I can.

    My prayer is for all of us in all our studies to deepen our fellowship and communion with God. May the Lord grant you peace in all you do.

    Blessings to you all ALWAYS,

    Kevin.

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawker View Post
    I have no grudge with anyone here, and I am not bitter about anything. It is just that I know that my life was not producing fruit that shows mercy on anyone that was disagreeing with my very "harsh" views of God.
    Kevin, I feel that you kind of owe it to us to tell us what you think are your "harsh" views. I really want to know what it is and why you think it's harsh. Thanks - Brandan
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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill View Post
    Kevin, I feel that you kind of owe it to us to tell us what you think are your "harsh" views. I really want to know what it is and why you think it's harsh. Thanks - Brandan
    All I know was the fact that my spirit was harsh against anyone who disagreed with me. Instead of just talking about high grace theology, it is right to live high grace theology instead of just talking about it. I have learned a lot on here and will retain that which I have learned which is profitable, but I know that the fruit of a tree is very important. I know that in my life the fruit was arguing, contention and harshness in attitude.
    God have mercy.

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