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Thread: Unitariansm vs. The Trinity

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    Re: Unitariansm vs. The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer View Post
    Once again, I understand your assertion (I appreciate your clarity), I think that in the context of the WHOLE of chapter 5, I would post this same verse in this manner......

    1 John 5:20 "And we know that the Son of GOD has come, and has given us understanding so that we may Know HIM WHO is true; and we are in HIM WHO is true, "IN" HIS Son Jesus Christ. This is THE TRUE GOD and eternal life."

    Jesus came to Gorify his Father, not himself. My blog contains all of John's relevant scriptures to clarify these, from his gospels and epistles, I just havnt posted his Revelation in certain places, which I intend to do today if Nick will lay off. Please permit my just color as couldnt emphasize this any better to honestly show my "mind"

    I have posted 3 "bite size" portions today in this thread, in sections, and responded to 2 other posts, that's enough, Nick if you have a problem with this, call Brandan.
    I still dont see your thinking here how you can deny that this verse says that Jesus Christ is THE TRUE GOD. Unless you are saying Jesus is the true image of God but not true God Himself. Or you are saying that Jesus is a second god. It clearly states that Jesus Himself is THE GOD. The God as in The Father God.
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Re: Unitariansm vs. The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by GraceAmbassador View Post
    I agree and and said something to that effect a few posts ago.

    Now, Brandan, someone has to admit that, if there is anything that anyone voices agreement with him in other threads from now on, it will be the same as offering the right hand of fellowship. I don't agree when a Mormon refers to Jesus as "the savior" because the word "savior" means something totatally different to me and if I just accept this premise of "savior" it will be equivalent to fellowshiping; that is not acceptable according to the Apostolic command.

    Milt
    On this note though I do want to say that we dont know for sure who is elect and who is not. Bryan since he once believed what is true and the Gospel message and the true Christ could very well be elect but LOST at the present moment.. he could be that sheep that wandererd from the fold. But still sheep. I will like most others not agree with anything that is false, and I do have doubts as to whether one who thinks these beliefs are converted at this point in time, But since i do not now for sure that Bryan is nonelect and reprobrate I shall treat him as if He is my brother. And I would hope that all of us do, and even more so Jesus says we are to love our enemies. I know emotions are high and such, but one who may agree with some of the truths Bryan says doesn't necessarily mean they are siding with him on all things.. or necessarily extending a hand of fellowship saying FOR SURE they know Bryan to be brethren. But I for one would rather treat someone like this as brethren then find out later He was all along and I treated him in a rude and mean like manner. I hope that makes sense....

    PS: sorry for my posts I didn't realize this thread was closing when I responded with my ideas, I guess I was a little late in everything. Thanks for the patients and mercy.
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Re: Unitariansm vs. The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey View Post
    I've been following this thread and I have to say that I have lost a lot of respect for the mods on this forum. I do disagree with Bryan but what took place in this thread was a disgrace.

    What could have been done differently Mickey? Would you have liked us to entertain the thought that Bryan is correct and defend the trinity? Or your thought that the trinity/deity of Christ is tradition and possibly not scripture?
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: Unitariansm vs. The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah View Post
    What could have been done differently Mickey? Would you have liked us to entertain the thought that Bryan is correct and defend the trinity? Or your thought that the trinity/deity of Christ is tradition and possibly not scripture?
    Joe last time I checked you aren't a mod, however your 'interaction' was just as pathetic.


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    Re: Unitariansm vs. The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by MCoving View Post
    On this note though I do want to say that we dont know for sure who is elect and who is not. Bryan since he once believed what is true and the Gospel message and the true Christ could very well be elect but LOST at the present moment.. he could be that sheep that wandererd from the fold. But still sheep. I will like most others not agree with anything that is false, and I do have doubts as to whether one who thinks these beliefs are converted at this point in time, But since i do not now for sure that Bryan is nonelect and reprobrate I shall treat him as if He is my brother. And I would hope that all of us do, and even more so Jesus says we are to love our enemies. I know emotions are high and such, but one who may agree with some of the truths Bryan says doesn't necessarily mean they are siding with him on all things.. or necessarily extending a hand of fellowship saying FOR SURE they know Bryan to be brethren. But I for one would rather treat someone like this as brethren then find out later He was all along and I treated him in a rude and mean like manner. I hope that makes sense....

    PS: sorry for my posts I didn't realize this thread was closing when I responded with my ideas, I guess I was a little late in everything. Thanks for the patients and mercy.
    Mary ... do you think that Christ's deity is central to being a Christian? I am not talking about a litney test here. Just one main central point. Jesus is in fact God or we are on our own to prove our own worthiness to God. I don't see any room for calling a person that denies this our brother. I guess I would have to ask myself ... Would Paul include such an individual in the church? Can't find it scripture ... can you? Bryan has with these statements removed himself from Christianity IMHO. You aren't saved then lost then saved again. I am not speaking of doctrinal regeneration here but this point again is not an issue that can be compromised.

    This may be a new topic for another thread or it may be a point that is not relevant but to me it is THE POINT in christianity.

    You are an excellent writer and I liked what you said until your last point. It isn't being mean spirited to call a spade a spade. Back to my favorite phrase ... it is what it is.

    Jan
    It is what it is

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    Re: Unitariansm vs. The Trinity

    If you guys think that hurling labels at someone and accusing them of particular heresies in the way you guys did passes as defending the truth then you have lost your touch. This forum had a reputation (at least in my eyes) of formulation strong scriptural and logical responses to those in error. I saw a few bring that while others resorted to cheap polemics, much like those who apposed the view that James was not scripture.

    How is Bryan supposed to a please everyone by answering all of your questions and responding to your accusations when it's one on ten. Bryan's questions weren't being answered so why is he being ridiculed for not answering some questions, he's trying. I think because it's Bryan and we've known him for so long that there should be some room given for actual dialogue, but that's just me, I'm not a Mod.

    If someone comes to the forum and want's to debate free-will or that James is scripture, most likely now they would be referred to past discussions, but do you leap to calling them names? Are you so worried about what others on the internet will think about this forum that you have to resort to their same tactics? Screw them, most of them reject the gospel anyway and they hate you for 'denying' scripture! The way you 'tore' down Bryan is like putting lipstick on a pig TO THEM.


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    Re: Unitariansm vs. The Trinity

    nevermind
    It is what it is

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    Re: Unitariansm vs. The Trinity

    Mary, I agree with Jan - your post was great until that last paragraph. If we treat Bryan as a brother, we would only help to affirm his position in his mind. It is better now to hand him over to Satan. If we love Bryan - and I DO - I will treat him in the way that I think is best for him.

    Michael, read Jan's post below.
    This is my signature.

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    Re: Unitariansm vs. The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey View Post
    If you guys think that hurling labels at someone and accusing them of particular heresies in the way you guys did passes as defending the truth then you have lost your touch. This forum had a reputation (at least in my eyes) of formulation strong scriptural and logical responses to those in error. I saw a few bring that while others resorted to cheap polemics, much like those who apposed the view that James was not scripture.

    How is Bryan supposed to a please everyone by answering all of your questions and responding to your accusations when it's one on ten. Bryan's questions weren't being answered so why is he being ridiculed for not answering some questions, he's trying.
    Mickey denying the Deity of Christ isn't some particular heresy. While the discussion on the book of James is something that we can agree to disagree on and still remain a brother or sister in Christ. You are comparing apples with oranges. What do you think Bryan expected when he posted the statements ... Jesus is NOT God ... Jesus is a creation of God ... Jesus is a sinless man, a good man but only a mere man. That to me is somewhat surprising. Perhaps you can show me my error because I am as guilty of this as any of the moderators here. If I am in error please correct me.
    THANKS!!
    It is what it is

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    Re: Unitariansm vs. The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by doctr_of_grace View Post
    Mickey denying the Deity of Christ isn't some particular heresy. While the discussion on the book of James is something that we can agree to disagree on and still remain a brother or sister in Christ. You are comparing apples with oranges. What do you think Bryan expected when he posted the statements ... Jesus is NOT God ... Jesus is a creation of God ... Jesus is a sinless man, a good man but only a mere man. That to me is somewhat surprising. Perhaps you can show me my error because I am as guilty of this as any of the moderators here. If I am in error please correct me.
    THANKS!!
    That's just your opinion Jan, many would say denying the book of James places you in the same camp as liberal skeptics, in fact we have been accused of that. Why do you think Luther recanted and why didn't Calvin come out in public and state it? They would have been burned.


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    Re: Unitariansm vs. The Trinity

    It's just your opinion too Michael.
    This is my signature.

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    Re: Unitariansm vs. The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey View Post
    Joe last time I checked you aren't a mod, however your 'interaction' was just as pathetic.
    You better change your tone when speaking with me Mickey. I am getting sick and tired of your attitude towards me. But then again, Oregon in the winter when one goes to work in the dark and comes home in the dark and only has a 3 hour day, I can understand your way of interaction.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: Unitariansm vs. The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey View Post
    Joe last time I checked you aren't a mod, however your 'interaction' was just as pathetic.
    I am part of the 'secret society of mods'...

    Again, what could have been done differently? You certainly are not the barometer of giving someone ample time to present their case when they disagree with your schemes, so enlighten me on what was a disgrace here?
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: Unitariansm vs. The Trinity

    Hello fellow saints and other participants to this forum.

    It is of my opinion that both sides of this critical issue have been stated and with scriptural support.

    As with all understanding and belief, only God can guide His people into truth.

    What more can be said? Let's move on and hope and pray that Bryan will be given enlightenment, wisdom, understanding, and above all Faith to see Christ as the scriptures and Apostolic witness testify to Him as. That is God almighty!

    I'm closing this thread. If other mods want to re-open the thread, then do so.

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Sorry I was late, but I still have this to say...

    Brethren:

    I was sad that I came home tonight and it was too late and I could not write a very important note to Mickey. So, I started this thread, that, if I would be a mod, I would just close after I wrote this:

    Mickey, to compare the issue of the Canonicity of James and DENYING THAT JESUS IS GOD, and make them equivalently grave, or ascribe to both issues the same value is like the liberals do when they attack George Bush for Gitmo comparing him with what Hitler did in the killing concentration camps in Europe.

    These two issues are totally different and have such a different weight in seriousness that I am "scared" that you consider them of the same gravity.

    Stating that Jesus is not God is very, very grave. It is a heresy. There is no doctrine in the Bible that one is violating when denying James' Canonicity, as much as you can make a matter of opinion, no one can pinpoint anything in the Bible that says that believing the 66 books canon is ESSENTIAL TO SALVATION, but in the other hand, the saying that Jesus is not God... you make the call.

    Also, you are gravely mistaken: Luther NEVER actually recant about James in stating that JAMES IS INSPIRED. Do your research and you will see for yourself what he really recanted for. He only said that he would not consider essential for one to believe that James was or was not inspired, which is my position and many other's position here: It is called ADIAPHORA. Luther preached on James as a "moral" book a few times in His ministry, but NEVER ascribed to James the level of an APOSTOLIC UNIVERSAL EPISTLE. Again, renew your research. So, the forum about James is still on; some have made up their minds and some have not. Praise God for His liberty!

    In the issue of the Deity of Jesus, however, which was what was being debated in the Unitarian X Trinitarian thread, if one has not made up his mind yet, he has not yet made up his mind as to his salvation.

    Mary

    As for "fellowship" or not, the Apostolic command is NOT whether one is elect or not: Paul tells us, after a rebuke, not to fellowship with a rebellious man. The word for rebellious is "heretic". Im am not questioning Bryan's election or reprobation because I, for one, do not carry an electometer, and I have not seen God issuing one to anyone. Also, I don't have engraved in my forehead "ELECT" neither, I hope, has Byran's forehead. The issue here is ERROR. No gray area.

    All:
    I believe I am repeating myself and repeating what others have said here, but "love" is not a mushy feeling devoid of responsibilities. If I see a man going into the cliff's edge and is about to fall, and I love him and don't wish for him to die, I will not think twice in SHOUTING at that man to stop and back up, even if SHOUTING at him hurts him. I will deal with his hurt later. So, when I say that Bryan's arguments are "folly", I don't feel guilty at all. If I say that he is under some temporary "insanity", either because of some medicine, middle age crisis, un-diagnosed bipolar disease, or anything like that, and I don't know if he is or not, he may be going through a period of temporary insanity, incapable of interpreting texts that, before, he had no problems with them.

    The alternative to sharp rebuke and severance of the fellowship, hopefully temporary, and procede to "mending the nets", which is the meaning of "restore" in the Bible, again, the alternative to this is ENABLE. I am not an enabler of anyone who is in error.

    We all have errors one time or another; I wish someone shoots me, I mean, shoots me with one of those 50 cal sniper riffles that I handled the other day in a gun show, and that the bullet hits the center of my heart and they shoot me another in the brains BEFORE I would say that JESUS IS NOT GOD!

    I have vented; I have let it out of my chest! I love Bryan, don't promise to pray for him, I already said what I had to say about the place his thinking may lead someone, so, I just wanted to say this here.

    You may close this thread now.

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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    Re: Sorry I was late, but I still have this to say...

    I have been very busy this week and have not been on the forum much and I just wanted to answer Bryan's accusations that I was personally judging him to be a reprobate--which is not the case. As Milt says, none of us has an electometer, but we do have the testimony of the Scriptures. As Christ said:

    Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    I let the Scriptures be the judge. When Byran maintains the Jesus is not God, this verse may be referenced:

    Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

    Speaking against Christ is one thing, but speaking against the Holy Spirit is quite another. I will clarify what I said in my only post in this thread:

    IF Bryan truly believes that Jesus is not God AND is convicted in his heart that this belief is attested to as truth by the Holy Spirit (and only Bryan knows this for sure), THEN in my mind this illustrates a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

    Now, my understanding could be wrong about what constitutes a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and I will accept correction on this issue, but this is my current conviction. Additionally, I do not know Byran's heart and do not know if what he truly believes DOES align with what I have stated above.

    In conclusion, I do not and have not judged Byran's eternal status, I have only measured my understanding of his words against the Scriptures and posted my conclusion. Let the word judge.....

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