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Thread: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the good

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    Where does the Bible say that?
    Rom 3:24
    John 19:28-30
    Col 1:22
    Rom 5:9
    Isa 53:11
    Rom 5:19
    Col 1:20-22
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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by W.B,
    Reason is the devil's whore
    Where does the Bible says THAT?
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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by calvinator
    Every person that Christ died for will believe. God will make it so.
    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    Where does the Bible say that?




    Rom 3:24, (NASB), being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

    28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, "I am thirsty."29 A jar full of sour wine was standing there; so they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon a branch of hyssop and brought it up to His mouth.30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.


    Col 1:22, (NASB), yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach

    Rom 5:9, (NASB), Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

    Isa 53:11, (NASB), As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

    Rom 5:19, (NASB), For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

    and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say whether things on earth or things in heaven.21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach


    None of the passages above say that every person who Christ died for will be given faith and believe.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    To wb

    None of the passages above say that every person who Christ died for will be given faith and believe.
    I don't expect you to understand. But if the above passages teach justification by grace alone before nary the mention of faith, then faith is the inevitible blessing that will be given freely to the already justified person. Do you think there will be justified people in heaven that won't believe? Faith is a covenant blessing given to the justified person. It is a gift of love and God only loves the righteous. He does not give covenant blessings to those that He hates.
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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill
    I don't expect you to understand. But if the above passages teach justification by grace alone before nary the mention of faith, then faith is the inevitible blessing that will be given freely to the already justified person. Do you think there will be justified people in heaven that won't believe? Faith is a covenant blessing given to the justified person. It is a gift of love and God only loves the righteous. He does not give covenant blessings to those that He hates.
    I understand what you are saying but the verse above do not teach what you are teaching. You are starting with the presupposition that if a person is justified objectively then God will give them faith. But I don't believe the Scriptures actually teach this so posting verses which simply speak of objective justification but don't say that God gives them all faith doesn't prove anything against my position or for your position. I do not believe that unbelievers will be in heaven but that does not diminish or lessen the objective justification that Christ accomplished for the unbeliever. There is no Scriptural statement where God says, "I only love the righteous." This is another presupposition imposed upon Scripture. God so loved the world. There are absolutely no righteous people in heaven (except for Christ). All the righteous people are in hell. The wicked and unrighteous sinners are all in heaven.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildboar
    There is no Scriptural statement where God says, "I only love the righteous." This is another presupposition imposed upon Scripture.
    Yes, you will not find those exact words said by God but the concept is clearly taught.

    Psa 11:4-7 The LORD is in his holy temple; the LORD's throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test the children of man. The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence. Let him rain coals on the wicked; fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup. For the LORD is righteous; he loves righteous deeds; the upright shall behold his face.

    The righteous are loved and the wicked are hated. Yet there are none righteous except Christ, you are correct. So If someone has been justified by Christ through His Death then they are considered as righteous by God and are loved. Not because of their own righteousness but because of Christ's Righteousness imputed to them. If someone doesn't have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them then they are counted among the wicked.

    So Chuck, what you are saying is that there are some people in Hell that have Christ's Righteousness imputed to them? That doesn't make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildboar
    but that does not diminish or lessen the objective justification that Christ accomplished for the unbeliever.


    What are you saying here? What did Christ accomplish for the unbeliever? They didn't recieve Christ's Righteousness, Correct? So what justification are you talking about. Do you hold to two different justifications? Where is that found in the Bible?

    It is clear that the bible teaches that those who are Justified will believe.

    Rom 8:30-33 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

    Jesus makes it clear that He has authority over all flesh to give eternal life to the elect.

    Joh 17:1-3 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

    Explain how those who are justified don't receive faith. If they are given the righteousness of Christ how can they not recieve faith.

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    By the will of God a few will understand and by the will of God most will not.
    Rom 8:18-21, (NASB), For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Forester
    Yes, you will not find those exact words said by God but the concept is clearly taught.

    Psa 11:4-7 The LORD is in his holy temple; the LORD's throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test the children of man. The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence. Let him rain coals on the wicked; fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup. For the LORD is righteous; he loves righteous deeds; the upright shall behold his face.

    The righteous are loved and the wicked are hated.
    This makes the assumption that love and hatred are completely incompatible. I also think it is the wrong way to read the text. The purpose is that each person read the text and realize that they are the wicked and that they be driven to Christ. If God does not love the wicked then God would never say the following:

    Ezekiel 18:23-30 "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live? 24 " But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. 25 " Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 "Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 "Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 "Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair? 30 " Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord GOD. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin.

    Luke 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

    If Christ did not make reconciliation for the wicked then Ezekiel is just a big joke.

    What are you saying here? What did Christ accomplish for the unbeliever? They didn't recieve Christ's Righteousness, Correct? So what justification are you talking about. Do you hold to two different justifications? Where is that found in the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by forester
    It is clear that the bible teaches that those who are Justified will believe.

    Rom 8:30-33 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
    This is pretty clearly speaking of subjective justification. It is not speaking of the objective justification that ocurred on the cross as can be seen from the ordering of events.
    asdfasd
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    You missed my point entirely.

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    If God does not love the wicked then God would never say the following:

    Ezekiel 18:23-30 \"Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?\" says the Lord GOD, \"and not that he should turn from his ways and live? 24 \" But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. 25 \" Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 \"When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 \"Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 \"Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 \"Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair? 30 \" Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,\" says the Lord GOD. \"Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin.
    Bob has answered this:
    In the legion of controversies over teaching that is labeled and damned by Ďevangelicalsí as hyper-Calvinism, no scripture has ever been quoted more frequently than the following passage from Ezekiel:

    Yet you say, ĎWhy should the son not bear the guilt of the father?í Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. \"But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?\" says the Lord GOD, \"and not that he should turn from his ways and live? . . . \"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,\" says the Lord GOD. \"Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies, says the Lord GOD. \"Therefore turn and live!\" Ezek. 18:19-23; 30-32 NKJV

    It is beneficial to read the whole chapter to gain an understanding of the context. Only the nation of Israel is being addressed, not the nations in general. The wicked in view are not the reprobate of the masses referred to in the Psalms and other prophets, but the currently unrepentant among those Jews exiled to Babylon. The terms of life and death expressed are clearly those of the law covenant (see Ex. 19:3-9); not the promise. The people of Israel are exhorted to turn from their wickedness back to God and avoid the curse of the law.

    The myriad of interpretations attempting to universalize this passage, as if it is expressing the principles of how God deals with all people in all ages, is nothing less than shameful. Two common variances of universalistic interpretation are worth mentioning: free-willism and hypo-Calvinism.
    1. Free-willism ignores every principle of Godís covenant of grace taught elsewhere in the Bible and proposes that this passage teaches revolving-door salvation for all mankind. Such an interpretation has no gospel left to proclaim; man gets to heaven by purifying his own heart and obeying God. He is in an alternating state of salvation and damnation depending upon his current experience of personal righteousness and repentance. The most that the atonement does for people in this teaching is the forgiveness of past sins, granting a clean slate upon which man can write his own future salvation or damnation.
    2. Hypo-Calvinism and all versions of free-will theology ignore every principle of Godís purpose of wrath taught elsewhere in the Bible; proposing that this passage denies a positive reprobation. God refers to the law-covenant; stating that in connection with it he has no pleasure in the death of the currently unrepentant among Israel. This is supposed to be telling us that God has no willing purpose to execute his eternal wrath upon a people created for the sole purpose of magnifying his glory in their damnation.

    Any such views deny the Pauline teaching of double predestination in Rom. 9, Christís teaching of a positive reprobation in his parable of the soils, and even other Old Testament scriptures where a universal scope of Godís pleasure and purposes is taught outright:

    \"Remember this, and show yourselves men; Recall to mind, O you transgressors, Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ĎMy counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure. Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country, Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. Listen to me, you stubborn hearted, Who are far from righteousness; I bring My righteousness near, it shall not be far off; My salvation shall not linger, And I will place salvation in Zion, For Israil My glory. Isa. 46-8-10 NKJV

    The rest of Isaiah is very clear about Godís purposes to redeem his remnant in Israel. He loves Israel only and will therefore accomplish his pleasure in the destruction of Babylon (especially 48:14). The context of these passages is very clearly related to the promise, not the law. We learn from Godís subsequent revelation that the true Israel is not Israel after the flesh--but the remnant of fleshly Israel in whom God fulfills his eternal covenant--plus those whom God purposes to redeem from among the nations.

    God is very clear elsewhere in Ezekiel that he will experience no pity for the non-elect of Israel when he judges the finally impenitent for their iniquity (5:11, 7:4, 9; 8:18, 9:10). God laughs at the misfortune of the reprobate and mocks them when he finally brings about their last calamity (Ps. 37:13, 59:8, Prov. 1:26). So although God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked referred to in Ezek. 18, he most certainly takes pleasure in the final judgment of those predestined to reprobation.

    If the greater light of Godís revelation to Paul is shone upon the Ezek. 18 passage, it becomes clear why God took no pleasure in the death of the wicked referred to there. The conditions of the ministration of condemnation there reiterated were impossible for mankind to fulfill. If there were no other covenant grounded purely in Godís promised purpose of grace, all would perish. But God took pleasure in redeeming the wicked remnant among Israel who had been exiled to Babylon. He established with them a new and everlasting covenant based on grace which was wholly promissory (Ezek. 36, 37).
    Quote Originally Posted by wb
    Luke 5:32 \"I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.\"
    Jesus did not come to call the SELF righteous (those who do not see themselves as sinners) - but sinners (those who do) to repentance.

    Lk 5:32, (GILL), I came not to call the righteous,.... Such as the Scribes and Pharisees were in their own apprehension, and in the esteem of others, who trusted in themselves, that they were righteous, and submitted not to the righteousness of Christ: these Christ came not to call by his grace, and therefore did not associate himself with them: but sinners to repentance; such as the publicans, and others, with them, were; and therefore he was chiefly with such, and chose to be among them: these he not only called to repentance by the outward ministry of the word, but brought them to it; he having power to bestow the grace of repentance, as well as to call to the duty of it; See Gill on "Mt 9:13".See Gill on "Mr 2:17".

    Quote Originally Posted by wb
    If Christ did not make reconciliation for the wicked then Ezekiel is just a big joke.
    Well then I guess the joke is on you.
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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    Calvinator:

    Lutherans such as myself would say that all have in fact been objectively reconciled in Christ. We subjectively receive this reconciliation through the instrument of faith.

    WB, could you please show me where this is in Scripture?
    Col 2:9, (NASB), For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by forester
    You missed my point entirely.
    I really don't think I did. You were trying to prove that the "wicked" are forever under God's wrath and therefore are not loved by God. I provided Scriptural examples where the wicked receive God's love.


    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Higby
    It is beneficial to read the whole chapter to gain an understanding of the context. Only the nation of Israel is being addressed, not the nations in general. The wicked in view are not the reprobate of the masses referred to in the Psalms and other prophets, but the currently unrepentant among those Jews exiled to Babylon. The terms of life and death expressed are clearly those of the law covenant (see Ex. 19:3-9); not the promise. The people of Israel are exhorted to turn from their wickedness back to God and avoid the curse of the law.
    Although it is true that the nation of Israel is being addressed, "God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked" is a general statement that is being particularly applied to Israel in this case. God does not say "I take no pleasure in the death of your wicked" or "I take no pleasure in the death of wicked Israelites." God expresses a general truth about Himself.

    Much of the rest of what Bob rights is addressed to hypo-Calvinists and free-willism. I don't hold to either of these positions so I won't bother to comment. I am not a Calvinist. I am a monergist. If there are particular things in his interpretation that you believe I need to address please let me know.

    What I will say is that is that no matter how you slice it, within Scripture God's wrath and love are not mutually exclusive. Even those who hold to a limited atonement view have to admit this. One poster has already pointed out rightly that "propitiation" is an appeasement of God's wrath. So God never displayed His love upon those for whom His wrath was burning then the crucifixion was completely unnecessary. Of course the Scriptures are clear--the ungodly whom God justifies, the same group of people who needed to be reconciled with God because there was some serious wrath going on, these same people it is said that God loved them in this manner, that He sent His only-begotten Son to die for them. There is absolutely no way of getting around the idea that wrath and love can occur within God towards the same people.

    Quote Originally Posted by trav
    WB, could you please show me where this is in Scripture?
    There are many passages but I'll just post a couple.

    2 Cor. 5:19 God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them

    In the next verse Paul calls on his readers to be reconciled to God who is already said to be reconciled to them. Ephesians 2:8 says we are saved by grace through the instrument of faith.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    "God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked" is a general statement that is being particularly applied to Israel in this case. God does not say "I take no pleasure in the death of your wicked" or "I take no pleasure in the death of wicked Israelites." God expresses a general truth about Himself.

    God states that He hates the very person of the wicked or reprobates (Ps. 5:5, Ps. 11:5). This is the GENERAL truth of the matter.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Higby
    God states that He hates the very person of the wicked or reprobates (Ps. 5:5, Ps. 11:5). This is the GENERAL truth of the matter.
    Yet, He also says He loves them and desires that they turn from their sin.

    Psalm 5:5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

    Unless you have stopped sinning then this verse also describes you.

    Psalm 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

    There is nothing within these passages that teaches that the "wicked" or "workers of iniquity" are groups of some "reprobate" class beyond hope of salvation. The "wicked" in Psalm 11:5 are the same who in Ezekiel God says that He does not desire their death but that they turn from their sins. In Ezekiel I don't even think it is the wicked who have as much to worry about as the righteous. The "righteous" are warned that if they just sin a little they will experience God's wrath. The wicked are told to repent and believe the Gospel.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    The two groups, are the two seeds spoken of at the beginning of Genesis; one reprobate, one elect. If God loves both groups and hates both groups, then both are the same group. God is not the author of confusion. The elect have been justified from eternity and always loved. The reprobate have been damned from eternity and always hated. God does not change. Anyone who does not see this as truth, is either one of God's unregenerate elect, or reprobate.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Highly Favored
    The two groups, are the two seeds spoken of at the beginning of Genesis; one reprobate, one elect. If God loves both groups and hates both groups, then both are the same group. God is not the author of confusion. The elect have been justified from eternity and always loved. The reprobate have been damned from eternity and always hated. God does not change. Anyone who does not see this as truth, is either one of God's unregenerate elect, or reprobate.
    So does that mean that Ezekiel was a reprobate or that God was a reprobate? I'm talking about actual texts and you are retreating into man-made system. The Scriptures speak of the wicked turning and God promises salvation to wicked who repent, so either God is a liar or you've got the Jeffersonian scissors out cutting out the parts you don't like.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    It is of no consequence, nor is it surprising that you would respond this way, WB. Your response actually proves my point. I don't expect you to understand these things, nor do I think you can. You always cite that you are following scripture, but that seems to be a convenience to you. When somebody shows you something different, you are the first one to jump up and say "Paradox!" I agree with Gordon Clark's assessment that a perceived logical paradox found within scripture is nothing more than a charlie-horse between the ears, and in my opinion, you are suffering from one!
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    Psalm 5:5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

    Unless you have stopped sinning then this verse also describes you.

    Psalm 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
    Wrong, WB. These verses describe those that have not been declared righteous by God. If what you say is true, then there is no one that God would love, because no one is without sin.
    Rom 8:18-21, (NASB), For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildboar
    The Scriptures speak of the wicked turning and God promises salvation to wicked who repent, so either God is a liar or you've got the Jeffersonian scissors out cutting out the parts you don't like.
    Charles,

    I just have one question about what you said above. When the wicked turn to God and are saved, is it because:

    1. They repent and turn to God and are Justified and regenerated. There Justification is direct result of their repentance.

    2. God Justified and regenerated them causing them to repent and turn to Christ. Their repentance is a direct result of their justification.

    How do you see it? Choose one.

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Highly Favored
    It is of no consequence, nor is it surprising that you would respond this way, WB. Your response actually proves my point. I don't expect you to understand these things, nor do I think you can.
    This is just the standard enthusiast answer. I think people often confuse their own indigestion with the working of the Holy Spirit. There are countless sects and cults founded upon this idea that anyone on the outside just doesn't understand because they haven't been enlightened. But let's plug "elect" in for "righteous" and "reprobate" in for "wicked" and see what happens:

    Ezekiel 18:23-30 according to Highly Favored's paradigm"Do I have any pleasure at all that the reprobate should die?" says the Lord GOD, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live? 24 " But when an elect man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the reprobate man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. 25 " Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 "When an elect man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 "Again, when a reprobate man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 "Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 "Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair? 30 " Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord GOD. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin.
    So according to your paradigm, if the elect sin then they go to hell, if the reprobate repent then they go to heaven. Sounds kind of Pelagian to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calvinator
    Wrong, WB. These verses describe those that have not been declared righteous by God. If what you say is true, then there is no one that God would love, because no one is without sin.
    The Scriptures are not about those who have been declared righteous by God. All of the Scriptures are about Jesus. The wicked/righteous theme in the Psalms is not presenting us with a elect/reprobate theme. Jesus didn't say that all the Scriptures were about the elect and reprobate. Jesus said all the Scriptures are about Him. There is no such thing as a non-Messianic Psalm. We are all wicked. There are none good, there is none who seek after God. The Psalms are meant to point us to our own wickedness and to seek refuge in the Righteous One.

    I just have one question about what you said above. When the wicked turn to God and are saved, is it because:

    1. They repent and turn to God and are Justified and regenerated. There Justification is direct result of their repentance.

    2. God Justified and regenerated them causing them to repent and turn to Christ. Their repentance is a direct result of their justification.

    How do you see it? Choose one.
    I'm unclear as to what you mean by "are saved" and regardless both statements are wrong. Salvation in Scripture has past, present, and future aspects but is still mostly future. We will be saved when Christ returns. Us being saved is not because of our repentance. Us being saved is because Christ died for us.

    Justification was objectively accomplished by Christ on the cross. We receive the benefits of that justification through the Word as the Word effectively works in the preaching and the sacraments. The Holy Spirit works repentance and faith in us. We subjectively receive the benefits of justification through faith. Faith is a gift of God and is like an eyeball. It doesn't contribute anything but allows the person to see what is already true. We are saved by grace through the instrument of faith in that sense.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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