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Thread: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the good

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Charles, just a side note. I have been reading your responses from the time you have responded to my questions. I have not overlooked your contraditions and inconsistencies. Quite frankly they are laughable.

    I am currently in the process of preparing a lengthy refutation. Be assured, I will respond in due time. Lord willing.

    How's that "comfy chair"?

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    We subjectively receive the benefits of justification through faith. Faith is a gift of God and is like an eyeball. It doesn't contribute anything but allows the person to see what is already true. We are saved by grace through the instrument of faith in that sense.

    If faith is only seeing what is already true, then how can someone at the same time say that Christ died in some sense for every individual? Not being able to see what is already true does not make it any less true. If salvation is based on Christ and what is already true, then my seeing it is for my joy and peace, and as you said, contributes nothing. Therefore, these are special things only for his elect, and that is why only they get to see and enjoy them.
    I will cry unto God most high; unto God that performeth all things for me. (Psalm 57:2)

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    I'm talking about actual texts and you are retreating into man-made system.

    So your denominational system is manna from heaven, the bread that comes only from God?

    There are only two hermeneutics to interpret scripture when it comes to ecclesiological bias: that of the religious instution and that of the truth-seeker.

    1. The religious instution: I search the Bible to prove that the message of my religious institution is true.

    2. The truth-seeker: I search the Bible to learn from God's revelation, however devastating that may be to my former or present dogma.

    You can only have one or the other, NEVER both.

    I conclude that not seeing the contextual difference between Isaiah/the Psalms vs. Ezekiel on this subject is pure traditional bias.

    Since God will accomplish ALL of His pleasure, if God states that He takes no pleasure in the death of certain wicked persons, those persons will not experience the death referred to! I respect universalism far more than these contradictory interpretations of evangelicalism; it is more honest with the text.

    --Bob
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    This is just the standard enthusiast answer.
    Well, I am enthusiastic about the gospel, my remarks where not some freshmen attempt at trying to make you feel bad but an honest portrayal of the truth that any who believe the real gospel will grasp at once.

    I think people often confuse their own indigestion with the working of the Holy Spirit.
    Your point is the same as mine, many confuse the truth of God and being led by the Holy Spirit with some "feeling" or "knowing". I do not subscribe to some esoteric understanding of scripture, but what is open and in plain site. I can't help it that you can't see it and feel the need to revert to stupid torts in an attempt at defending your religious position.

    There are countless sects and cults founded upon this idea that anyone on the outside just doesn't understand because they haven't been enlightened. But let's plug "elect" in for "righteous" and "reprobate" in for "wicked" and see what happens:
    I have a better idea, lets clean the toe jam from between our toes and do an interpretive dance (an honest attempt at humor to show how ridiculous your statements can be at times). Your statement about sects and cults is true, perhaps we should angle the microscope ever so slightly and look at the lutheran church, I think it fits your perimeters quite well.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by st. nick
    Charles, just a side note. I have been reading your responses from the time you have responded to my questions. I have not overlooked your contraditions and inconsistencies. Quite frankly they are laughable.

    I am currently in the process of preparing a lengthy refutation. Be assured, I will respond in due time. Lord willing.


    How's that "comfy chair"?


    I don't know why my short responses and questions require such a lengthy answer unless you are attempting to attack the imaginary wildboar that exists in your mind and not what I actually wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Merry
    If faith is only seeing what is already true, then how can someone at the same time say that Christ died in some sense for every individual? Not being able to see what is already true does not make it any less true. If salvation is based on Christ and what is already true, then my seeing it is for my joy and peace, and as you said, contributes nothing.
    If I take a piece of steak and shove it in your mouth and force you to chew and swallow and you in return spit it out, that doesn't mean that there was a defect in the steak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Higby
    There are only two hermeneutics to interpret scripture when it comes to ecclesiological bias: that of the religious instution and that of the truth-seeker.

    1. The religious instution: I search the Bible to prove that the message of my religious institution is true.

    2. The truth-seeker: I search the Bible to learn from God's revelation, however devastating that may be to my former or present dogma.

    You can only have one or the other, NEVER both.
    And there are all kinds of religious groups making this claim that everyone else is just following a religious institution--Baptists, Calvary Chapel folks, emergents, and what have you. I have a real hard time believing you are the real deal "truth seeker" when your answers are dogmatic proclamations and do not wrestle with the actual text.

    Do you agree or disagree with Highly Favored's premise that righteous=elect and wicked=reprobate. If you disagree please state why. If you agree please explain Ezekiel in light of this premise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Highly Favored
    I have a better idea, lets clean the toe jam from between our toes and do an interpretive dance (an honest attempt at humor to show how ridiculous your statements can be at times). Your statement about sects and cults is true, perhaps we should angle the microscope ever so slightly and look at the lutheran church, I think it fits your perimeters quite well.
    Your premise is that righteous=elect and wicked=reprobate. All I did was insert the words by which you said were the correct interpretation. Why not deal with text or at least explain yourself?
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    If I take a piece of steak and shove it in your mouth and force you to chew and swallow and you in return spit it out, that doesn't mean that there was a defect in the steak.
    If this is a metaphor for God converting a wicked sinner, it would show a defect in God's ability to change a wicked heart. In other words, the steak is defective.
    Rom 8:18-21, (NASB), For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Charles,

    How does Ezekiel 18 contradict anything anyone here has said? You must not understand the passage if you think it is in opposition to what we've been saying. Look at the three different verse below. The righteous and wicked in this passage is talking about perceived righteous and perceived wicked. This is clearly shown because in each instance it is qualified by the words "does what is..." Or "Turns away" pointing to the fact that the passage is talking about outward appearance of righteousness or wickedness. In the first and last passage I quoted below they are both refering to a outwardly righteous person. In one instance the person is elect and in the other instance the person is reprobate. The reason the elect person is righteous and does righteousness is soley because of Christ's Righteousness imputed on their behalf. They do good works because of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. The middle passage talks about the outwardly wicked person who repents because they are truely elect and the Holy Spirit regenerated them. Christ's Righteousness is imputed on this outwardly wicked person just like the outwardly righteous person who is elect.

    Eze 18:5-9 "If a man is righteous and does what is just and right-- does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, does not lend at interest or take any profit, withholds his hand from injustice, executes true justice between man and man, walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully--he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord GOD.

    Eze 18:21 "But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

    Eze 18:24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

    One of the points of this whole passage is to point out that we should not judge and assume that just because a person looks righteous or wicked doesn't mean they truly are in an eternal sense. Since all people are wicked and there are none righteous, the specific deeds of a person are not reliable to determine anything.

    Another point of the passage is that the Lord is Calling out His elect from Israel and proclaiming that they repent. It is clear from other scriptures that not all are elect. Only those that are elect will respond. Read all the previous chapters to put it in context. God is about to cause the death and destruction of many in Israel and the destruction of Jerusalem. This death and destruction includes those who are outwordly wicked and righteous. God is explaining His Judgement on Israel.

    The interesting thing about this passage is that the Lord repeats himself in verses 27 and 28 and then pronounces a judgement on Israel. The chapter then ends with this.

    Eze 18:31-32 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."

    God calls on them to make themselves a new heart and a new spirit. I checked out what Gill had to say on this since it seemed to contridict other scriptures and I agree with his assessement

    Here is Gill:
    Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions whereby ye have transgressed,.... "As unprofitable and pernicious, to be abhorred and abstained from, and to be cast off, as loads and burdens upon them. Kimchi interprets it of the punishment of their sins, which might be cast off, or escaped, by repentance; perhaps it is best to interpret it of the casting away of their idols, by which they transgressed; see Eze_20:7;
    and make you a new heart and a new spirit; which the Lord elsewhere promises to give, and he does give to his own elect; See Gill on Eze_11:19; and if here to be understood of a regenerated heart and spirit, in which are new principles of light, life, and love, grace and holiness, it will not prove that it is in the power of man to make himself such a heart and spirit; since from God's command, to man's power, is no argument; and the design of the exhortation is to convince men of their want of such a heart; of the importance of it: and which, through the efficacious grace of God, may be a means of his people having it, seeing he has in covenant promised it to them. The Targum renders it,
    "a fearing heart, and a spirit of fear;''
    that is, a heart and spirit to fear, serve, and worship the Lord, and not idols; and so the amount of the exhortation is, yield a hearty reverential obedience to the living God, and not to dumb idols; or that they would be hearty and sincere in their national repentance and reformation they are here pressed unto:
    for why will ye die, O house of Israel? which is to be understood, not of an eternal death; since the deaths here spoken of was now upon them, what they were complaining of, and from which they might be recovered, Eze_18:2; but temporal calamity and affliction, as in 2Co_1:10; and so in the following words."

    Charles, you need to take the whole of scripture into account when you read passages like this. You seem to like trying to make everything a paradox don't you. That is what happens when you take things out of context.

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    Do you agree or disagree with Highly Favored's premise that righteous=elect and wicked=reprobate. If you disagree please state why. If you agree please explain Ezekiel in light of this premise.

    Your premise is that righteous=elect and wicked=reprobate. All I did was insert the words by which you said were the correct interpretation. Why not deal with text or at least explain yourself?
    I don't recall making this equivocation. WB where exactly did I say this?
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Forester07 View Post

    Charles, you need to take the whole of scripture into account when you read passages like this. You seem to like trying to make everything a paradox don't you. That is what happens when you take things out of context.

    That's what you have to do to avoid the plain and obvious truth taught in Scripture.

    1 Cor 2:14, (LITV), But a natural man does not receive the things of the them, because they are spiritually discerned. Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to know
    Col 2:9, (NASB), For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by Calvinator
    If this is a metaphor for God converting a wicked sinner, it would show a defect in God's ability to change a wicked heart. In other words, the steak is defective.
    The steak is the objective reconciliation accomplished by Christ on the cross. It is what it is regardless if people deny it just as steak remains steak even if people say it is not steak. Remind me not to ever eat with you. Apparently if I were to grill the steak, unless I could force feed you and keep you from gagging it up you would tell me that it wasn't steak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forester
    How does Ezekiel 18 contradict anything anyone here has said?
    Because Highly Favored said that righteous=elect and wicked=reprobate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Highly Favored
    I don't recall making this equivocation. WB where exactly did I say this?
    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    Yet, He also says He loves them and desires that they turn from their sin.

    Psalm 5:5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

    Unless you have stopped sinning then this verse also describes you.

    Psalm 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

    There is nothing within these passages that teaches that the "wicked" or "workers of iniquity" are groups of some "reprobate" class beyond hope of salvation. The "wicked" in Psalm 11:5 are the same who in Ezekiel God says that He does not desire their death but that they turn from their sins. In Ezekiel I don't even think it is the wicked who have as much to worry about as the righteous. The "righteous" are warned that if they just sin a little they will experience God's wrath. The wicked are told to repent and believe the Gospel.
    In the section above I was making reference to the terms "wicked" and "righteous" and you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Highly Favored yesterday at 3:02 PM
    The two groups, are the two seeds spoken of at the beginning of Genesis; one reprobate, one elect. If God loves both groups and hates both groups, then both are the same group. God is not the author of confusion. The elect have been justified from eternity and always loved. The reprobate have been damned from eternity and always hated. God does not change. Anyone who does not see this as truth, is either one of God's unregenerate elect, or reprobate.
    To which I responded with Ezekiel who apparently did not see this as truth. But I won't bother repeating myself since I just did a whole lot of repeating already. If anyone wants to reread the posts from yesterday and today and read about how I believe the righteous one is Christ and all us sinners are the wicked they are welcome to do so. The Bible is not a book whose central message is the elect vs. the reprobate in a steel cage match. The Bible is about Christ. Jesus said it is about Himself.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Charles: I have a real hard time believing you are the real deal "truth seeker" when your answers are dogmatic proclamations and do not wrestle with the actual text.

    And we do not believe that you are wrestling with the actual text. So what does it prove for either of us to continuously parrot to the other "it's not scriptural, it's not scriptural, it's not scriptural."

    We know that you do not respect our exegesis and interpretations here Charles--we even recognize that you believe our statements are dogmatic ramblings of 'head knowledge' and not real convictions of the Holy Spirit. So why keep making the point that you do not respect them? Our discussion on this plane has become pointless.

    But for the sake of others, I will continue with a few more points.

    The contrast of 'righteous' and 'wicked' in the Old Testament is not always talking about the same two entities. The Psalms and much of the Prophets are focused on true and ultimate rebels--real reprobates (the 'wicked') versus true and ultimate worshippers of God--real elect (the 'just' or 'righteous'). There are no 'shades of gray' here--in this context all such contrast between the just and the unjust is pure black and white. Just start reading the Psalms--this emphasis is there from the beginning.

    As one small example, Ps. 11:6 immediately following 11:5 where God states he hates the wicked:

    Upon the wicked He will rain snares; Fire and brimstone and burning wind will be the portion of their cup.

    Which identifies them as reprobates. So the notion that 'righteous vs. wicked' is not 'elect vs. reprobate' in a large measure of the OT is without foundation and leads to misunderstanding the whole core message of scripture.

    There is also the covenantal use of 'righteous' vs. 'wicked' that is different. It refers to a just or unjust status in relation to the covenant with Israel. This is what is talked about in Ezek. 18, 33 and even in our greatly loved passage in Isa. 46:8-13

    "Remember this, and be assured; Recall it to mind, you transgressors.
    "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it. "Listen to Me, you stubborn-minded, Who are far from righteousness. "I bring near My righteousness, it is not far off; And My salvation will not delay. And I will grant salvation in Zion, And My glory for Israel.

    The wicked ('transgressors') who become righteous ('saved') in this passage are those elect in Israel who presently experience covenant disobedience but will be restored to covenant fellowship with God. It is the same point in Ezekiel. These passages are NOT TALKING about reprobate vs. elect in the broad sense but covenant-breakers in the context of Israel who shall nonetheless be brought into fellowship with God. And the promise for these is not limited to the earthly covenant with Israel, it also embraces eternal salvation as well.

    The point is, there is no 'pleasure' talked about in Ezekiel that God will fail to perform, as confirmed by the above passage!

    --Bob
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    In the book of Ezekiel we also find language regarding the wicked very similar to that found in the Psalms.

    Ezekiel 21:29 while they see for you false visions, while they divine lies for you - to place you on the necks of the profane wicked, whose day has come, the time of their final punishment.

    The above statement sounds very final and absolute just as some of the passages in the Psalms do but we also find the following:

    Ezekiel 18:27-28 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 "Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

    In the Psalms we read statements like:

    Psalm 10:4 The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts.

    In the New Testament we read nobody seeks after God and so we are all the wicked.

    Psalm 10:15 Break the arm of the wicked and the evil man; Seek out his wickedness until You find none.

    Christ was the righteous One but became the wicked man for us by bearing all of our sins. ALL of our sins were punished in Him. He is the fulfillment of this prophecy as He is the fulfillment of all prophecy. To make all of Scripture about an elect/reprobate paradigm is to make the same mistake as the dispensationalist who also denies that Christ is the fulfillment of all the prophecies. Otherwise Jesus and Paul were both wrong. ALL the promises are fulfilled in Christ.

    Here's the entry from TWOT for rasha (wicked):

    rsh. Wicked, criminal This masculine noun appears over 266 times, mostly in Job, Ps, Prov, and Ezek. It is used in parallel with almost every Hebrew word for sin, evil, and iniquity. The word functions also as an adjective to designate in concrete terms the actions and conduct of a type of person. Sometimes context points to the attitude and intention of people. Primarily, rsh is an objective fact, rather than a subjective phenomenon.

    The measure of rsh is its contrast with the character and attitude of God. The questions in Abraham's intercession imply that God is against rsh (wicked) people. So does Exo 23:7; Job 9:22; Psa 37:28; Ezek 33:11; Mic 6:10.

    Wicked people were guilty of violation of the social rights of others, for they were violent, oppressive, greedy, engaged in plotting against and trapping poor people, and quite willing to murder to gain their ends. In a word, they threatened the community. They were dishonest in business and in the courtroom. For examples see Exo 2:13; Num 35:31; 2Sam 4:11. 2Chronicles 19:2 notes that these people hate the Lord. Malachi 3:18 gives their refusal to serve the Lord as a major trait.

    Frequently, eighty times, half of them in the book of Proverbs, rsh is placed in antithetic parallelism to edeq (the righteous) and it is from this contrast we get the clearest profile of the rsh kind of people. The Psalmist protests that he is not one of them, for they persecute him and take a stand against God and his laws. At times he begs that God protect him from them. The book of Prov contains a great deal of antithetical parallelism, which contrasts the rsh and the sedeq in black and white terms. The focus is on both the quality of lifestyle and the results of these two ways of living. Whereas the wicked forsake God, the righteous cling to him. Though the wicked are oppressive and dishonest, the righteous are upright and lovers of truth, etc.

    Other antonyms include: tam "blameless" (Job 9:22; Prov 11:5); yashar "upright" (Psa 37:37ff; Prov 2:21ff; Prov 11:11, etc.); makl "the wise" (Dan 12:10); "the poor" = "the afflicted" (dal, Isa 11:4; an, Job 36:6; nw, Isa 11:4; Psa 147:6), etc.

    Words semantically parallel include "those who hate righteousness" (Psa 34:22); "those who do evil" (Psa 28:3; Psa 92:7 [H 81; Psa 101:8; Psa 141:10 [H 9]; cf. Isa 55:7; Job 22:16, 18); "those who do wickedly" (mrm, Psa 26:5; Psa 37:10 [H 9]; Prov 24:19, ra, Psa 10:15; Prov 4:14; Prov 14:19; Prov 24:20; mwwl, Psa 71:4; awwl, Job 27:7; Prov 29:27; hnp, Job 20:5); "those who deal ruthlessly Psa 71:4; hb amas, Psa 11:5; ish msm, Psa 140:5); "tyrant" (ari, Isa 13:11; Job 15:20 Job 27:13; cf. Psa 37:35; mshl "ruler" Isa 14:5); "proud" (gm, Psa 94:3; cf. Job 40:12; zdm "arrogant" Isa 13:11; "foolish" llm (Psa 73:3; Psa 75:4 [H 5]; "rich" (shr, Isa 53:9; cf Psa 17:13ff), "sinners" (Psa 1:1, 5; Psa 104:35); "scorners" (Psa 1:1; Prov 9:7); "transgressors" (Psa 37:38); "liars" (Psa 58:3 [H 4]; Psa 109:2); "faithless" (Jer 12:1; Hab 1:13; Prov 2:22; Prov 21:18); etc.

    The inner lives of the wicked correspond to their actions, They are vicious, haughty, treacherous, vile, polluted, and unstable. One might expect that such people would always be kept under the restraints of law and order and suffer defeat every moment of life. Not so. Job was troubled with the strange topsy-turvy nature of the moral order here and now (Job 9:24; Job 10:3; Job 16:11; Job 21:7; Job 17, 28). The Preacher struggled with this absurdity (Eccl 7:15; Eccl 8:14), as did Jeremiah (Jer 12:1).

    The doubts of some in times of stress did not cloud the clear doctrine of God's strong opposition to wicked people. Psalmists and prophets not only pleaded that God punish the wicked, God proclaimed his intention to do so, and there are descriptions of the horror of his judgment s (Job 36:17; Psa 9:5 [H 6], 16 [H 17]; Prov 24:20-24; Jer 25:31; Zeph 1:3; Mal 4:3).

    One might conclude that once God punished the wicked the moral order would be corrected, but God's servants knew that judgment was not God's best or most desired solution. Both God and man saw acts of salvation as the best way to deal with the wicked person. The Psalmist pled for forgiveness (Psa 71:4; Psa 82:4), and God both promised (Isa 55:7) and provided for it (Isa 53:9). Moses (Num 16:26); a wise man (Prov 4:14); Isaiah, and a prophet (Isa 55:7) exhorted people to forsake the wicked life and turn to him. Particularly, in Ezek 18, 33 the responsibility for doing this was laid directly on the individual. And there is recorded both testimony (Psa 1:1; Psa 37:40) and commitment to the reality of such salvation by God's mercy (Psa 39:1 [H 2]; Psa 119:95).
    Isaiah 55:7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

    Isaiah 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

    Christ died for the wicked.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    I want to address Charles below statements and responses. You know me, I am not big on one-liners, but rather I like reasoning through the implications of the false premises that I believe Charles is espousing. A reasoning that attempts to reconcile the scriptures as to not force God (trinity) to be at odds within His own divine will and purpose.


    In all honesty, I used to think that Charles was just another troublemaker. However after reading the majority of his posts and responses, I am fully convinced that he is confused and lost. A person that in thinking himself wise has been manifested as a fool. And more so now since he has been a card carrying Lutheran for some time now, a fool full of blatant contradictions. Contradictions he is unable to see due to massive influences and doses of the traditional soteriological teachings of Roman Catholicism (Augustine and Aquinas) and Lutheranism (a whore child of Rome) that has gripped his mind. Unless God convicts Charles heart and regenerates his mind he will continue to fall into deeper confusion as most Lutherans have done over the past four centuries.


    I could site a plethora of articles and documents wherein Lutherans (clergy/laity) class distinctions they believe, who are leaving their folds and joining the Roman Church and some vice versa.


    But why? When reading these articles you will find a common silver thread. Their common understanding of Soteriology and Ecclesiology are basically the same except for some minor differences. As for the scriptural Gospel as taught by Paul and the Apostles of Christ, they are void of understanding. And not only void but rebel against the true Gospel.


    Just like those in the world who deny the divinity (trinity) of Christ, they to ( unregenerate men) are confused as to what the Gospel is along with the soteriological implications of the Gospel.


    Even the word “soteriological” implies the use of logic. These poor miserable religious souls will even discard reason and logic components of wisdom and discernment that are communicable attributes from God. When one’s hermeneutic involves the confounding of desire and purpose within the Godhead, it is a sure sign of Eisegesis rather than Exegesis.


    This post is not intended to slander Charles or rather for the aiding of Charles, for I know he is unable to discern truth, but rather to give this audience (who are God’s elect) a glimpse as to the confusion within Lutheranism in general and specifically the brand of Lutheranism Charles embraces. It is for the benefit of God’s people who have been given ears to hear and eyes to see.


    For them that are without the Body of Christ (dogs), this post will be hot coals of fire on them.


    Lets proceed!


    Charles stated:The death of Christ is definitely effective and forever”

    This statement is absolutely true, however as we will see, Charles has absolutely no understanding of the implications of this statement. In fact a loss or giving up one’s salvation contradicts efficacy.

    Now you all know that Charles teaches that in Christ’s death the whole world of every human being has been justified effectively and forever (objectively) that is. We will key in later what “efficacy” means and how it relates to Justification.

    My response: “If your answer is #3, then how can Christ's death be effective if He lost some of those for whom He had died for? My #3 question was 3. For all who are and will be in Heaven and Hell?


    Let’s look at some scripture before I list Charles response to my above question.


    Romans 3:

    20 wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin.

    In the third chapter of Romans, the apostle Paul is building his case for the doctrine of Justification through faith alone.
    24 being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that [is] in Christ Jesus,

    The thrust of Paul’s doctrine is the “declaration or verdict of righteousness”. In this context Justification that is freely reckoned by Grace Alone in the death of Christ objectively.

    26 for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who [is] of the faith of Jesus.

    Paul is now starting to show from the objectivity of Justification in verse 24, in which we will say is the cause, the resultant effect of that one and same Justification which is through faith alone. There is never a cause that has no effect, and never an effect that was not caused. This even holds true to our understanding of the will of man. But that is another subject. Remember Charles teaches that the objective death of Christ (Justification which is the cause) is for ALL men (every single human bieng) without distinction effectual. However this cause (Justification) will not have a salvific effect for those who end up in hell. So we have here from Charles a cause (to declare righteous/Justification) with no effect for those in hell. This conclusion from Charles defies ALL scriptural reason, the holy scriptures, and all natural reason. Even highly educated unregenerate men in the sciences and fields of Chemistry, Psychology, Archeology, Biology, Astronomy, Physiology, and so forth, would all contend and defend the principle of Cause and Effect. Even Darwinians conclude that life, earth, galaxy, and universe came into existence (effect) from a cause. Of course their cause (the big bang theory) is patently false, however they are not naive enough to deny the law of cause and effect.

    30 yes, also of nations; since one [is] God who shall declare righteous the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through the faith.


    Above, Paul is now addressing the universality of Justification. It’s recipients encompass Jews and Gentiles. However, and keep this in mind please, Justification is limited only to those who believe. We will address later who are made willing to believe. So to conclude thus far, Justification is limited to believers. Let’s recap. When looking into the Pauline doctrine of Justification, Paul infers the distinctions of an Objective cause and the consequent effect (subjective result) of Justification. Now these are not two separate Justifications but rather one Justification viewed from two different aspects ie: effectual cause and then it’s effect, which is to believe. The former cause is alien and extrinsic to our nature and merited by Christ alone. Justification is grounded in Christ alone and imputed (reckoned) to us who believe and the rest of the elect who will believe. “God calls those thing that be not as if they were”


    Now keep in memory the historical objective death of Christ. Charles states”The death of Christ is definitely effective and foreverKeep this in mind.


    Let’s move on to Romans 4



    3 for what doth the writing say? `And Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him -- to righteousness;'

    Again here Paul reinforces the premise of Righteousness (Justification) through faith. Now to not misrepresent Charles I must state both Charles and myself would agree that “faith” is not the ground of us Justification but rather a gift from the Holy Spirit. A gift according to Charles that can be lost or repudiated. So we have here from Charles an effectual and forever Justification (cause), that may or may not have a binding effect. This defies all Spiritual reason.

    5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned -- to righteousness:
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Again the cause which is Christ and the effect/result which is faith. You will always notice in Paul’s soteriology the unbreakable connection of cause (Christ) and effect (faith).

    8 happy the man to whom the Lord may not reckon sin.'

    At this point we must address Charles belief. Charles teaches that Christ’s death atoned for the sins of all of humanity effectively and forever. How can Charles reconcile the above verse for those humans who end up in hell? Are they happy men? Not according to scripture. They should be if according to Charles their sins are atoned for.

    23 And it was not written on his (Abraham’s) account alone, that it was reckoned to him,

    24 but also on ours, to whom it is about to be reckoned -- to us believing on Him who did raise up Jesus our Lord out of the dead,

    25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous(Justification).

    We can now see clearly that a true Effectual Justification always results in faith. But this is not the case with Charles. He continues to teach that an effectual Justification may not cause one to believe.Also if it caused for some to believe, this faith (effect) can be frustrated or entirely repudiated.. Thus sinful man can overrule the Sovereign Divine Causality and Effectiveness of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection power of Justification. This my brothers and sisters in Christ is Blasphemy !!!!!!

    Romans 5

    1 Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ,



    Our dearly beloved brother Paul now continues his marvelous doctrine of Justification and shows forth more effects. The sentence construction and sequence shows clearly the past tense,

    Having been declared righteous.

    From the eternal council of God and manifested in history through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus our Lord the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, Justification (righteousness) was always reckoned to the Elect of God.

    then, (as a result of this declaration) by faith (the consequent blessing of the cause Justification), not only are we made aware of our Justification but” we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ”, What peace will those in hell have? Although according to Charles they were effectively Justified and forever?

    8 and God doth commend His own love to us, that, in our being still sinners, Christ did die for us;

    9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;



    The above two verses explain that while dead in sin God loved us to send Christ to die for us. His death is our Justification. And much more not only did Christ declare us righteous, but WE WILL be saved (not maybe according to Charles) from His wrath.Can you see the cause and the guaranteed effect? According to Charles, he espouses an effective and forever Justification with no guaranteed effect!! His whole understanding flies against the clear teaching of Paul. Charles like Augustine, Aquinas, the Roman and Lutheran theologians, have no clue to Paul’s doctrine of Justification with all it’s natural and clear implication.

    10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.

    We shall be saved in His life !! Not maybe according to Charles.



    18 So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' [it is] to all men to justification of life;



    Justification and Life are inseparable. This life in Paul’s doctrine of Justification is ETERNAL LIFE. According to Charles, this Eternal Life can cease to be eternal by the puny whims of man.

    Again, Charles like the heretics Augustine and Aquinas, deny and then confound Paul the Apostle. Now if the ALL men in the above verse are every single human been ever created, then all would have eternal life and none be in hell. Universalism would be correct. Even the Universalists do not disconnect cause and effect. Charles maintains that ALL men, every single human has been effectively and forever Justified, however some end up in hell! Charles understanding is even more confused than the universalists. Although they are incorrect also. The ALL MEN are the Elect only.



    Romans 6


    18 and having been freed from the sin, ye became servants to the righteousness

    Freed by the reconciliation of the Cross. Which is an effective and forever Justification. The guaranteed result: “ye became servants to the righteousness” But according to Charles those who repudiate or never believe in their Justification are in Hell. Then I ask, how have they become servants of righteousness Charles????????? Again, you will notice with Paul our brother he never disconnects the cause and effect.

    22 And now, having been freed from the sin, and having become servants to God, ye have your fruit -- to sanctification, and the end life age-during;



    More guaranteed results from Paul’s teaching the true doctrine of Justification which is effectual and forever.

    1. Freed from sin. But not according to Charles, for some can repudiate or never believe.

    2. Became servants of God.But not according to Charles for some can repudiate or never believe.

    3. You have fruit to sanctification But not according to Charles, for they who were effectually Justified and forever will bear no fruit in hell.

    4. Eternal Life. But not according to Charles. Are those in Hell for whom Christ effectively and forever Justified, experiencing the Eternal Life of God????
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Romans 8

    14 for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God;

    In the previous chapters discussed we addressed the connection of the cause (Justification) with many effects that Paul shares with us. In chapter eight of Romans, Paul now continues with the effects of Justification related to the inward renewal of those who are Justified. More specifically the life giving regenerating power of the Holy Spirit which is our Seal of Redemption. Paul states “ these are the sons of God”.

    Charles, Lutherans and Papists believes that through the literal water and Word spoken in the Sacrament of Water Baptism the Holy Spirit regenerates. That Lutheran or Roman Catholic individual is now “born from above” However these now Holy Spirit born regenerates can either sin venially or mortally (Papists) or repudiate (Lutherans) their Justification and thus cease to be sons of God and end up in hell.

    15 for ye did not receive a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye did receive a spirit of adoption in which we cry, `Abba -- Father.'


    Paul states we were adopted by the Holy Spirit and the natural result is that we cry Abba-Father

    Will those Papists and Lutherans who were born again by their Sacrament of water Baptism and end up in hell cry Abba-Father?

    16 The Spirit himself doth testify with our spirit, that we are children of God;

    Another result of an effectual and forever Justification is that the Holy Spirit confirms that we are Children of God. But according to Charles, Augustine, Aquinas, Lutherans, and Papists, children of God can end up in hell somehow.

    17 and if children, also heirs, heirs, indeed, of God, and heirs together of Christ -- if, indeed, we suffer together, that we may also be glorified together.

    Another result of an effectual and forever Justification is that we are heirs and joint heirs with Christ. We also will be glorified together with Christ. According to Charles, Augustine, Aquinas, and Papists, these Glorified heirs and children can lose or repudiate their effective and forever Justification and end up in hell.


    23 And not only [so], but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;

    Do those in hell who were effective and forever Justified and received the first fruits of the Spirit in the sacrament of water baptism “ groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body”?


    26 And, in like manner also, the Spirit doth help our weaknesses; for, what we may pray for, as it behoveth [us], we have not known, but the Spirit himself doth make intercession for us with groanings unutterable,

    Do those in hell who were effectively and forever justified have the Spirit help their weaknesses and make intercession with groanings utterable?


    27 and He who is searching the hearts hath known what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because according to God he doth intercede for saints.

    Does God intercede for the Justified definitely effective and forever” Saints who end up in hell?

    29 because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;

    30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.


    Those whom God foreknew and fore-appointed will be conformed to the image of His Son. Also they will be called, and justified (declared righteousness), and Glorified. This is the message of Paul. This is what a true effective and forever justification will accomplish. Charles, Augustine, Aquinas, Papists and Lutherans in teaching a loss or repudiation of justification absolutely deny it’s efficacy.

    Charles does not know the meaning of efficacy!



    31 What, then, shall we say unto these things? if God [is] for us, who [is] against us?

    32 He who indeed His own Son did not spare, but for us all did deliver him up, how shall He not also with him the all things grant to us?

    33 Who shall lay a charge against the choice ones of God? God [is] He that is declaring righteous,

    34 who [is] he that is condemning? Christ [is] He that died, yea, rather also, was raised up; who is also on the right hand of God -- who also doth intercede for us.

    35 Who shall separate us from the love of the Christ? tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    36 (according as it hath been written -- `For Thy sake we are put to death all the day long, we were reckoned as sheep of slaughter,')

    Again the cause which is Christ and the effect/result which is faith. You will always notice in Paul’s soteriology the unbreakable connection of cause (Christ) and effect (faith).


    37 but in all these we more than conquer, through him who loved us;
    38 for I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor messengers, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present,

    39 nor things about to be, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, that [is] in Christ Jesus our Lord.



    Lets’ summarize what a effective and forever justification accomplishes in the above verses.

    1. God is for us. The father loved us (Election) The Son died for us (Justification of the elect). The Holy Spirit regenerates us the Elect. One God, One purpose, One result. Glorification!

    But not according to Charles, Augustine, Aquinas, Papists and Lutherans. The Holy Spirit works against the purposes of the Father and the Son by not sealing all those who were loved by the Father and the Son. For they can end up in hell. What stupidity!

    2.No charges against us for He declares us Righteous.

    But not according to heretics. For some can be in Hell.

    3. Christ at the right hand of God intercedes for us.

    Those in hell have no intercessor. But they were justified effective and forever according to Charles.

    4. We more than conquer through Christ that loved us.

    But according to Charles, Christ loved and died an effective and forever justification for those in hell. How are they then conquerors?

    5. Nothing can separate us from the love of God.

    But not according to Charles, Augustine, Aquinas, Papists, and Lutherans. Charles states that God loves all men and Christ effectively and forever Justified them. But some how they can end up in hell.

    Can you now see how unregenerate men mangle and distort the Pauline Gospel of salvation.

    These blind guides have no clue at all! They profess to be wise and are made fools in God’s site.



    Let’s now look at the statements from our Lord Jesus Christ.



    John 4

    13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Every one that drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

    In context literal well water.

    14 but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up unto eternal life.

    The Holy Spirit in Scripture is many times referred to life giving water. In this context, those that are born of the Holy Spirit will drink of this water and have Eternal life. But not according to Charles, Augustine, Aquinas, Papists and Lutherans. For these who have become regenerated by the Holy Spirit can be in hell. No eternal life for them.



    24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

    Since Charles, Augustine, Aquinas, Papists and Lutherans, have no good news (Gospel) they cannot worship God in Spirit and Truth. They would rather worship a flour and water idol called the Eucharist. These misguided souls worship God with lit candle, pictures, icons, stained glass windows, incense, bells, chanting, man made liturgical practices, and the like. They must! Because God has blinded them from the truth.
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    John 5

    21 For as the Father raiseth the dead and giveth them life, even so the Son also giveth life to whom he will.


    That’s efficacy Charles. Christ gives Life to whom he wills. Not all men in the effective and forever justification of the death of Christ.



    John 6

    35 Jesus said unto them. I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.


    Jesus is the bread and living water Charles. Coming and believing is the way we shall not hunger or thirst. Any reference to eating the flesh and drinking the blood is just another metaphoric way of saying coming and believing. That is what honest exegesis will teach. Not your brand of Augustinian mysticism where you consecrate some piece of flour and water and grape juice and think you are eating and drinking Christ. You are a Pagan Chuck!!!



    37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


    Read the text Charles without Augustine in your brain. Try to at least think outside the box.


    39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.


    Now according to Charles he believes that God loves all men and Christ provided an effective and forever justification. So according to the above two verses Charles, you must (if your honest with the text) conclude that none would be lost, and all would be resurrected unto eternal life.But you don’t believe that do you? So the “all” in verse 37 must be limited. And you don’t believe that either. Can you see your confusion? I doubt it!


    44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

    Charles, if the father loved all men, and Christ provided an effective and forever justification for all men as you believe? Then why does not God draw and raise all men up at the last day? Try a little to be honest here with the text.



    48 I am the bread of life.


    49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.


    50 This is the bread which cometh down out of heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.


    51 I am the living bread which came down out of heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: yea and the bread which I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world.


    52 The Jews therefore strove one with another, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?


    53 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves.


    54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


    55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.


    56 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me, and I in him.


    57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he that eateth me, he also shall live because of me.

    58 This is the bread which came down out of heaven: not as the fathers ate, and died; he that eateth this bread shall live for ever.



    Now Charles, just a little lesson in how to properly exegete a passage that contains metaphorical language. Please refer back to verse 35.



    Jesus was speaking to Jews (verse 41) read it in your bible.

    Jesus then repeated in 48 that he was the bread of life. In 49 He stated that their fathers ate manna and died. Please keep this in mind. Throw out Augustine for a minute. So what Jesus was really saying that eating this literal physical manna could not effect eternal life.”and they died.”

    Now since this manna came down from heaven as a type and shadow of the real life giving manna which is Christ, Jesus is saying to them they must eat Him. In verse 52 they were troubled at that statement because they took Christ’s words as literal physical. In another words, the Jews thought that Jesus was saying for them to cannibalize Him.

    Jesus knowing their dilemma continued to press hard upon them in verse 53. Then He says in verse 54 that to eat His flesh and Drink His blood they will be raised at the last day.

    In verse 55 He reinforce the idea of His flesh and blood. Are you with me? In verse 56 Christ says that by eating His flesh and drinking His blood they will abide in Him. In verse 57 He says the Father lives, He (Jesus) lives, and all those who eat Him will live. Live just like the Father and the Son.

    In verse 58 the guarantee of eternal life is promised. Now think here for a moment Charles.

    The Father lives eternally right? The Son lives eternally right? And those who eat Him will live eternally right? The context and verse demand this conclusion.

    But you oh fool, according to your sacrament of the Eucharist, eat Christ every time you partake of the bread and wine right? Then how can those Papists and Lutherans who partake of the sacrament of the Eucharist die and go to hell if Christ promised eternal life to those who eat His flesh and drink His blood?

    Where is the effective and forever justification in your sacrament? Is not the Body and Blood (atonement) Justification?



    Even if your superstitious sacraments were true, they still are like the manna in the wilderness.
    and they died.”



    John 8


    36 If therefore the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
    We have already in Romans showed how Justification freed us. Paul knew this, for He was taught by Christ. If Justification is effective and forever then are those who lose or repudiate their justification free indeed in Hell Charles?



    John 10

    11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep.
    Charles, Christ laid down His life( effective and forever justification) for all men? Or for the sheep? Charles teaches all men and defies Christ’s own words. Then defies Christ’s own words by stating Jesus can lose some to hell. Charles you are a defiant heretic!



    14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me,

    15 even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

    16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.

    17 Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.


    Now Charles, again try to be honest with yourself and the verses and context of John 10.

    Did Christ really die an ( effective and forever justification) for all men?



    26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.

    A startling statement from Christ which asserts that all men are not sheep. Therefore Christ did not die an ( effective and forever justification) for all men?

    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.



    But Charles again contradicts Christ’s own words in teaching that they can perish.

    29 My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

    Christ will lose none Charles for whom He Justified effective and forever.



    What does efficacy mean?

    1.Capacity or power to produce a desired effect

    2 Ability to produce a desired amount of a desired effect

    3.Marked by qualities giving the power to produce an intended effect

    4 Producing or capable of producing an intended result or having a striking effect;


    Christ fits the bill for all these brief definition. He is the cause and Eternal Life is the ultimate effect.

    Now let’s look at Charles response to my question.



    Here is my original question:

    If your answer is #3, then how can Christ's death be effective if He lost some of those for whom He had died for? My #3 question was 3. For all who are and will be in Heaven and Hell?



    Now here is Charles response:

    Charles: There is no deficiency in Christ's death.

    I agree. But we are discussing efficacy not deficiency. How can we ever have dialogue with a person who does not even understand the English language?

    Charles :If I give food to a homeless person and the homeless person either doesn't believe it is really food or doesn't think he needs food that doesn't make it not food and doesn't mean that there was a deficiency in the food.

    Charles you mean “offer” not “give” A man can reject an offer. But after he receives it then it is truly given. But Christ does not offer salvation he gives it efficaciously. That is why the elect who are Justified will never fall from Grace. But you deny this, thus denying Christ and the scriptures.



    You will notice Chuck changes the premise and context of my question which deals with efficacy to one of deficiency. Again building a straw man. Am I the only one to see this?

    There are numerous brothers and others on this forum who have said the same thing to Charles.

    But Charles in his stubbornness and rebellion against the Gospel has been hardened by God thus being able to see clearly.



    This is efficacy Charles.



    Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

    He begins the work and finishes the work.

    He work in us the will and desire to do all good pleasure.

    Christ is the Alpha and the Omega.

    Once Justified always Justified and for eternity. Those in hell were never Justified, for God hates them and Christ did not die for them.



    In conclusion Charles, I truly believe you are confused, lost, and a plain religious fool. You are unable to spiritually discern and exegete scripture for you are dead in your sins for lack of the Gospel.

    You are stubborn to say the least. Most who argue on this forum and do not believe the true Gospel of Christ, go away. But you continue to fool yourself in thinking you are wise and intelligent You accuse us of faulty logic, reason, and eisegesis . But you have not made one sound exegetical argument from scripture.


    You continue to kick against the pricks like the Pharisees in Christ days on earth. You, Augustine, Aquinas, Papists, and Lutherans, all promulgate, mysticism, and clearly a false Gospel. And you all claim to know the truth.



    You are like the little boy who attends a party and makes a fool out of himself because he makes no sense. And when no one wants to be around him anymore or even talk or listen to him because of his foolishness, they convey subtle hints that he is not wanted. But the little boy is so absorbed within himself and his ego, he is blind to the hints. Finally the other folks at the party plainly say to him GO AWAY!



    Read my lips Charles. As a true minister of the Gospel, you are offensive to Christ and His true body. Your blatant attacks against our Sovereign God and the Gospel of Christ are coming to a close. Bryan (whammer) knows were he stands for his denial of the trinity. And I hope you know were you stand for your denial of the Gospel with all it's implications. You and Whammer are heretics in my book.



    Are these harsh rebukes. You bet they are!! “have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth”

    It is better to receive harsh criticism and rebukes in this life with the hope of repentance, rather than continue to rebel against the truth and forever be in Hell. Apart from “light” for eternity.



    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    St. Nicholas:

    I had written a longer reply in which I quoted you and made direct responses to your various statements. Providentially, several hours ago when I clicked "submit reply" it asked me to sign in and when I did gave me an error message. But I think this is a good thing. I really don't think all of this requires a lengthy reply and I'm sure nobody is going to complain that they didn't get to hear me talk long enough. There are two basic ideas that run throughout your post which are both related to one another. As I understand your argument, it is all based upon this statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by st.nick
    There is never a cause that has no effect, and never an effect that was not caused. This even holds true to our understanding of the will of man. But that is another subject. Remember Charles teaches that the objective death of Christ (Justification which is the cause) is for ALL men (every single human bieng) without distinction effectual. However this cause (Justification) will not have a salvific effect for those who end up in hell. So we have here from Charles a cause (to declare righteous/Justification) with no effect for those in hell. This conclusion from Charles defies ALL scriptural reason, the holy scriptures, and all natural reason. Even highly educated unregenerate men in the sciences and fields of Chemistry, Psychology, Archeology, Biology, Astronomy, Physiology, and so forth, would all contend and defend the principle of Cause and Effect. Even Darwinians conclude that life, earth, galaxy, and universe came into existence (effect) from a cause. Of course their cause (the big bang theory) is patently false, however they are not naive enough to deny the law of cause and effect.
    I never claimed to deny cause and effect (however true they may or may not be) do not function in the way that you are claiming they do. You could pick up just about any textbook on the subject of causality and you would find that what you say above is not true. The following is taken from Epp, Susanna S.: "Discrete Mathematics with Applications, Third Edition", pp 25-26. Brooks/ColeThomson Learning, 2004 and can be read on wikipedia.

    Causes are often distinguished into two types: Necessary and sufficient. [8]
    Necessary causes:
    If x is a necessary cause of y, then the presence of y necessarily implies the presence of x. The presence of x, however, does not imply that y will occur.
    Sufficient causes:
    If x is a sufficient cause of y, then the presence of x necessarily implies the presence of y. However, another cause z may alternatively cause y. Thus the presence of y does not imply the presence of x.
    J. L. Mackie argues that usual talk of "cause," in fact refers to INUS conditions (insufficient and non-redundant parts of unnecessary but sufficient causes). For example, a short circuit as a cause for a house burning down. Consider the collection of events: the short circuit, the proximity of flammable material, and the absence of firefighters. Together these are unnecessary but sufficient to the house's destruction (since many other collections of events certainly could have destroyed the house). Within this collection, the short circuit is an insufficient but non-redundant part (since the short circuit by itself would not have caused the fire, but the fire would not have happened without it, everything else being equal). So, the short circuit is an INUS cause of the house burning down.
    In this case x=objective justification and y=subjective justification. I would argue that x is a necessary cause of y because the presence of subjective justification implies the presence of objective justification. But the presence of objective justification does not necessarily imply that subjective justification will occur.

    You could argue I suppose that x is a sufficient cause of y in which case the presence of objective justification would necessarily imply the presence of subjective justification. However, then another cause could possibly cause subjective justification in that scenario and so you could have subjective justification without objective justification.

    But given what the Scriptures say this would all seem rather silly. We can only have subjective justification because of the presence of the objective justification and nowhere do the Scriptures say that everyone who has objective justification has subjective justification. Just from a strict logical standpoint this wouldn't make any sense because if what you were saying above were true then I would have to have faith and experience subjective justification at the time the objective justification was present which was 2000 years ago and I wasn't born yet.

    More importantly this is contrary to the teachings of Scripture.

    1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have our hope placed on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially believers.

    2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among y o u, who will bring in heresies of destruction, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves;

    Hebrews 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

    Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

    The list above is by no means exhaustive and refers to various people who have been objectively justified but are not subjectively justified.

    I believe that in the interpretations you have provided you have confused objective and subjective justification. Just for one example:

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Nick
    Again the cause which is Christ and the effect/result which is faith. You will always notice in Pauls soteriology the unbreakable connection of cause (Christ) and effect (faith).

    8 happy the man to whom the Lord may not reckon sin.'

    At this point we must address Charles belief. Charles teaches that Christs death atoned for the sins of all of humanity effectively and forever. How can Charles reconcile the above verse for those humans who end up in hell? Are they happy men? Not according to scripture. They should be if according to Charles their sins are atoned for.
    Happy is a rather poor translation but that's not the main problem. You are interpreting verse 8 as if it were speaking of objective justification but let's look at the context of the passage.

    Romans 4:3-8 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."

    The passage is specifically speaking of subjective justification which is grounded in objective justification. Abraham believed God is not an example of objective justification but subjective. It is grounded in the objective fact that God justifies the ungodly. Abraham and David were blessed because they experienced subjective justification. Even if we are sticking with the "happy" translation Joe the Plumber isn't going to happy about his objective justification unless he experiences subjective justification.

    I think this pretty much answers the main thrust of your argument. If there is any main point you believe I have not addressed please make me aware of it. I wouldn't worry too much about me reading everything through the lens of the Augustine. I've read a couple books by him but of all the guys that might take up residence in my brain he's usually not one of them. And really what I am presenting here is built around objectivity which is the exact opposite of mysticism. I believe that all of Scripture should be interpreted through the lens of the objective work of Jesus.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by W.B.
    More importantly this is contrary to the teachings of Scripture.

    1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have our hope placed on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially believers.

    2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among y o u, who will bring in heresies of destruction, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves;

    Hebrews 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

    Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

    The list above is by no means exhaustive and refers to various people who have been objectively justified but are not subjectively justified.

    W.B.:

    The example above is the reason why you lost your way or you simply are trying to be argumentative here. I don't think is merely a "change of mind" or a "conversion" or even, perhaps the fact that you simply "backslid". It is either because you are bitter that you did not find answers in the Calvinistic Reformed propositions, or you simply, going back to my first supposition, lost your way.

    I don't know where in this Forum, but I am sure is there, when perhaps a few years ago, you argued about the verses above THE VERY SAME WAY we all do and explained them in the Calvinistic Reformed way of thinking. Now you sound like many "reformed" people that I encountered in the Grand Rapids and Holland, Michigan, area, who, went to a Charismatic Church and all of a sudden, they simply abhor everything Calvin taught, everything they learned and defended in the Reformed Church just because they "felt" a better "environment" in the Charismatic Church. Substitute "Charismatic Church" by Lutheran Church and, perhaps you are under the same "spell".
    "Who has bewitched you?".

    Let me be conversational here just for the sake of levity: I know a few students of Calvin College. They were all fired up about Calvinism and Hoeksma and all the great Reformed authors. Now that they left College, circa 4 years ago, they found themselves with a heavy load of student loans and cannot, simply cannot, find places in the Reformed Ministry for one reason or another, and, who knows, God did not call them for that type of "position" anyway. They are all bitter! They often would complain to me in my former place of employment of their heavy student loans, and, some of them, who also minored in "music" in Calvin college, are now rock-n-rollers, who could not careless about Christianity, let alone being Reformed. Others went to the other extreme as I said and are "tongue talking" charismatics and will present explanations of the scriptures I present to them, similar to yours here. Believe me, THEY WON'T try to disguise or deny their bitterness against anything that appears to be Reformed. They are seeking for a way out of their identity of Reformed and, again, delved into error.

    I hope and pray is not your case. I pray that God will enlighten you to go back to your "first love".

    I've said enough.

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

  19. #139
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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    I never claimed to deny cause and effect (however true they may or may not be) do not function in the way that you are claiming they do. You could pick up just about any textbook on the subject of causality and you would find that what you say above is not true.
    I am more concerned what God Himself says about Divine Cuasality in the scripture. "Not just about any text on the subject of causality"

    Again Charles, "you strain at the gnat, and swallow the camel" You have not addressed my exegesis of Romans and John. You have not given your exegesis of those passages. You are unable to see Charles!


    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    In this case x=objective justification and y=subjective justification. I would argue that x is a necessary cause of y because the presence of subjective justification implies the presence of objective justification. But the presence of objective justification does not necessarily imply that subjective justification will occur.

    According to the scripture it does. Remember Charles. Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith. He begins the work and then finishes the work. He begins with Objective Justification and Finishes with Subjective Justification which culminates in Glorification. But you could not see that in my thesis.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    But given what the Scriptures say this would all seem rather silly. We can only have subjective justification because of the presence of the objective justification and nowhere do the Scriptures say that everyone who has objective justification has subjective justification.
    Charles you have been exposed as the imposter. Every one for whom Christ died and Justified "will have" subjective justification that's a gaurantee. That is what regeneration and faith is all about. Again you failed like always to counter with your exegesis of Romans 3,4,5,8. And The scriptures in John.


    But all this is rather silly Charles. You are blind, dead, and without ears to hear.


    I think what you need is a break from this forum. Some R & R. You have only been defensive and argumentive. And why should you waste your time with us who constantly use the "devils logic" so with this said young fellow. Have a nice vacation. And may God open your eyes to the gospel.
    Get out that "comfy chair" and pray for God to have mercy upon you.


    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: The extent, way and manner in which God DIRECTLY purposes evil and HINDERS the go

    For the record, I just wanted to state that contrary to what might have been alleged of me, I NEVER stated that EVERY OT use of 'wicked' refers to 'reprobate' or EVERY OT use of 'righteous' refers to 'elect'.

    I have explained my position on this issue; I just wanted to reinforce to all that anyone claiming that I made the equation above is entirely misrepresenting my stand.

    Bro. Bob
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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