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Thread: Theological controversies and disputes

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    There is no question that the New Testament commands us to extend unconditional love and grace toward the 'least of these my brethren', the elect, those who are regarded as the 'least' worthy of such love and grace in man's order of things. In contrast, most churches teach that such love and grace should be indiscriminatory--that it must be extended to all physical humans no matter what. This is used as a cover up to extend nothing but hatred and contempt toward those whose doctrine they despise the most--one of those entities being the so-called 'hyper-Calvinists.'

    Exercising Christ's command is very difficult and painful when another elect believer has offended or cheated us--I fully acknowledge that point. But I will not acknowledge the point that we are to show the same LEVEL of love and grace to those who OUTWARDLY manifest themselves as non-elect (based on their profession and life). THAT is where evangelical Fullerism is most off-base in its assertions. Note that I said OUTWARDLY--the fact that someone currenly acts and thinks like a non-elect person by all appearance DOES NOT MEAN that such a person is non-elect in God's eternal purpose! It only means that until God regenerates such a person, we cannot regard such a person as elect and treat such a person in the same manner as Christ's regenerate believers.

    The standard for what is truth should NEVER be what causes me to FEEL more love and grace toward bretheren who utter the name of Jesus. Nor should it be what causes me to FEEL more power to overcome 'sin.' The standard is God's revelation PERIOD. We have to be willing to stand alone; the old expression 'no man is an island' is the biggest lie the devil ever told. The loneliness of standing for God's truth in isolation is something that prophets and apostles had to experience for centuries; we cannot expect less than the suffering that they had to endure.

    In today's world, experiencing love and grace in community usually means AGREEING WITH and COMPLIMENTING those who deny the truth on critical gospel issues. I know that by all my years of experience in evangelical churches. But NOW and IN THE FUTURE, that is something I will NEVER do again!

    If there is any 'Methodist' set of points I can agree with, it is those of the Detroit potato chip maker Uncle Ray:

    I will:
    1. Not be afraid to speak the truth.
    2. Keep a clear conscience.
    3. Support others when they are right.
    4. Be willing to stand alone.
    5. Speak with humility.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Moderator Rlhuckle's Avatar
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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    God has ordained that most professors adopt the unbeliever's definition of terms (especially the terms "love" and "fellowship")--until the elect one's learn how hollow and superficial those definitions are-- and how "dutiful" those definitions are acted out-- sans true fellowship. Everybody has a role to play....

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    There is no question that the New Testament commands us to extend unconditional love and grace toward the 'least of these my brethren', the elect, those who are regarded as the 'least' worthy of such love and grace in man's order of things. In contrast, most churches teach that such love and grace should be indiscriminatory--that it must be extended to all physical humans no matter what. This is used as a cover up to extend nothing but hatred and contempt toward those whose doctrine they despise the most--one of those entities being the so-called 'hyper-Calvinists.'
    Well Robert, that is not my view. I believe that we should extend love and mercy to all, because we are told to love our enemies. Now, it is easy to extend love to those we agree with. But enemies, that is a different story. The fact that God commands this means that He will give grace for the command to be obeyed.


    Exercising Christ's command is very difficult and painful when another elect believer has offended or cheated us--I fully acknowledge that point.
    So do I. Agreed!

    But I will not acknowledge the point that we are to show the same LEVEL of love and grace to those who OUTWARDLY manifest themselves as non-elect (based on their profession and life).
    Given that we are not God, what gives us the right to decide who is more deserving of our love than others. Do we have a special insight as to who is saved and who is lost? No we don't. You know, the person who we think we should not show as much love to, may be sat right next to us in heaven one day.

    THAT is where evangelical Fullerism is most off-base in its assertions. Note that I said OUTWARDLY--the fact that someone currenly acts and thinks like a non-elect person by all appearance DOES NOT MEAN that such a person is non-elect in God's eternal purpose! It only means that until God regenerates such a person, we cannot regard such a person as elect and treat such a person in the same manner as Christ's regenerate believers.
    Again, we are not God. We need to be very careful here.

    The standard for what is truth should NEVER be what causes me to FEEL more love and grace toward bretheren who utter the name of Jesus. Nor should it be what causes me to FEEL more power to overcome 'sin.' The standard is God's revelation PERIOD.
    Agreed!

    We have to be willing to stand alone; the old expression 'no man is an island' is the biggest lie the devil ever told. The loneliness of standing for God's truth in isolation is something that prophets and apostles had to experience for centuries; we cannot expect less than the suffering that they had to endure.
    No man is an island is not from the pit of hell. It is true to a certain extent. There is a lonliness that is biblical and there is a lonliness that
    is not right. We were created for fellowship, after all, we were created for fellowship with God. It therefore follows that we were created for fellowship with people also. If we think that our views are so right and biblical, why would we want to hide away? Why would we not want other Christians to know our views? Is it not because we fear that our views would be exposed? I believe so. My prayer has to be, Lord if I am wrong about anything, show me.


    In today's world, experiencing love and grace in community usually means AGREEING WITH and COMPLIMENTING those who deny the truth on critical gospel issues. I know that by all my years of experience in evangelical churches. But NOW and IN THE FUTURE, that is something I will NEVER do again!
    I can only speak for myself, but I do not know all that there is to know about the Lord. I have MUCH to learn. We have to ask ourselves, do we have the whole counsel of God, or do we just have the piece that we want to hear or believe? Scripture affirms both responsibility of man and the Sovereignty of God. For example, Choose whom you will serve, one verse says. There are paradoxes in the bible. It is the paradoxes that make the gospel the gospel. We can't deny that both truths exist. When we do, we go from extreme arminianism to extreme calvinism. I don't want to fall in either ditch.


    If there is any 'Methodist' set of points I can agree with, it is those of the Detroit potato chip maker Uncle Ray:

    I will:
    1. Not be afraid to speak the truth.
    2. Keep a clear conscience.
    3. Support others when they are right.
    4. Be willing to stand alone.
    5. Speak with humility.
    Well I am not afraid to stand alone on this forum. We must keep our eyes on the scriptures, and sit at the feet of Jesus, learning from Him.

    If anyone wants to write to me privately about this, my email is krablessed@googlemail.com. Or else we can dialogue on here. I am quite happy to discuss the issues.

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin
    All I know was the fact that my spirit was harsh against anyone who disagreed with me. Instead of just talking about high grace theology, it is right to live high grace theology instead of just talking about it. I have learned a lot on here and will retain that which I have learned which is profitable, but I know that the fruit of a tree is very important. I know that in my life the fruit was arguing, contention and harshness in attitude.
    God have mercy.


    I think that hyper-calvinism tries to philosophise the will of God beyond what has been revealed in the scriptures. I find the harshness which is the fruit of these beliefs, hard to reconcile with the fact that we are commanded to love our enemies, and that the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance.

    For me, the fruit of hyper-calvinism is none of the above fruits of the Spirit. For this reason, I have resolved to let only the scriptures speak to me.

    I think that the key to your recent posts is your two words……for me (meaning yourself of course) You see I don’t find the fruit of the complete Sovereignty of God in ALL things harsh at all. It is a balm to my soul and a delight to my heart and because it is the Truth it doesn’t cause me to treat those around me in a harsh manner, nor judge them because I know that God is Sovereign over them. Judging them and disagreeing with what they are saying are entirely two different things Kevin. Words sometimes of necessity do sound harsh, that is a fact of life that will never change, but that doesn’t always mean the attitude is harsh.

    The fruit of the Spirit, we have been told, is only an outward display of how we treat our neighbor and is all about us (hence those pesky fruit inspectors). I don’t believe that is necessarily true. The fruit of the Spirit of love, joy and peace is all about Christ and His work in us. It is not about the love I have for all people it is about the love Christ has for me and that has been shed abroad in my heart in regeneration. It is the joy of my salvation and the peace that I have because God has peace with me and that peace passes all understanding. Faith ONLY comes to us by the Spirit and is the fruit of the Spirit Himself (the law of faith written on our heart) and so we walk by our faith.

    While it is true that we begin in this life to be conformed to the image of Christ, to manifest longsuffering as He is longsuffering with us, to be kindhearted to one another, to live at peace as much as lies within us etc., it is dangerous I believe to think that because you felt harsh towards someone that makes the doctrine itself the culprit. I pray you will continue to interact and to answer some of the questions that have been asked by several here because you haven’t done that yet and they are very good and revealing questions.

    Grace and Peace,
    Eileen~
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawker View Post
    All I know was the fact that my spirit was harsh against anyone who disagreed with me. Instead of just talking about high grace theology, it is right to live high grace theology instead of just talking about it. I have learned a lot on here and will retain that which I have learned which is profitable, but I know that the fruit of a tree is very important. I know that in my life the fruit was arguing, contention and harshness in attitude.
    God have mercy.
    Kevin I feel bad that your fruit was arguing, contention, and harshness in attitude. However that's you. If you are trying to infer that Hyper-Calvinists (your terminology), are all like that, then I disagree (in love that is).

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Kevin in all love and sincerity of heart. I firmly believe that in your quest for human interaction, the church folk that you are participating with are beating you up (emotionally) not because they so want your fellowship, but rather they hate the truth of the pure pristine high Grace Gospel. any attempt to stand and defend this unique gospel will always be considered as unloving, harsh, lack of the fruit of the Holy Spirit and so forth. It is there unloving way of saying they love you.

    The truth givin to the mind and heart is the only true fruit of love and the Holy spirit.

    Everyone who professes to be a Christian teaches their particular brand of the gospel passionately. and only hypers are unloving and harsh?

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Higby
    There is no question that the New Testament commands us to extend unconditional love and grace toward the 'least of these my brethren', the elect, those who are regarded as the 'least' worthy of such love and grace in man's order of things. In contrast, most churches teach that such love and grace should be indiscriminatory--that it must be extended to all physical humans no matter what.
    The Christian is called to love his enemies. The Christian is called to love his neighbor. In the parable of the good samaritan, Christ tells us that our neighbor is anyone that we come in contact with.

    Matthew 5:43-48 You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 "And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    The Christian is called to love his enemies. The Christian is called to love his neighbor. In the parable of the good samaritan, Christ tells us that our neighbor is anyone that we come in contact with.

    Matthew 5:43-48 You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 "And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
    This is the issue here in a nutshell. Well said Charles.
    Thank you all for your responses. I know I have some questions to answer, and I will answer them all in due course.

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    I am called to love my enemies. However, I am not commanded to regard those who deny the gospel as brothers or to treat them as if they have presently received God's grace. So that is the distinction.

    I do not agree with any religious teacher who flattens the concept of agape to be absolutely indiscriminatory toward believers and unbelievers. Such teachers also exhort us that we have as much responsiblity to help the world's poor in general as we do gospel believers in need. Hogwash!
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    I will not regard those who deny the Gospel as our brothers either. I stand with Paul, those who teach "another gospel" are ANATHEMA!
    Col 2:9, (NASB), For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    I am called to love my enemies.
    Agreed.

    However, I am not commanded to regard those who deny the gospel as brothers

    No one is saying you should treat them as brothers, but our attitude needs to be right with them.

    or to treat them as if they have presently received God's grace. So that is the distinction.
    We can end up presuming we know who these people are. A big mistake in my view.

    I do not agree with any religious teacher who flattens the concept of agape to be absolutely indiscriminatory toward believers and unbelievers. Such teachers also exhort us that we have as much responsiblity to help the world's poor in general as we do gospel believers in need. Hogwash!
    Do unbelievers not need to see the love of God in action? Again, it comes down to us thinking we know who the elect are. We don't, so we better be careful we don't try and play the part of God. We are only the creature.

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Kevin: Scripture affirms both the responsibility of man and the Sovereignty of God. For example, Choose whom you will serve, one verse says. There are paradoxes in the bible. It is the paradoxes that make the gospel the gospel. We can't deny that both truths exist. When we do, we go from extreme arminianism to extreme calvinism.

    Not a response to Kevin but a notice to all readers: In case you missed it, these affirmations are the doctrines that the staff of p-net completely renounces and this will be made clear in our future articles of faith.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    Kevin: Scripture affirms both the responsibility of man and the Sovereignty of God. For example, Choose whom you will serve, one verse says. There are paradoxes in the bible. It is the paradoxes that make the gospel the gospel. We can't deny that both truths exist. When we do, we go from extreme arminianism to extreme calvinism.

    Not a response to Kevin but a notice to all readers: In case you missed it, these affirmations are the doctrines that the staff of p-net completely renounces and this will be made clear in our future articles of faith.
    This may be what you renounce, but the fact is, if you deny that this is the case, you are denying the clear teaching of scripture.

    Though God chooses His children, we still make a choice as to who we serve, as is said above. Just because it doesn't favour the high calvinistic system, drawn up by men, doesn't mean that we can just ignore it as non-existant in the bible, because it is there. You cannot explain it away by your systematic theology. I did that myself, but I have come to realise that this is not being honest with the bible.

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Kevin: "Though God chooses His children, we still make a choice as to who we serve".

    Our "choice" is still determined by God. The very fact that we "choose" Him is because of His awesome grace, making us choose Him. If it weren't for Him, we would NEVER "choose" Him. He gives us the "new heart, and causes us to walk in His ways". It's all of His grace!
    Col 2:9, (NASB), For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawker View Post
    This may be what you renounce, but the fact is, if you deny that this is the case, you are denying the clear teaching of scripture.
    Actually Kevin, you are incorrect here and I will show you.

    Though God chooses His children,
    This part is true.

    Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    ...we still make a choice as to who we serve, as is said above.
    This part is untrue. The scripture says:

    Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    Just because it doesn't favour the high calvinistic system, drawn up by men, doesn't mean that we can just ignore it as non-existant in the bible, because it is there. You cannot explain it away by your systematic theology. I did that myself, but I have come to realise that this is not being honest with the bible.
    Your entire premise is incorrect, it is God who chooses and is responsible for his elect. Just what is it that your choosing can accomplish that He hasn't already done?

    The elect don't have anything to choose, He has already chosen it for us. We joyfully walk in his decrees and accomplish that which He has chose for us.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawker View Post
    I decline to argue any further. I am simply tired of all the theological wrangling. It seems to me that we are all about digging up controversy instead of exhorting each other to make our calling and election sure. Where is the mercy on those who disagree with your views? I don't see it. I am sorry.
    On the contrary I have found love and encouragement here much more than any church I have ever gone to. I have found more grace and forgiveness here than any other church. People here Know God, and the KNOW Grace. They know grace more than anyone else, because these people are the children of God. Im unsure who has been talking to you, or why you have turned on the family of God here. We talk of theology here only to encourage and uplift.. we are growing in Christ, becoming wiser.. challenging each other. It is like the Proverbs... full of wisdom. That is what this place is...

    There is grace and mercy here like no other place before. We know that it is God who opens our eyes and our ears to hear His Truth, and no one else. We know it is God who saves us. We honor and give glory to God alone and not man. When we disagree with a belief we are not mean to that person we are disagreeing because its false and it doesn't give glory to our Father in Heaven. Arminiasm.. those who believe in a false Gospel are wrong, why show mercy? DO we act as if they are our brethren just to be nice? How is that nice in letting them stay in their false beliefs? This Truth is precious to me and real, I want to share it with them. I want to expose the lies of the devil they believe, to share with them the Truths of Our Lord. I want them to have forgiveness and grace like I do, I want them to know they are loved and accepted in the body. They dont have to "work" for their salvation and acceptance. They dont have to "work" to have God or people love them.

    Im sorry you feel this way.. Im sorry you think that by our discussing of theological beliefs here, and I our disagreeing with those who believe in free will is unloving. I hope and pray that the Lord shows you otherwise.. it is very loving... it is loving to share the Gospel message with believers. It is loving to teach each other Gods Truths. It is loving even to discpline.. like our Lord does. We love each other.. and we love our enemies. As another said we do not know who is elect so treat everyone very kindly. It is the the lies and the false teaching that we do not like. Nor does our Lord.

    I hope you take some time to pray and consider staying with us, and growing and being encouraged by the brethren here. You've always had so much to say, and you've always been so kind to us. I do hope to stay and learn to grow in Christ with us. You'll be in my thoughts and prayers Kevin.
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes


    Kevin, it seems your are struggling with what most people do when they come to a realization of the Gospel. And you're still holding on to false teachings, humans do not choose whether to believe in God or not. We do not have a free will. Salvation is not dependent upon what we do, but what Christ did. It was finished at the cross. Its not finished when we decide whether to follow Christ or not.

    Here's some verses.. take them to the Lord in prayer.. and ask that He opens your eyes and ears. This is the pure and simple Gospel message, the Truth. You add nothing to your salvation, your decision to follow or reject Christ is not out of your free will. God is the one who directs that choice.. if you choose to follow Christ it is because of God at work in you. If you choose to reject Him it is because of God. God creates His family who He opens their eyes to see the Gospel.. and He creates those whom are not His whom He keeps their eyes closed.

    "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see". We cannot save ourselves.. when we are lost, we are lost. God found us.. we cannot make ourselves unblind.. God opened our eyes. It is God which causes us to believe in Him and choose to be a follower.

    In life we can choose to do the right thing, or follow God in our daily lives. We can make a choice.. yeah it seems like we have a free will.. But we know that behind that choice.. whatever happens is EXACTLY what God wanted to happen. Because HE is sovereign over all events.

    Here's the Scriptures.. think upon these things.. drop the false lies the devil tells you.. drop the false teachings from churches around you... purely think upon these verses. They are powerful.. they once turned my friend Nick from believing lies to the Truth. The once turned me away from my old church into the best relationship with God I could ever wish for. The gospel is a spring of water.. a refreshment.. all joy to those who are lost. These verses will if God gives you eyes to see.. show you the false teachings of the churches near you. To take a stand for this Truth is not unloving but loving.. to share Gods message of the Gospel is loving, and to deny false teachings is loving.

    Meditate on these..
    Matthew 19:25,26, (NASB), “Then who can be saved?” And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
    John 6:37, (NASB), All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
    John 6:44, (NASB), No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him
    John 15:16, (NASB), You did not choose Me but I chose you

    Wow this last verse contradicts what you said.. we didnt choose God but HE chose us. He chose you Kevin, He chose to open your eyes to see the Truth. He chose to save you, He chose to make you follow Him. Not you.. it isn't about you.

    Acts 2:39, (NASB), For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to himself.
    Acts 13:48, (NASB), and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed


    Our God calls us.. as many as the Lord our God will call to himself. The Lord calls you to Himself.. He opens your eyes and ears to hear His Truth and follow Him. That is NOT YOUR CHOICE. There is NO FREE WILL. All that talk, all that garbage... its lies.. lies the devil has planted in this world firmly to deceive. Dont let him deceive you. Believe the Truth of the Gospel. If your fruits have been unloving or harsh.. change your disposition but dont change your thoughts on the Gospel message. To preach the Gospel and correct people of their false ideas is the MOST LOVING thing you can do. Not correcting them is unloving...

    1 Corinthians 1:30, (NASB), But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption.
    Galatians 1:15,16, (NASB), But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me.
    Ephesians 1:4,5, (NASB), just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.
    Ephesians 1:9, (NASB), He made known to us the mystery of His Will.
    Philippians 1:29, (NASB), For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.
    1 Corinthians 15:10, (NASB), But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.
    2 Corinthians 3:4,5, (NASB), Such confidence we have through Christ toward God, Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves.


    Our belief in Christ DID NOT come from ourselves but from God, who caused us to believe in Him. 2 Corinthians sayts that.. not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider ANYTHING as coming from ourselves. Our faith is from God alone... us believing is from Him alone because He opened our eyes to see and our ears to hear his most beautiful Truth of all. That He is lord over all. I do pray and hope God will open your eyes to these Truths. And that you will understand I am very loving.. along with many here.


    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Kevin, it is true that those that God foreknew are predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ. This will involve change in a person's life. That change is doing and not doing things in a person's life. It also involves knowledge, but it is God that is doing these things in our lives. It is God that works in us to do His good pleasure. It is God that makes us willing. We love God, because He first loved us. So, salvation does not hinge on what we do, but on what God has done and is doing in our lives. The evidence of that is being conformed into the image of His Son, which is the work of God in our lives. A person examining himself with fear and trembling to see if he be in the faith or not, is also God working in that person. Salvation is all of the Lord and we really have nothing to do with it. It is God working in us. We can not take any credit, even for our obedience to the Gospel.
    Rom 8:18-21, (NASB), For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    Kevin: Scripture affirms both the responsibility of man and the Sovereignty of God. For example, Choose whom you will serve, one verse says. There are paradoxes in the bible. It is the paradoxes that make the gospel the gospel. We can't deny that both truths exist. When we do, we go from extreme arminianism to extreme calvinism.

    Not a response to Kevin but a notice to all readers: In case you missed it, these affirmations are the doctrines that the staff of p-net completely renounces and this will be made clear in our future articles of faith.
    Thanks Bob. God is responsible - not me! He is responsible for all things because he is the mover and the shaker. He determined all things and all things are HIS responsibility.


    http://www.predestinarian.net/library/showentry.php?e=4

    Hyper-Calvinism, simply stated, is a doctrine that emphasizes divine sovereignty to the exclusion of human responsibility. (Phil Johnson, A Primer on Hyper-Calvinism, 1998)

    Mr. Johnson, it’s amazing to me that you strike out on the very first sentence of your article. A well grounded believer that is only interested in reading edifying material would stop reading your article upon reading this first sentence as he would immediately recognize this statement of yours is rooted in an unbiblical presupposition. If you are referring to human responsibility concerning salvation, then according to this definition of yours you have certainly properly labeled me a hyper-calvinist as I certainly contend that men are not in any way responsible for salvation. Responsibility in the dictionary is defined as “a duty” or “obligation”. In other words, what I perceive you to be stating is that men have a duty to be saved. By suggesting that men have any responsibility whatsoever you are stating that men have free agency. But if one were to exhaust the entire contents of Scripture – the entire 66 books of the Bible – one would not find a single reference to \"human responsibility.\" It is true that men will be held accountable (not to be confused with “responsibility”) as they will be held answerable to God; but to refer to accountability as responsibility is misleading and dishonest. If men are responsible in any way for attaining their salvation, then Grace is no longer Grace and salvation is procured by a fulfilled condition on the part of man. Paul in his letter to the Galatians calls this “another gospel” (Gal. 1:6).
    This is my signature.

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    Re: Theological controversies and disputes

    Quote Originally Posted by MCoving View Post
    Arminiasm.. those who believe in a false Gospel are wrong, why show mercy? DO we act as if they are our brethren just to be nice?

    We love each other.. and we love our enemies. As another said we do not know who is elect so treat everyone very kindly.
    Can you not see the obvious contradiction in these two statements, highlighted? I think there is somewhat of a paradox here.


    I hope you take some time to pray and consider staying with us, and growing and being encouraged by the brethren here. You've always had so much to say, and you've always been so kind to us. I do hope to stay and learn to grow in Christ with us. You'll be in my thoughts and prayers Kevin.
    I may have been kind, but I know that I have been wrong. I am sorry if I have come across unkind and unloving now, but Lord help me if I am wrong.

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