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Thread: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    If all who denied a limited atonement taught this I would reject it as well but they do not. But ultimately we do not have to choose between the two man-made systems of Calvinism and Arminianism. These systems are both pretty recent and Christianity existed well before either one. There is a third option in which Christ made absolute satisfaction for the sins of every person. Calvinism and Arminianism both limit the atonement in ways that the Scriptures do not. Both systems limit the value of Christ's death. The Scriptures never speak in a limiting way of the value of Christ's death. All are not given faith and so all do not receive this gift but we never read that God never gave the gift to begin with. We learn from much of Scripture that God does not function on a strict economic basis. God is often wasteful with His grace and gives us all kinds of things we don't necessarily need.

    But regardless of all of the above, the situation I presented is one in which the person trusts entirely upon the work of Christ for their salvation so it does not follow that the person is denying the absolute satisfaction of Christ for their sins. If the person were trusting in some decision or work of their own for their salvation then that person would have reason to fear but there is no Scriptural passage addressed against those who believe that the atonement was for every person and plenty written against those who would limit the atonement in some way--Jesus conversation with Nicodemous ended with Jesus correcting Nicodemous who thought that the Messiah was only for the Jewish people.

    So since the premise is false that all those who deny the limited atonement deny the absolute satisfaction of Christ, the conclusion you reach is also incorrect.
    W.B.:

    This was Brandan's quote and not Bob!

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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by WDJD
    OK Lets go back to the beginning and see where I may have gone wrong.

    Do you agree or disagree with the following two statements

    One must believe in the Jesus found in the bible to be saved.

    The Jesus one believes in must be found in the bible for that person to be saved.
    I disagree with the statements because they turn our right belief into the condition upon which we are saved. We are saved solely upon the basis of the work of Christ. Faith is not a condition that we fulfill. Christ-crucified is the sole grounds of our justification. Faith, which itself is a gift of God, is the instrument through which we receive that salvation but we should never speak of anything that we believe or our own understanding of the Scriptures as being the grounds of our salvation.

    But even if I were to agree with the statements above, in fact even if I were to agree with all the explicitly mentioned premises, your conclusion does not logically follow from the premises and so it is an invalid argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by WDJD
    The problem for you is this statement must be against your position since unless you believe all people are saved, the fact that you say Jesus died to save all people, you are limiting his death ( and work he did on the cross ) being applied only to those that are actually are saved.
    Reconciliation was still objectively accomplished for all, there is no limit to what Christ's death actually accomplished. It is of infinite worth and value. If I walk by a starving person and provide them a great banquet and set it up right in front of them and sit them on a chair but they just say that they are not hungry, I have still objectively given them food but they will not admit that they are hungry. Spiritually speaking the ability to acknowledge our own starvation and to start digging in is a gift of God.

    When the woman who was hemorrhaging touched Jesus He said that He knew that power went out from Him and told the woman that she received salvation through faith in His power. Jesus' power was always objectively there. There would have been no deficiency in the power of Jesus if the woman had never touched the tassel of His garment.

    When Jesus preached the "Good News" He still called it the Good News when speaking with unbelievers. He did not turn to certain groups and refer to the Bad News of the kingdom. Because obejectively it is Good News in and of itself but many do not believe.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    I disagree with the statements because they turn our right belief into the condition upon which we are saved. We are saved solely upon the basis of the work of Christ. Faith is not a condition that we fulfill. Christ-crucified is the sole grounds of our justification. Faith, which itself is a gift of God, is the instrument through which we receive that salvation but we should never speak of anything that we believe or our own understanding of the Scriptures as being the grounds of our salvation.

    But even if I were to agree with the statements above, in fact even if I were to agree with all the explicitly mentioned premises, your conclusion does not logically follow from the premises and so it is an invalid argument.



    Reconciliation was still objectively accomplished for all, there is no limit to what Christ's death actually accomplished. It is of infinite worth and value. If I walk by a starving person and provide them a great banquet and set it up right in front of them and sit them on a chair but they just say that they are not hungry, I have still objectively given them food but they will not admit that they are hungry. Spiritually speaking the ability to acknowledge our own starvation and to start digging in is a gift of God.

    When the woman who was hemorrhaging touched Jesus He said that He knew that power went out from Him and told the woman that she received salvation through faith in His power. Jesus' power was always objectively there. There would have been no deficiency in the power of Jesus if the woman had never touched the tassel of His garment.

    When Jesus preached the "Good News" He still called it the Good News when speaking with unbelievers. He did not turn to certain groups and refer to the Bad News of the kingdom. Because obejectively it is Good News in and of itself but many do not believe.
    A great post, Wildboar! We think alike on these issues!

    Your theology on these points is sound and biblical and I enjoyed the illustrations you used; they were rich and memorable.

    Cheers, In Christ Craig
    I believe I am ETERNALLY SECURE based on the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST! My faith is belief In Christ
    apart from works (Romans 4:5).

    "...for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith. Who is it that conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildboar
    Reconciliation was still objectively accomplished for all, there is no limit to what Christ's death actually accomplished. It is of infinite worth and value.
    I agree. Christ's death is of infinite worth and value. If God chose to, Christ's death could atone for an infinite amount of people. However, God did not choose to apply Christ's Death to everyone. Otherwise all would be elect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildboar
    If I walk by a starving person and provide them a great banquet and set it up right in front of them and sit them on a chair but they just say that they are not hungry, I have still objectively given them food but they will not admit that they are hungry. Spiritually speaking the ability to acknowledge our own starvation and to start digging in is a gift of God.
    This example is doublespeak. You say you have given them food but that they can't acknowledge their need for the food because the knowledge is a gift of God. How then is the food given if they can't partake. The food in this example is limited because God has not chosen them to understand. Same thing with the atonement. It is not applied to the non-elect even though it has the power and efficacy to save them.

    Limited atonement or particular redemption is quite simple to understand. All it means is that Christ's death only atones for those He has chosen. The elect alone recieve it's application.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildboar
    When the woman who was hemorrhaging touched Jesus He said that He knew that power went out from Him and told the woman that she received salvation through faith in His power. Jesus' power was always objectively there. There would have been no deficiency in the power of Jesus if the woman had never touched the tassel of His garment.
    Who here has said that there is a deficiency in the power of the atonement? Limited Atonement speaks only to it's application. It is applied to the elect and that's it. Not a hard concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildboar
    When Jesus preached the "Good News" He still called it the Good News when speaking with unbelievers. He did not turn to certain groups and refer to the Bad News of the kingdom. Because obejectively it is Good News in and of itself but many do not believe.
    How does this even relate? Of course the news was good. Good for the elect. The non-elect didn't even understand what Jesus was saying so to them it was foolishness. The reprobate didn't see this as bad news.

    Every time I've heard Lutherans discuss limited atonement they alway get stuck on the worth and power of the atonement when that is not what limited atonement is speaking about. APPLICATION!!!!

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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill View Post
    One does not have to confess Limited Atonement to be a regenerate person..

    However a person when presented with the Limited Atonement doctrine denies it and embraces Universal atonement and calls Limited Atonement a false doctrine - that person clearly does not believe the Gospel.
    I agree. Also I may add, one must be regenerated to ultimitely confess particular redemption.

    Nicholas
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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Forester07 View Post
    Every time I've heard Lutherans discuss limited atonement they alway get stuck on the worth and power of the atonement when that is not what limited atonement is speaking about. APPLICATION!!!!
    Jimmy, I agree with all your post. However I wanted to highlight this section. All who have been around this forum for a while know that Charles always changes the context and premise of the argument, along with attempting to create strawmen. In this case "the infinite worth and power of the atonement", in which none of us would deny. By doing this, Charles is attempting to misrepresent what particular redemption teaches, and to defeat particular redemption, through fraud and deception. Many have spoken and written to me about Charles tactics before, so Charles, if you read this post, don't play the Inquisition Card here! If this forum was in fact a true "which hunt" or "inquisition" (as you have falsely accused us before,) you along with Bryan would be the first to be burned at the stake. Bryan for his denial of the Trinity, and you for teaching a false Gospel.

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by WDJD View Post
    What is the false premise?
    The false premise is implied conditionalism if "to be saved" is understood as justification of the sinner before God: "They also believe you must believe in the Jesus found in the bible in order to be saved." Jesus has not saved us but we must save ourselves through faith in faith.

    "This creates a large theological problem." Yes, but the problem is not Christological but soteriological. They have not denied the Trinity but they have denied sola fide.

    If "to be saved" is understood as glorification of the sinner by God, then no Christological or soteriological problem exists. In heaven, all believers will have a correct understanding of atonement.

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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Milt
    W.B.:

    This was Brandan's quote and not Bob!

    Thanks!

    Milt
    Thanks for the correction. I knew who typed it but for some reason I typed the other name.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    I have chosen not to respond to the other posts above. Some are worth discussing, others are not. Defending myself and my own reputation isn't very interesting to me and certainly outside of the scope of this discussion. Whether I am a reprobate or elect or the stuff the stuff that grows in the back of your refrigerator really makes no difference. Insofar as the limited atonement vs. universal atonement goes it is also irrelevant to the discussion because the question is not about a limited vs. an unlimited atonement but whether or not people who do believe in a limited atonement are themselves damned because they believe that others who believe in a universal atonement will be saved. The Trinity is not even really the concern of this thread. I highly doubt that WDJD would ever spend time with anyone discussing Trinitarian doctrine or posting on boards trying to defend the Trinity. The Trinity is being used as a tool.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    ...or the stuff the stuff that grows in the back of your refrigerator...
    I wonder if that would be good on toast?
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlyfavored View Post
    I wonder if that would be good on toast?
    LOL Nice thought ... Maybe even find a cure for something in the fridge stuff.

    This thread is very strange.
    It is what it is

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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    I wonder if that would be good on toast?


    It is, I had it this morning.
    Col 2:9, (NASB), For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    Chuck,
    So you donít believe ďThe Jesus one believes in must be found in the bible for that person to be savedĒ.
    That will make the Mormons and JWís and the next Jim Jones or other future cult leaders very happy to hear.
    I am not sure whether you think saved people donít believe at all or the subject of oneís belief does not have the be in the Jesus found in the bible.
    Maybe it is a lack of understanding how God saves someone that is your problem.
    All people that the Father gave to Son are regenerated by Godís power some time before they die. They are then given the gift of saving faith which causes them to believe in the Jesus found in the bible. Thus all saved people believe in the Jesus found in the bible, there are no exceptions.
    So my premise has not been proven to be false.
    For The Truth Shall Set You Free

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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by gerhard View Post
    The false premise is implied conditionalism if "to be saved" is understood as justification of the sinner before God: "They also believe you must believe in the Jesus found in the bible in order to be saved." Jesus has not saved us but we must save ourselves through faith in faith.



    "This creates a large theological problem." Yes, but the problem is not Christological but soteriological. They have not denied the Trinity but they have denied sola fide.

    Who is the they?

    If "to be saved" is understood as glorification of the sinner by God, then no Christological or soteriological problem exists. In heaven, all believers will have a correct understanding of atonement.
    There might be a little misunderstanding here. There is no conditionalism.
    We are saved by Grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone. The faith we have is a gift from God. When he regenerates us he gives us the gift of saving faith which causes us to believe in the Jesus found in the bible.

    The question is does one get into heaven, whose faith is found in someone other than the Jesus found in the bible? Or must the faith God has given us be in the Jesus found in the bible and him alone?

    Who is the "they" you refer to when you said:
    They have not denied the Trinity but they have denied sola fide.
    For The Truth Shall Set You Free

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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by WDJD
    Chuck,
    So you donít believe ďThe Jesus one believes in must be found in the bible for that person to be savedĒ.

    That will make the Mormons and JWís and the next Jim Jones or other future cult leaders very happy to hear.
    I am not sure whether you think saved people donít believe at all or the subject of oneís belief does not have the be in the Jesus found in the bible.
    Maybe it is a lack of understanding how God saves someone that is your problem.
    All people that the Father gave to Son are regenerated by Godís power some time before they die. They are then given the gift of saving faith which causes them to believe in the Jesus found in the bible. Thus all saved people believe in the Jesus found in the bible, there are no exceptions.
    So my premise has not been proven to be false.



    I would say that they are regenerated and given faith and they believe into the historical Jesus that the Scriptures bear witness to. But notice that my statement is a declarative statement. It does not contain the conditional language of your statement, my statement does not ground the person's salvation upon their belief (which in fact is what most modern evangelicals teach and semi-Pelagians).

    Also, I believe the Scriptures because they bear witness to Christ. I do not believe in Christ because the Scriptures tell me about Him.

    But regardless, why do you limit this discussion to the limited atonement/universal atonement issue? Doesn't this also apply to eschatology and a whole host of other issues? Wouldn't they also create multiple Jesuses if your premises are true?
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    Chuck,
    You wrote:
    But regardless, why do you limit this discussion to the limited atonement/universal atonement issue? Doesn't this also apply to eschatology and a whole host of other issues? Wouldn't they also create multiple Jesuses if your premises are true?
    ME
    No the premise involves what Jesus did on the cross involving soteriology.
    For example we could lay out the same premise involving whether the Jesus found in bible can save people without any contribution of any kind by the sinner or the Jesus of the bible did his share but it was not enough to save on its own but the sinner must to something (anything) before they can be regenerated.
    For The Truth Shall Set You Free

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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by WDJD View Post
    =“The Jesus one believes in must be found in the bible for that person to be saved”.
    That would be "doctrinal regeneration".

    Someone will believe in the Jesus of the Bible WHEN they are saved because it is only that Jesus which reveals Himself to men.

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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    God reveals Himself to people through DOCTRINE. I'm quite sick of the doctrinal regeneration debate. It is through sound doctrine - GOSPEL Doctrine that God regenerates a person. Regeneration is an epistemological process - it's supernatural - but it's also epistemological in the sense that regneration IS the renewing of the mind by the Holy Spirit.

    There are different stages of regeneration - one is where a young believer gets some milk and rejoices because it tastes great. Later on he gets ahold of some meat and he learns and loves digesting it. Those that won't eat meat got spoiled milk! We can call that the boogey word of "doctrinal regeneration" if you like, but let's face it - it's only those who believe the Gospel are those who are regenerated.
    This is my signature.

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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill View Post
    God reveals Himself to people through DOCTRINE. I'm quite sick of the doctrinal regeneration debate. It is through sound doctrine - GOSPEL Doctrine that God regenerates a person. Regeneration is an epistemological process - it's supernatural - but it's also epistemological in the sense that regneration IS the renewing of the mind by the Holy Spirit.

    There are different stages of regeneration - one is where a young believer gets some milk and rejoices because it tastes great. Later on he gets ahold of some meat and he learns and loves digesting it. Those that won't eat meat got spoiled milk! We can call that the boogey word of "doctrinal regeneration" if you like, but let's face it - it's only those who believe the Gospel are those who are regenerated.
    I agree with what you are saying about "doctrinal regeneration". Doctrine seems to be a dirty word these days, but doctrine is simply the TEACHING of God. Getting this right is something we are always converting to as we learn of Jesus through the Word, prayer and living life.

    We should always be seeking doctrinal regeneration if there are any false teachings we are holding to.

    We only want pure doctrine here, not high "church" gobbledygook!

    Lord direct our paths. Amen!

    Blessings,

    Kevin.

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    Re: Why Many Calvinists Don't Believe In The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugly_Gaunt_Cow View Post
    That would be "doctrinal regeneration".

    Someone will believe in the Jesus of the Bible WHEN they are saved because it is only that Jesus which reveals Himself to men.
    It is not doctrinal regeneration its is a statement of fact.

    Your statement answers the question why it is a true statement of fact.

    The Jesus one believes in must be found in the bible to be saved is a true statement because that is the only Jesus that reveals himself to saved people.
    For The Truth Shall Set You Free

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