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Thread: The Law and the Christian

  1. #121
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    Tracy
    Keep on readin.Theres plenty more wrath after REV.14

  2. #122
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    I do. The 'day of the Lord' is a phrase used throughout the OT to refer to the judgement of god on the physical nation of Israel. The same message was preached during Jesus' time (they were still living under the OC when he was alive). Throughout the rest of his generation, the apostles preached a similar message except they stated that it was 'about to' take place. Therefore, I believe that it has already occurred.

    Grace to you,

    jak

  3. #123
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    Hi JAK
    Could you please exegis this scripture foe me.If its already happened id like to know when.THANK YOU

    ZEPH.14[1] Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.[2] For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.[3] Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.[4] And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. [12] And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. [16] And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles

  4. #124
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    GAP,

    First, I would like your interpretation of that passage!

    Thanks,

    jak

  5. #125
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    Gaps, concerning Isaiah 13, Matthew Henry wrote the following:. "

    It is the burden of Babylon or Babel, which at this time was a dependent upon the Assyrian monarchy (the metropolis of which was Nineveh), but soon after revolted from it and became a monarchy of itself, and a very potent one, in Nebuchadnezzar. This prophet afterwards foretold the captivity of the Jews in Babylon, ch. xxxix. 6. Here he foretels the reprisals God would make upon Babylon for the wrongs done to his people. In these verses a summons is given to those powerful and warlike nations whom God would make us of as the instruments of his wrath for the destruction of Babylon: he afterwards names them (v. 17) the Medes, who, in conjunction with the Persians, under the command of Darius and Cyrus, were the ruin of the Babylonian monarchy."

    The NIV study bible says: (v.1)This prophecy concerns Babylon during the Addyrian empire rather than during the Neo-Babylonian empire. Thus the prophecy is actually against the Assyrian empire, Babylon being its most important city. From *722 B.C. on, the kings of Assuria also assumed the title "king of Babylon".

    In the "bible knowledge commentary" edited by John F Walvoord and Rou Zuck (both of which are staunce dispensational premillennialists) recognizes historical fulfillments of the "day of the Lord" throughout the O.T..

    The N.I.V says "the Day of the Lord is a time of judgment and/or blessing as God intervenes decisively in the affairs of the nations (see. Zep 1:13-2:3). Assyria and Babylon would bring the terror of judgment upon Judah in Isaiah's day (Is. 5:30)."

    Concerning The Day of the Lord against Babylon in Is. 13 Matthew Henry wrote,

    "God was *about to appear in wrath against them*, and it is a fearful thing to fall into his hands: The day of the Lord is at hand (v. 6), a little day of judgment, when God will act as a just avenger of his own and his people's injured cause. And there are those who will have reason to tremble when that day is at hand. The day of the Lord cometh, v. 9. Men have their day now, and they think to carry the day; but God laughs at them, for he sees that his day is coming, Ps. xxxvii. 13. Fury is not with God, and yet his day of reckoning with the Babylonians is said to be cruel with wrath and fierce anger. God will deal in severity with them for the severities they exercised upon God's people; with the froward, with the cruel, he will show himself froward, will show himself cruel, and give the blood-thirsty blood to drink".

    The proper question is: Who doesn't believe that the "Day of the Lord" represents historical manifestations of Judgment against the nations in history! Whether you agree with this or not, you would be hard pressed to convince either me, Jak, et. al that NOBODY believes it! Not only do most commentaries bear this out, but also the most popular study bibles!

    Tracy

  6. #126
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    Gaps, I agree with Jack here...in fact I think everyone here would like to hear your take on this passage. I am particularly interrested in how you interpret v. 16 which says,

    "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even *go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles*".

    Earlier you affirmed to Jack that: "Above scripture says the ordinances were nailed to the cross. Do you see this Odyssey?" which you later quoted to me. You then proceeded to tell Jack and I (et. al) that Colossians and 2Chronicles identifies "feasts" among other "ordinances" that were 'nailed' to the cross (abolished).

    Now we would like to hear why v. 16 must be future whereas the "feast of booths" (as an ordinance) was abolished in Christ (in the past).

    Thank you
    Tracy

    Oh, I almost forgot...how do you reconcile the (alledged) future "going up" to Jerusalem "year by year to worship the King" in Zach 14:16 with John. 4:21-24? Jesus told the Samaritan woman to "believe me...a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem". Any comments would be appreciated...Thanks

  7. #127
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    Youse believe Jesus was (is)here already and the Day of the Lord has already come and gone.Well so am i.
    I didnt know that this was some sort of cult discussion board.
    Take care.

  8. #128
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    Gaps. This thread has gone way off topic. This may partially be my fault for introducing the soteriological, priestly (levitical) nature of the second coming as it pertains to the yom kippur.

    In defense of this forum, it is not cultic. Everyone that has been involved in this discussion can plainly see that your resorting to this false accusation against the forum is an evasive ploy to avoid the issues that have been adressed to you.

    Since, my views may not be those of the forum or all its members,
    I apologize to the forum (and all members) if I have in fact pushed Gaps into resorting to this false accusation against the forum.

    Tracy

  9. #129
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    Tracy,

    You are not at fault. GAPS has refused to substantiate his claims and is unable to answer the question; he's the one who chose to resort to name-calling. Let's wait and see whether he will keep his promise to stay away.

    I have enjoyed your posts; very interesting!
    cm
    "In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity." - St. Augustine of Hippo

  10. #130
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    Thank you for your comments CM. I have also found your comments interresting as well...particularly those that addressed the symbolism in Isaiah.

    Tracy

  11. #131
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    Jack,

    I would like to hear your views on the zachriah passage that has recently come up. I have been reading the Gentry/Ice debate ("the great tribulation") and Ice has made some very good points that Gentry never adressed. In fact Ice pressed Gentry for some answers in a class room (dispensational students) recently when Gentry was invited as a guest speaker. Gentry basically folded (at least according to Ice).

    In case you are not farmiliar with the book I will reproduce Ice's comparison between Zacheriah 12-14 with Luke 21:20-24 below.

    Luke 21:20-24- Past fulfillment-led captive to all noation
    Zach 12-14-Eschatological fulfillment "in that day"

    L-day of the desolation of jerusalem
    z-day of deliverance of jerusalem

    l- day of vengeance against jerusalem
    z-day of victory for jerusalem

    L-day of wrath against Jewish nation
    Z-day of wrath against gentile nations

    L-jerusalem trampled by Gentiles
    Z-jerusalem transformed by God

    L-time of Gentile dominion over jerusalem
    Z-time of gentile submission in Jerusalem

    L-great distress upon the land
    Z-great deliverance for the land

    L-nations bring the sword to jerusalem
    Z-nations bring their wealth to jerusalem

    L-Jerusalem destroyed (A>D> 70 "in order that all things written (concerning jewish people) may be fulfilled" (in the future. v.22)
    Z-Jerusalem rescued and redeemed so that all things written (concerning the jewish people may be fulfilled (13:1-9)/

    L-Jerusalems desolation is given a time limit: "until the times of the gentiles is fulfilled...this implies that a time of restoration will follow
    Z-the attack on jerusalem is the occasion for the final defeat of israel's enemies, this ending the times of the gentiles

    L-The messiah comes in power and glory to be seen by the jewish people only "after these things, namely the events of vv25-28, which are yet future to the events of vv20-24)
    Z-the messiah comes in power and glory during the events of the battle

    Some of his seeming "discrepancies" between Zachariah and A.D. 70 are easily dismissed, but others are more difficult. It goes without saying that the "literal hermeneutic" is the strength of his argument.

    What are your thoughts?

    Tracy

  12. #132
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    i just wanted to add my two cents for the readers (and GAPS) that this board is not some sort of cult and not all of us share a similar eschatology (i.e., end times theology). but i think we all share (at least our regulars) a common (similar) understanding of the Covenants, that Jesus is the fulfillment and consummation of the Old (in every sense), that His death initiated the New, that Jesus is the mediator of the New, and that through faith alone in Him one can be saved (i.e., justified). am i correct in my assessment? i think this is where GAPS clearly parts company with most of us.

  13. #133
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    Hi, disciple

    I think your assessment is correct. As one who was formerly steeped in dispensationalist doctrines, I understand Gap's built-in suspicion of all who do not interpret Scripture accordingly. I pray that the Lord will lead him to a better understanding.

    Grace and Peace,
    cm
    "In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity." - St. Augustine of Hippo

  14. #134
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    Here, here, disciple!

    jak

  15. #135
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    Tracy,

    First, the way that a lot of people interpret Z is physically (this is probably how Ice does it). With that premise we have some things to consider. A very good friend of mine gave me the following information:
    Obviously you are literalizing this verse. So with that hermeneutic, let's literalize the rest of the passage and see if it rests well with you:
    Zec 14:6 On that day there shall not be either cold or frost.
    Zec 14:7 And there shall be continuous day (it is known to the LORD), not day and not night, for at evening time there shall be light.
    You would say literal.

    Zec 14:8 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea; it shall continue in summer as in winter.

    So are these literal living waters, or is this referring to a spiritual reality in Christ (See John 4 and the woman at the well and John 7:37-39).

    Zec 14:9 And the LORD will become king over all the earth; on that day the LORD will be one and his name one.
    Consider the light of Christ. He said he is the Light of the world, and in Him there is no darkness, and if we are in Him we do not walk in darkness but walk in the light as He is in the light. We are not in darkness, therefore it is always day.

    The beginning of the passage will give you some help:

    Zech 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

    In AD70, Jerusalem suffered the devistation described in these verses, so we have to keep the rest of the passage in context.. The Day of the Lord was the period of the manifestation of Christ to Israel, first in his Flesh which ended in His death and resurrection, second in the Power of His Spirit poured out upon His people, and finally in his glorious return in judgement on the unfaithful nation in 70AD.

    One other point:
    When were all nations (Gentiles) gathered against Jerusalem?

    Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    And we know that these things all happened within the generation of the apostles:

    Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
    There was another teaching on it some where in my library which I can't find right now, but when I do, I will pass it along.

    Grace to you,

    jak

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