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Thread: The Angels in 2 Pet 2:4

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    Question The Angels in 2 Pet 2:4

    2 Pet 2:4, (KJV), For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


    Bob, do you know who these angels are? Are they demons? This seems to imply a "fall" of angels. Please advise.. Thanks!

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    This is a hotly debated issue and I'm in the middle of writing a paper right now on 'Debunking the 'Great Satan' Myth. I can give you my own conviction but the support for it is too long and involved to state it all right now.

    1. This has to do with the same debate over Genesis 6:1-5 that has been ongoing for centuries, "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." I do not deny that this is a difficult scripture to interpret.

    2. The passage from Jude the brother of Jesus (1:6) is parallel to the same issue: "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

    3. Most of historic churchmen interpret the Genesis expression 'sons of God' as the physical line of Seth, which goes against every other use of the expression in the Old Testament. The sons of God are the Elohim, 'gods', which refer to angels God has created in every OT passage. The reason the Hebrew OT refers to God as 'Elohim' (plural) is because it is affirming He is the only TRUE God and is ONE, as opposed to the notion of plural gods--though the Hebrew Elohim is plural.

    4. There is no need to view the Genesis 6 passage as demonic creatures becoming incarnate in human bodies, which is the interpretation that historic churchmen rebel against. If the OT Hebrew demonology is understood, it is referring to angels watching over the Earth that first rebelled against God ('the angels that 'sinned') when they wanted to inhabit the souls of men and experience the pleasure along with human males of taking all these beautiful human wives and engaging in pleasure with them. In all of this there are still two independent souls sinning (demon and human), not one. But both sin together as 'partners in crime' and have the same pleasure in their sin. So when these demons inhabited human males and went in to the women referred to, they rebelled against God by leaving their appointed habitation (watching over the Earth and protecting mankind) and instead decided to indulge in carnal human evil

    5. At the flood, both mankind and the demons inhabiting men were destroyed together. The spirits of the demons were cast into Tarturus (translated hell and meaning GLOOM--a gloomy place) awaiting final judgment. When Peter mentions (1 Peter 3) that Christ went and preached to the 'spirits in prison' after His resurrection, this means a preaching of sure and certain eternal doom to these angels that sinned before the flood by inhabiting human males to experience the pleasures of human sin (as separate souls).

    I know some will consider this interpretation as ridiculous, of course.

    Thanks, --Bro. Bob

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    Oh wow! Thanks for the quick answer! Did you just write that up or pull it from your notes? Not a bad first start to our new forum home. Thanks! - I'll give you a call sometime and I'm gonna write up a guide on how to edit and add articles here.... It's late here - off to bed... - B.

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    Thanks Brandan. At one point long ago I believed the pre-flood demons actually incarnated into human bodies based on these passages, since the language might imply that. But I have since matured and believe it was an ability to share pleasure with the human souls inhabited. There is a whole lot of OT evidence that human and spirit principalities and powers were totally united in mind and purpose. I think what we have here is the same concept of the post-flood demons in the Hebrew perspective (Deut. 32:8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.) "Israel"--the last word in this passage from the Hebrew Masoretic text is a gross mistranslation. I will supply the evidence in my coming paper. It is the children of GOD--elohim that is referred to--in all of the Dead Sea Sroll manuscripts (the oldest) and the Septuagint. The reference is to God scattering the peoples of Nimrod's Bablylon into all the parts of the Earth and appointed the principalities and powers over them, including Baal (Beelzebub), Allah, and Pele. But this was POST flood, very important!

    The important thing to remember here is that the 'Princes" in OT teaching (especially Daniel) are simply a human ruler and a territorial demon acting together.

    Bro. Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandan View Post
    2 Pet 2:4, (KJV), For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


    Bob, do you know who these angels are? Are they demons? This seems to imply a "fall" of angels. Please advise.. Thanks!
    Oddly enough this is something I've been looking at in depth for the past year.

    I think the key to understanding who (and what) these angels are require more than a cursory overview of isolated passages of modern bibles (a seriously poor habit ingrained into us in an almost cult-like fashion.) We need to begin by correcting our misunderstandings first. "Angels" are not a divine species, like a cherub or seraph. An angel is a title, an office - a 'function'. Think of the ' Angel of the LORD' as an example. Surely the messenger of YHWH isn't a distinct divine species.

    As Christians, we've been sorely hobbled by our myopic view of the historical contexts through which we view Scripture. We need to understand these passages in accordance with the word-view in which they were written, by who and to whom they were written - and it isn't Augustine, the Reformation or Evangelicalism.

    To date, some of the best peer-reviewed scholarship available references an Ancient Near East supernatural world-view as necessary to get our heads around the points being made by both Peter & Jude - who are borrowing from 1st Enoch - which, in turn, seems to be a polemic against the antediluvian demigods (The Apkallu) of contemporary Mesopotamian literature.

    An excellent starting point would be Super Natural by Michael Heiser, or the more academic version of that book titled Unseen Realm (grab one of them on Audible if you can). He also has a plethora of content on YouTube as well. Although I personally don't subscribe to Mike's views on a lot of issues, his work on these particular issues are highly important and well respected in academia.

    I'm limited to the file sizes I can upload here, but I'll give a couple of names of PDFs people can read if they're interested;

    1) THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE ‘SONS OF GOD’ EPISODE (GENESIS 6.1-4) IN THE CONTEXT OF THE ‘PRIMAEVAL HISTORY’ (GENESIS 1–11)*
    David J.A. Clines

    2) On the Origin of Watchers: A Comparative Study of the Antediluvian Wisdom in Mesopotamian and Jewish Traditions - Amar Annus

    3) The Divine Council in Late Canonical and Non-Canonical Second Temple Jewish Literature - Michael Heiser.

    Blessings,

    Scott.

    *Edit*

    Here's the aforementioned files;

    Watchers.pdf
    Divine-Council.pdf
    The_Significance_of_the_Sons_of_God_Epis.pdf
    Last edited by ugly_gaunt_cow; 01-10-19 at 08:34 AM.

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    You should be able add larger pdf and zip files now... Let me know.

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    Oh, snap! I almost forgot...

    Enochian literature makes its way into Paul's writings as well... Take a moment to reflect on the following;

    (1Co 11:9-10) Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this, cause ought the woman to have power on her head *BECAUSE OF THE ANGELS*.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandan View Post
    You should be able add larger pdf and zip files now... Let me know.
    We're good to go! Thanks!

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    Bob,

    What is your take on Psalms 82:1-8? This passage, like Gen 6, seems to infer that angelic like beings have some sort of role with humans. It reads like a rebuke from God to the angels. Verse 6 and 7 are interesting.

    James

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forester07 View Post
    Bob,

    What is your take on Psalms 82:1-8? This passage, like Gen 6, seems to infer that angelic like beings have some sort of role with humans. It reads like a rebuke from God to the angels. Verse 6 and 7 are interesting.

    James
    Hey, James.

    The article on the Divine Council is about that exact issue. The council spoke of here are the Watchers of Genesis 6/ Daniel / 1st Enoch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ugly_gaunt_cow View Post
    Hey, James.

    The article on the Divine Council is about that exact issue. The council spoke of here are the Watchers of Genesis 6/ Daniel / 1st Enoch.
    I'll have to check it out. Thanks!

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    I found this in Signs of the Times compilation book:
    DEAR BROTHER BEEBE: * A friend at Booneville, Miss., requests my views through the SIGNS on I Peter 2:4, “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.” I Peter 2:4. I had rather answer him privately, but cannot make out his signature.

    As Peter is speaking of false teachers in the connection of our text, and also speaks of the destruction of the old world by the flood, and the overthrow of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, making them an example unto those who should hereafter live ungodly, and as Jude speaks of these angels in the same connection of the subject, I conclude they are false prophets, false teachers, false apostles, Satan’s ministers transformed into ministers of righteousness. In truth Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light, and it is no great thing that his ministers, his angels, should be transformed into ministers of righteousness. Their original habitation, or first estate, which they left, was not the heaven of immortal glory, for they were never there; but their habitation or estate on earth was in the same sphere of action common to all men; not above, nor below them. They left voluntarily the place of their first adobe, and sinned by assuming to be sent of God to proclaim His word, and to prophecy in His name, while they were the servants of corruption, and enemies of God and truth. The men of this world, who make no pretensions to Christianity, though sinners, have not sinned in the same manner of those who have assumed the prerogative of teachers in holy things.

    These angels, {messengers} were manifest in the antediluvian and postdiluvian periods, and under the Mosaic dispensation. In Gospel times they are distinctly manifest by assuming to be ministers of Christ under the name of “Christians,” claiming to be followers of Christ, and preachersof the everlasting Gospel. They will so far counterfeit the ministers of Christ in their appearance and course of conduct, as to deceive some of the saints for a season. Within the last fifty years they are very distinctly known as “Baptist ministers,” who, while some of them claim to preach the doctrine of the apostles as maintained by orderly Old School Baptists, they are themselves the bitterest opponents of the everlasting truth of divine revelation, and speak evil of the things which they understand not in their unmitigated persecution of the right ways of the Lord. Presumptuous are they, self willed; they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. In their presumption and vile pretensions to superiority, they will say in their heart, with ancient Babylon, typically representing Mystery Babylon, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth: “I will ascend into heaven; I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High God.” The prophet further says, “Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.” Isa.14:13* 15. Paul points out their character in several places, so does Peter and Jude, in a very emphatic manner. They are called dumb dogs, greedy dogs, that can never have enough; blind watchmen, wolves in sheep’s clothing, &c. In truth they are cast down to hell, delivered into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment. Awful doom! They are already reserved, in everlasting chains under darkness. They are under its dominion now. Terrible consideration! They do not cease to pervert the right way of the Lord. They work unceasingly to accomplish their purpose. It is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness that they work incessantly night and day. Chains of darkness. A strong expression of their awful condition; but it is descriptive of the “strong delusion” under which they are held. Under this “strong delusion” they have zeal of God, but not according to knowledge, because it is not according to the Scriptures. They zealously contend for Sunday Schools, and numerous other religious institutions, the work of their own hands. They as zealously oppose the doctrine of the redemption of the church by the blood of Christ, and that salvation is of the Lord, as they zealously contend for their own inventions. When Bible truth is clearly and faithfully preached by the ministers of Christ, and the deceitful works of darkness are exposed, and presented in their true light, they gnash with their teeth, and distinctly manifest the chains of darkness under which they are held. Some of them who have had a standing among us, and have turned aside unto Satan, whose servants they are, have represented us as denying the Godhead of our Lord Jesus Christ, or of any change in the new birth, and other egregious misrepresentations which it is not worth while to mention. These were spots in our feasts of charity, when they feasted with us, feeding themselves without fear; clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. Fearful description! We are witnessing these things in our time, and I trust leave the subject with an agonizing cry, Save us, O Lord, for Thy mercy’s sake.

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    I guess Beebe is using the 'messengers' translation of 'angels' which has some linguistic accuracy but I have my doubts as to the correctness of his interpretation. Will study further. --Bob

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    I think Beebe was working in with limited information here. The vast amounts of scholarship surrounding ANE cognitive frameworks are pretty much without question at this point. There's just too much evidence out there pointing to the biblical authors referencing intertestamental literature in their writings.

    If you follow the flow of Peter's thought, he's thinking superlatively - working from the less to the greater (2 Peter 2:1 - 4). Paul does the same thing when speaking about the 'gift of tongues' ie "If I speak with the tongue of men or of Angels". Ultimately, however, the thrust of the pericope in 2nd Peter is the severity of God in judgement, and the hope of the Saints in light of His justice.

    Peter's use of the word "hell" here is important. He's using a word we don't see associated with hell too many times. The word is tartaroo - "thrown to Tartarus". In Greek mythology, it was the prison of the Titans. Tartarus existed below Hades (the resting abode of departed spirits). The word Tartarus also occurs in Enochian literature. Both share similar traits, and it's not just limited to Greek mythology and ancient Jewish theology. This same idea is found Mesopotamian theology as well, where in the Epic of Erra, after the flood, Marduk banishes the Apkallu to Apzu.

    Here's a snippet from Wikipedia;

    "Tartarus occurs in the Septuagint of Job, and in Hellenistic Jewish literature from the Greek text of 1 Enoch, dated to 400–200 BC. This states that God placed the archangel Uriel "in charge of the world and of Tartarus" (20:2). Tartarus is generally understood to be the place where 200 fallen Watchers (angels) are imprisoned.[17]"

    As stated earlier, the evidence and similarities are overwhelming. I think a plain reading of the text pretty much points to non-human beings being cast into an underworld to await future judgement at the hands of the Saints. The article by Amar Annus is an excellent starting point. He lays out the foundation nesecarry to understand all the similarities invloved.

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