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Thread: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the good

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    The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the good

    I wish to obtain a rigorous and exacting discussion on whether the concept that God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the good is explicitly taught in the Bible.

    Please note that this is NOT a discussion about whether God is Sovereign and controls all things. I have demonstrated my own position STRONGLY and in the AFFIRMATIVE to these things in the thread 'Why many Calvinists don't believe in the Trinity.'

    This is a very SPECIFIC and DETAILED aspect of God's Sovereignty where equally God-fearing people CAN and DO differ. Does the Bible specifically, explicitly and unambiguously present God as THE ACTIVE PROXIMATE CAUSE OF EVIL and as THE ACTIVE PROXIMATE HINDERER OF THE GOOD?

    It is my opinion that the Bible does not give direct support to these concepts and - as you know - this lies at the SOURCE of my differences with the official position adopted by Pnet.

    Greg (Highly Favoured) in Post 123 of the thread 'Why many Calvinists don't believe in the Trinity' posed the question to me 'Can we DISCUSS these things?' Yes, Greg I would very much like to do this. I respect you and Pnet although I make no bones about it that we are "poles apart" on these particular issues.

    However, I envisage that there will be a thorough citing and referencing of the scriptures themselves to determine to what extent the title of this thread is true or false. I look forward to an edifying and helpful discussion.

    God bless you, In Christ
    I believe I am ETERNALLY SECURE based on the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST! My faith is belief In Christ
    apart from works (Romans 4:5).

    "...for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith. Who is it that conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
    (1 John 5:4-5 NRSV)

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Whatever happens God caused. He does not hinder anything from happening because nothing happens unless He causes it.


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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey View Post
    Whatever happens God caused. He does not hinder anything from happening because nothing happens unless He causes it.
    This is a statement that is very bold and daring. Is it, however, the final, absolute and unqualified truth on this matter. I, for one, don't think so - not by a long shot!

    Does God DIRECTLY cause horrific, malicious and sadistic crimes? Does God delight and take pleasure in the fact that He DIRECTLY caused the mass murder of innocent people in a McDonalds Hamburger Bar? Does God DIRECTLY plan and cause sordid sexual crimes, mass rapes, starvation and hunger of millions of people, terrorist attacks among countless others.

    My answer is 'NO'! God does NOT DIRECTLY CAUSE these things although I DO believe He is Sovereign over them and in this sense fulfil His plan and purposes.

    If your answer is 'YES' then I would ask:

    HOW does God do this? Where is the proof of this in the Bible?

    Cheers, In Christ Craig
    I believe I am ETERNALLY SECURE based on the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST! My faith is belief In Christ
    apart from works (Romans 4:5).

    "...for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith. Who is it that conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
    (1 John 5:4-5 NRSV)

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig kennedy View Post
    This is a statement that is very bold and daring. Is it, however, the final, absolute and unqualified truth on this matter.
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig kennedy View Post
    Does God DIRECTLY cause horrific, malicious and sadistic crimes?
    Yes. A great example: God caused the horrific, malicious and sadistic bloody murder of His Son and delighted in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig kennedy View Post
    Does God delight and take pleasure in the fact that He DIRECTLY caused the mass murder of innocent people in a McDonalds Hamburger Bar?
    Innocent? We're they any less sinful then the mass amount of people killed in the flood? Also, if they were believers then death is gain right? If they were not believers then their murder and pain suffered in the flesh in nothing compared to what follows. Nevertheless, no one is innocent and God indeed delights in the accomplishment of His will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig kennedy View Post
    Does God DIRECTLY plan and cause sordid sexual crimes, mass rapes, starvation and hunger of millions of people, terrorist attacks among countless others.
    Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes and countless other Yeses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig kennedy View Post
    My answer is 'NO'!
    Why though? Is it just that you don't know of any scriptures that state that God causes all things, or is it that you have seen the scriptures those of us use and just disagree that they support our conclusions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Craig kennedy View Post
    God does NOT DIRECTLY CAUSE these things although I DO believe He is Sovereign over them and in this sense fulfil His plan and purposes.
    What do you mean by "Sovereign over them"? Also how can something fulill God's "plan and purposes" if He didn't plan or purpose it?

    Are you saying that God plans and purposes mass rapes, sex crimes, murders, starvation and all of the other stuff you don't think God directly causes?



    Quote Originally Posted by Craig kennedy View Post
    If your answer is 'YES' then I would ask:

    HOW does God do this?
    He speaks all things into existance. He decrees it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig kennedy View Post
    Where is the proof of this in the Bible?
    Before I go and post a mass amount of scripture let me ask you a question about this question.

    Have you read the many threads we have on this subject?


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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey View Post
    Before I go and post a mass amount of scripture let me ask you a question about this question.

    Have you read the many threads we have on this subject?
    Good post Mike.

    Craig I posted this from the other thread where I think your questions stem from.
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlyfavored View Post
    Actually Craig, I think we all do understand your perspective. We did the first time you left and the second. Nothing has changed, we get it. We just do not embrace a view of a god that is subservient in any way to his creation.

    It's like I said, nothing's changed.

    Craig, if God has predetermined all things, how does He allow or not allow certain things?

    Also, if:Then how did it get there? Where did evil come from? Do you honestly believe that all things were not pre determined in the mind of God for His glory??

    Let's explore those questions I asked and see if that is the case.
    Please answer these questions before we move on with this thread.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Kennedy
    Does God DIRECTLY cause horrific, malicious and sadistic crimes?
    Yes. He does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig Kennedy

    Where is the proof of this in the Bible?
    You must know the many scriptures that show this view? I think many threads go into vast detail about all this. Look them up. Who should we talk about first. Joseph, Pharaoh, Samson, Saul, David, Job, the prophets, Jesus? I could list scriptures about each of these that show that God directly causes evil. I will just point out one quick scripture, as an example, for you to deal with.

    After David had sinned with Uriah's wife, the prophet Nathan said to David the following:

    2 Sam 12:11-12 Thus says the LORD, 'Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house. And I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel and before the sun.'"

    God did all this!!! To continue:

    2 Sam 12:15-18 "Then Nathan went to his house. And the LORD afflicted the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and he became sick. David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. On the seventh day the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, "Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us. How then can we say to him the child is dead? He may do himself some harm."

    God killed an "innocent" child. A baby!!!! How do you explain this? This is just one example of many many possible ones to talk about.

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey View Post
    Yes.



    Yes. A great example: God caused the horrific, malicious and sadistic bloody murder of His Son and delighted in it.



    Innocent? We're they any less sinful then the mass amount of people killed in the flood? Also, if they were believers then death is gain right? If they were not believers then their murder and pain suffered in the flesh in nothing compared to what follows. Nevertheless, no one is innocent and God indeed delights in the accomplishment of His will.



    Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes and countless other Yeses.



    Why though? Is it just that you don't know of any scriptures that state that God causes all things, or is it that you have seen the scriptures those of us use and just disagree that they support our conclusions.




    What do you mean by "Sovereign over them"? Also how can something fulill God's "plan and purposes" if He didn't plan or purpose it?

    Are you saying that God plans and purposes mass rapes, sex crimes, murders, starvation and all of the other stuff you don't think God directly causes?





    He speaks all things into existance. He decrees it.



    Before I go and post a mass amount of scripture let me ask you a question about this question.

    Have you read the many threads we have on this subject?
    Hi Mickey,

    I appreciate that you have taken the time and trouble to respond to my questions.

    You have answered my questions, of course, with SHORT RESPONSES from your own theological viewpoint. This does not mean, ipso facto, that they are in and of themselves necessarily wrong but they DO invite many more questions.

    You ask me an excellent question and I commend you for raising it. You inquire:

    "Is it just that you don't know of any scriptures that state that God causes all things, or is it that you have seen the scriptures those of us use and just disagree that they support our conclusions."

    My honest answer to you is A BIT OF BOTH. I struggle from my own reading of the scriptures to see this concept underlined and unambiguously DECLARED; I also struggle when I have read past threads on this site - yes, I have read them - to see that the scriptures you use to support this concept do, in actual fact, bear that specific meaning which you claim.

    I would like to DISCUSS this further with you and I would be most grateful if you could present me with scriptures that support your conclusion. It would be helpful if you don't list too many in any one post so that we can realistically look at and go over them, in an honest fashion.

    I thank you for your willingness to DIALOGUE. May God bless you!

    Cheers, In Christ Craig
    I believe I am ETERNALLY SECURE based on the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST! My faith is belief In Christ
    apart from works (Romans 4:5).

    "...for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith. Who is it that conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
    (1 John 5:4-5 NRSV)

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Craig: Please note that this is NOT a discussion about whether God is Sovereign and controls all things.

    For many of us this issue cannot be separated from your other question. If God does not cause the exact course of evil (in terms of wicked motives, thoughts, plans, and actions) He cannot be said to control it. God caused Judas to want to betray Christ, think about and plan to betray Christ in a particular manner, and commit specific acts to carry out the betrayal. So it is with all sin and evil in all history. One evil thought, plan, and action left to random 'chance' is the potential undoing of what God purposes to accomplish for millenniums beyond that point. The evil performed by men is involved in carrying out God's purposes of Grace throughout history.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig kennedy View Post
    I would like to DISCUSS this further with you and I would be most grateful if you could present me with scriptures that support your conclusion. It would be helpful if you don't list too many in any one post so that we can realistically look at and go over them, in an honest fashion.
    Before we go any further I suggest that Greg's request be honored since he is a Mod.

    Also so I can better understand what your thinking is can you answer my questions as well, I don't mind short answers.

    If you don't mind going about in this order then we can discuss Jimmy's scripture so we don't disrespect his contribution to the discussion.


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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Forester07 View Post
    Yes. He does.



    You must know the many scriptures that show this view? I think many threads go into vast detail about all this. Look them up. Who should we talk about first. Joseph, Pharaoh, Samson, Saul, David, Job, the prophets, Jesus? I could list scriptures about each of these that show that God directly causes evil. I will just point out one quick scripture, as an example, for you to deal with.

    After David had sinned with Uriah's wife, the prophet Nathan said to David the following:

    2 Sam 12:11-12 Thus says the LORD, 'Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house. And I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel and before the sun.'"

    God did all this!!! To continue:

    2 Sam 12:15-18 "Then Nathan went to his house. And the LORD afflicted the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and he became sick. David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. On the seventh day the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, "Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us. How then can we say to him the child is dead? He may do himself some harm."

    God killed an "innocent" child. A baby!!!! How do you explain this? This is just one example of many many possible ones to talk about.
    Hi Jimmy,

    Thanks for those references and they are a SOLEMN reminder of what we are investigating here.

    At this time, I do NOT claim to be able to answer your postulation. All I will say is that I feel mighty uncomfortable with this APPARENT phenomena. I will wait on the Lord and ask Him to teach me about His ways and will with regard to these verses.

    These verses, in my estimation, POSE MASSIVE PROBLEMS for any honest exegete.

    In Christ, Craig
    I believe I am ETERNALLY SECURE based on the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST! My faith is belief In Christ
    apart from works (Romans 4:5).

    "...for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith. Who is it that conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
    (1 John 5:4-5 NRSV)

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig kennedy View Post
    I would like to DISCUSS this further with you and I would be most grateful if you could present me with scriptures that support your conclusion. It would be helpful if you don't list too many in any one post so that we can realistically look at and go over them, in an honest fashion.

    I thank you for your willingness to DIALOGUE. May God bless you!

    Cheers, In Christ Craig
    Craig, perhaps I'm reading this wrong and you're going to answer my questions, or maybe not, since when the questions about God and his absolute sovereignty are asked, you seem to wrestle with them. Then, you just end up leaving the forum, only to come back, and you participate on threads, until we get to this point with you again.

    For everyone else these three threads were the last threads Craig had posted on before leaving the last three times. Please observe the questions that were asked of him that either he couldn't or didn't want to answer. I have never believed that Craig was ever being a problem or out to stir up trouble.

    http://www.predestinarian.net/showth...?t=5348&page=1
    Please note St. Nick's questions on post #17.

    http://www.predestinarian.net/showth...5994#post55994
    It appears Craig is confused quite a lot about what he believes even though he still holds to it.

    http://www.predestinarian.net/showth...?t=3924&page=1
    Please notice Roger's questions (rlhuckle), these where excellent.

    Craig, I don't bring this up as a indictment against you or to shame you, (I hope you do answer these questions and things begin to gel this time.) but as a way to illustrate the gospel and what happens when someone is faced with it who appears to be blinded to it.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlyfavored View Post
    Good post Mike.

    Craig I posted this from the other thread where I think your questions stem from.
    Please answer these questions before we move on with this thread.
    Hi Greg,

    I am happy to answer your questions but I am afraid they will not shed much light to ADVANCE this discussion.

    I DO believe that God has, in some sense, pre-determined all things after the counsel of His own will. In this context, I think that God's pre-determination is more than 'bare permission' or simple fore-knowledge.

    However, I find your 'take' on this issue difficult to reconcile with the fact that God desires compliance to His will and commands. Divine Hatred, as I read it and understand it from the scriptures, seems to be God's detest of 'free creatures' (not free will in an Arminian sense, you will understand) who OBSTINATELY AND DELIBERATELY REJECT HIM.

    In a nutshell, it is my contention that your viewpoint DENIES any realistic understanding or appreciation of HUMAN FREEDOM AND HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY.

    These are no small matters and I am willing to discuss these things, if you want to. I do NOT claim to have all the answers. On these issues, I grope in the dark and see through a glass dimly.

    Lord, give us grace and wisdom to understand, in some measure, these things.

    In Christ, Craig
    I believe I am ETERNALLY SECURE based on the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST! My faith is belief In Christ
    apart from works (Romans 4:5).

    "...for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith. Who is it that conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
    (1 John 5:4-5 NRSV)

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey View Post
    Before we go any further I suggest that Greg's request be honored since he is a Mod.

    Also so I can better understand what your thinking is can you answer my questions as well, I don't mind short answers.

    If you don't mind going about in this order then we can discuss Jimmy's scripture so we don't disrespect his contribution to the discussion.
    Thanks Mickey,

    I have responded to Greg and to Jimmy as you will readily see.

    I am NOT claiming to have all the answers in these areas but there are, in my opinion, SERIOUS OBJECTIONS to your viewpoint.

    I DO hope that Greg and the Moderators and anyone else on this forum will take the care to listen to what I have to say; and to ATTEMPT to answer my questions as I ATTEMPT to also answer yours.

    Therefore, if you are willing to continue I am happy to DISCUSS on this basis.

    Cheers, In Christ Craig
    I believe I am ETERNALLY SECURE based on the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST! My faith is belief In Christ
    apart from works (Romans 4:5).

    "...for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith. Who is it that conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
    (1 John 5:4-5 NRSV)

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    Craig: Please note that this is NOT a discussion about whether God is Sovereign and controls all things.

    For many of us this issue cannot be separated from your other question. If God does not cause the exact course of evil (in terms of wicked motives, thoughts, plans, and actions) He cannot be said to control it. God caused Judas to want to betray Christ, think about and plan to betray Christ in a particular manner, and commit specific acts to carry out the betrayal. So it is with all sin and evil in all history. One evil thought, plan, and action left to random 'chance' is the potential undoing of what God purposes to accomplish for millenniums beyond that point. The evil performed by men is involved in carrying out God's purposes of Grace throughout history.
    Hi Bob,

    I can understand your passion and zeal for upholding God's SOVEREIGNTY and CONTROL over all things.

    What I cannot 'get my head around' is your apparent ease in lightly overlooking and dismissing the concept of human beings as RESPONSIBLE creatures under God; the concept of human beings who can apparently act independently and autonomously; the concept of human beings who DENY THE LORD WHO BOUGHT THEM.

    Are human beings mere "puppets" in your schema? Are human beings simply pre-programmed machines who are directed to fixed destinations, thoughts, feelings and actions? Is there any realistic understanding or recognition of human freedom in your theology?

    I DO need to hear your responses to these things.

    In Christ, Craig
    I believe I am ETERNALLY SECURE based on the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST! My faith is belief In Christ
    apart from works (Romans 4:5).

    "...for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith. Who is it that conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
    (1 John 5:4-5 NRSV)

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlyfavored View Post
    Craig, perhaps I'm reading this wrong and you're going to answer my questions, or maybe not, since when the questions about God and his absolute sovereignty are asked, you seem to wrestle with them. Then, you just end up leaving the forum, only to come back, and you participate on threads, until we get to this point with you again.

    For everyone else these three threads were the last threads Craig had posted on before leaving the last three times. Please observe the questions that were asked of him that either he couldn't or didn't want to answer. I have never believed that Craig was ever being a problem or out to stir up trouble.

    http://www.predestinarian.net/showth...?t=5348&page=1
    Please note St. Nick's questions on post #17.

    http://www.predestinarian.net/showth...5994#post55994
    It appears Craig is confused quite a lot about what he believes even though he still holds to it.

    http://www.predestinarian.net/showth...?t=3924&page=1
    Please notice Roger's questions (rlhuckle), these where excellent.

    Craig, I don't bring this up as a indictment against you or to shame you, (I hope you do answer these questions and things begin to gel this time.) but as a way to illustrate the gospel and what happens when someone is faced with it who appears to be blinded to it.
    Thanks Greg,

    Yes, I've only left this forum because I felt as though I had proceeded in discussion as far as my God-given wisdom and understanding would allow.

    The only reason I have come back is to genuinely seek better answers than I have at present. This is not to imply that I am persuaded of your view of ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY or HIGH GRACE PREDESTINARIAN THEOLOGY, but I have been edified by this site in an overall sense.

    I will look again at the threads you have "put up" before me.

    In Christ, Craig
    I believe I am ETERNALLY SECURE based on the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST! My faith is belief In Christ
    apart from works (Romans 4:5).

    "...for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith. Who is it that conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
    (1 John 5:4-5 NRSV)

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    First let me say that Craig I wrestled with this question when I first came to the faith I now have as well. I asked how can a loving God cause someone to rape a child? I couldn't fathom it.. I couldn't understand God being the ultimate cause of evil... He determined for it to happen for a reason, and He refrained from making it stop. God can do all He wants.. saying God doesn't cause the evil is saying He doesn't have control over it, but something else has caused it and determined for it to take place. That scares me. It scares me thinking there would be something else like the devil in control of evil in this world and God doesn't have plan to put all things together. For God to work all things together for our good He must be in control of all things which includes evil. He either causes evil to happen or He stops it.. He decides how much something will happen and how little.

    Personally I feel I have experienced this to some degree.. my sinful actions and those of others caused a horrible event in my life which I wont go into detail. A very bad event that I have often asked why did you cause this God? And sometimes I think maybe He didnt want this to happen maybe He didn't cause this. But in the end I know that to be a lie He did.. His hand was all over it. He used this horrible event for my good, He taught me things, He taught people around me things. I know it may not make FULL sense to us with finite minds but God uses bad things for a reason, God uses sin for a reason.. And in that horrible day it could have been worse but God controlled it.. He knew exactly what was going to happen and every single detail of that day, and because He had COMPLETE control over all things including sin that day, a bad day didn't end up being the worse day of my life. I rejoice that God has control over evil.. I would be scared if He didnt and I used to believe He didn't.. I used to believe that Satan was the one causing evil... I tell you I am so much more at peace knowing God is using evil for our good, that God is causing things to happen for His reasons.

    Some verses to ponder:
    Romans 8:28, (NASB), And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
    Psalm 38:4, (NASB), When he falls, he will not be hurled headlong, Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand
    Lamentations 3:31,32, (NASB), For the Lord will not reject forever, For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion
    Philippians 2:13, (NASB), for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.





    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig kennedy View Post
    Hi Bob,

    I can understand your passion and zeal for upholding God's SOVEREIGNTY and CONTROL over all things.

    What I cannot 'get my head around' is your apparent ease in lightly overlooking and dismissing the concept of human beings as RESPONSIBLE creatures under God; the concept of human beings who can apparently act independently and autonomously; the concept of human beings who DENY THE LORD WHO BOUGHT THEM.

    Are human beings mere \"puppets\" in your schema? Are human beings simply pre-programmed machines who are directed to fixed destinations, thoughts, feelings and actions? Is there any realistic understanding or recognition of human freedom in your theology?

    I DO need to hear your responses to these things.

    In Christ, Craig
    Humans do have a responsibility, we are held responsible for our sins and asked to repent of them. We are even disciplined for our sins, and yet God caused them.. and yet He disciplines us. But its all for HIs reasons, to teach us.. and at the time we did have choice not to sin.. but the end result is always what God had determined. Yet here on earth we still must experience sinning, repenting, being disciplined.. being held responsible for our actions. God has a reason for all He does.

    Those who dont accept Christ are held responsible for their decision. We make choices daily whether to sin or not, whether to go to College or not, etc. We make choices whether to accept that God is sovereign over all things or not. However, through all of that we know that God is determining it all. If someone rejects Christ their whole life it is because they are not elect, God never opened their eyes, and yet God still holds them responsible for their sins.. they are dead in their sins, and they will go to hell. And they will be punished for being murderers, gluttons, drunkards, liars, etc. However, the children of God those in His family had Christ die in their place... Christ took our place..

    A really really good article on this how God is the cause of sin and yet man is still responsible is by Vincent Cheung. Here I'll leave the link for you to read, please do read it he answers your questions so much better than I can: http://www.vincentcheung.com/library/#ARTICLES
    Its under the book The Author of Sin, you can use PDF.. then I think find the chapter on responsibility, there used to be a seperate article pulled from that book but I cant find it. There is one article in there from that book. I used to have a lot saved on my computer too because Nick Heath was very fond of Cheungs writings, I even have some of his books. Not everything is top of the line but most I agree with him on.

    Ps: I cant find the one article Im reminded of.. it must be in one of his books but he talks alot on how God being the cause of evil doesn't contradict mans responsibility
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by MCoving View Post
    First let me say that Craig I wrestled with this question when I first came to the faith I now have as well. I asked how can a loving God cause someone to rape a child? I couldn't fathom it.. I couldn't understand God being the ultimate cause of evil... He determined for it to happen for a reason, and He refrained from making it stop. God can do all He wants.. saying God doesn't cause the evil is saying He doesn't have control over it, but something else has caused it and determined for it to take place. That scares me. It scares me thinking there would be something else like the devil in control of evil in this world and God doesn't have plan to put all things together. For God to work all things together for our good He must be in control of all things which includes evil. He either causes evil to happen or He stops it.. He decides how much something will happen and how little.

    Personally I feel I have experienced this to some degree.. my sinful actions and those of others caused a horrible event in my life which I wont go into detail. A very bad event that I have often asked why did you cause this God? And sometimes I think maybe He didnt want this to happen maybe He didn't cause this. But in the end I know that to be a lie He did.. His hand was all over it. He used this horrible event for my good, He taught me things, He taught people around me things. I know it may not make FULL sense to us with finite minds but God uses bad things for a reason, God uses sin for a reason.. And in that horrible day it could have been worse but God controlled it.. He knew exactly what was going to happen and every single detail of that day, and because He had COMPLETE control over all things including sin that day, a bad day didn't end up being the worse day of my life. I rejoice that God has control over evil.. I would be scared if He didnt and I used to believe He didn't.. I used to believe that Satan was the one causing evil... I tell you I am so much more at peace knowing God is using evil for our good, that God is causing things to happen for His reasons.

    Some verses to ponder:
    Romans 8:28, (NASB), And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
    Psalm 38:4, (NASB), When he falls, he will not be hurled headlong, Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand
    Lamentations 3:31,32, (NASB), For the Lord will not reject forever, For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion
    Philippians 2:13, (NASB), for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.




    Hi Mary,

    I appreciate the authenticity of your life experience and your desire to follow Christ.

    Thanks for sharing this.

    In Christ, Craig
    I believe I am ETERNALLY SECURE based on the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST! My faith is belief In Christ
    apart from works (Romans 4:5).

    "...for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith. Who is it that conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
    (1 John 5:4-5 NRSV)

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by MCoving View Post
    Humans do have a responsibility, we are held responsible for our sins and asked to repent of them. We are even disciplined for our sins, and yet God caused them.. and yet He disciplines us. But its all for HIs reasons, to teach us.. and at the time we did have choice not to sin.. but the end result is always what God had determined. Yet here on earth we still must experience sinning, repenting, being disciplined.. being held responsible for our actions. God has a reason for all He does.

    Those who dont accept Christ are held responsible for their decision. We make choices daily whether to sin or not, whether to go to College or not, etc. We make choices whether to accept that God is sovereign over all things or not. However, through all of that we know that God is determining it all. If someone rejects Christ their whole life it is because they are not elect, God never opened their eyes, and yet God still holds them responsible for their sins.. they are dead in their sins, and they will go to hell. And they will be punished for being murderers, gluttons, drunkards, liars, etc. However, the children of God those in His family had Christ die in their place... Christ took our place..

    A really really good article on this how God is the cause of sin and yet man is still responsible is by Vincent Cheung. Here I'll leave the link for you to read, please do read it he answers your questions so much better than I can: http://www.vincentcheung.com/library/#ARTICLES
    Its under the book The Author of Sin, you can use PDF.. then I think find the chapter on responsibility, there used to be a seperate article pulled from that book but I cant find it. There is one article in there from that book. I used to have a lot saved on my computer too because Nick Heath was very fond of Cheungs writings, I even have some of his books. Not everything is top of the line but most I agree with him on.

    Ps: I cant find the one article Im reminded of.. it must be in one of his books but he talks alot on how God being the cause of evil doesn't contradict mans responsibility
    Hi Mary,

    Your post has brought back memories of Nick Heath to me! I can recall vividly Nick 'instant messaging' me as soon as I came online here at Pnet and literally peppering me with the theological articles and writings of Vincent Cheung. LOL!

    I must say, honestly, that I became very CONFUSED when reading Cheung; some things he said seemed right and true, whereas some other things seemed - at least to me - ambiguous and contradictory.

    Nevertheless, for Nick's sake and his blessed memory (we used to have some good laughs too, you know - it wasn't all serious stuff we discussed!); and for the sake of seeking more light from the Lord on this subject I will read Cheung's book 'The Author of Sin' in PDF format as you suggest.

    I DO appreciate you pointing this out to me.

    In Christ, Craig
    I believe I am ETERNALLY SECURE based on the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST! My faith is belief In Christ
    apart from works (Romans 4:5).

    "...for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith. Who is it that conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
    (1 John 5:4-5 NRSV)

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    TO GREG, MICKEY, JIMMY AND MARY...

    I must say that Mary's suggestion to read Vincent Cheung's book "The Author of Sin" (in PDF form) is proving useful already.

    This is NOT to say or imply that I accept your position in its entirety - or that I will in the future. However, it is to acknowledge that these issues are given theological investigation and treatment in this book. This factor alone raises my curiosity level and motivates me to dig and explore deeper.

    I also notice that on the site that Mary referred me to, there is much material on these themes. I acknowledge that, at this present time, I am NOT well enough immersed in this type of writing to interact fairly with it. I realise you guys have been willing to discuss and dialogue - thank you very much!

    In the light of these considerations, it may be best for all concerned to hold off this discussion until I become more cognisant of all the nuances in the debate. Please do not misunderstand me - I am not lessening in any way the substantial and serious objections I have against your view. It's just that I concede I am not well enough equipped to indulge in theological polemics on these issues with you, right now. It would be like a heavyweight boxer punching upwards into thin air! LOL!

    I am sure you will understand. Greg, thank you for your comments; you are right, I have NEVER wanted to make a nuisance of myself on this site, attack your position or cause trouble. I have only found the site useful, at times. If I ever think that I have nothing further to meaningfully contribute that is edifying, I will at that point GRACEFULLY remove myself from this site, not to bother you again.

    In the meantime I'll keep reading and studying these matters.

    God bless you, In Christ Craig
    I believe I am ETERNALLY SECURE based on the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST! My faith is belief In Christ
    apart from works (Romans 4:5).

    "...for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith. Who is it that conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
    (1 John 5:4-5 NRSV)

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