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Thread: Our Unreasonable Faith

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    Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    I am saying the same thing about both. When Jesus says "I am the door" He saying that He really is the door. When He says, "This is my body," He's really saying "This is my body."
    This is ridiculous. As it has been shown already by TZ and Milt, if we take your line of logic to its end we find a plethora of absurdities. As I asked in a previous post, how can one reason with one who is unreasonable? You do change the rules, you do obfuscate, you do say two things are the same when they are not - it is no wonder you are confusing if you actually believe this drivel that you post through every thread in which you participate. It is obvious to all that you are not here to learn or to be sharpened. Please do the gentlemanly thing, and leave this forum so those of us who are interested in real dialog can get on with that without being interrupted by chasing down your rabbit trails.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Highly Favored
    This is ridiculous. As it has been shown already by TZ and Milt, if we take your line of logic to its end we find a plethora of absurdities.
    I have responded to the statements of TZ and Milt. TZ does not know what a door is and Milt makes the common mistake of confusing subject and object and thinking that I am holding to transubstantiation. I am engaging in real dialog. If you do not wish to dialog with me you can ban me.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    I have responded to the statements of TZ and Milt. TZ does not know what a door is and Milt makes the common mistake of confusing subject and object and thinking that I am holding to transubstantiation. I am engaging in real dialog. If you do not wish to dialog with me you can ban me.
    You have not engaged my latest posts.

    I know exactly what a door is. You are mistaken in asserting that Jesus is the original door and all subsequent doors are a mere representation of Him. This is so ridiculous, it is almost unbelievable. It is almost like the liberal scholars who refuse to recant an obvious blunder they made earlier for the simple reason it is in print. You have asserted this about Christ being the door in such a specific manner that just about everybody who reads your statements sees the folly of such [reasoning ?] but because it has gone out on the internet, you are resistant to taking it back. Now in defending it you insist that Jesus is the prototype door. What nonsense is this.

    Furthermore, the original post that started this entire discussion is so convoluted. You make unanalogous analogies and speculate about what reason means when you have no clue. I am at a loss as to what you are attempting to do on this site save to antagonise others.

    Please set the record staright. And respond to my posts in their entirety. Don't pick and choose what you wish to respond to as all my statements are pertinent. Ignorance is not bliss in scholarly exchange!!

    Regards,
    TZ
    proorismenos.

    "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

    Ephesians 1:5-6.

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    Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    I have responded to the statements of TZ and Milt. TZ does not know what a door is and Milt makes the common mistake of confusing subject and object and thinking that I am holding to transubstantiation. I am engaging in real dialog. If you do not wish to dialog with me you can ban me.
    W.B.:

    Please, for your own sake, admit that you are attempting to defend the un- defensible. You did say what we read about Jesus being the door. I can't just accept someone that once was so brilliant and that now, suddenly, can communicate his thoughts. If that is the truth, probably you are doing the intellectual version of "biting more than you can chew". Now, this thing that is, at least, equivalent to saying that Jesus is "what a door should be", when there is no need trespass the boundary of what Jesus meant: I am the door.

    Please, do not engage in the details of the theme discussion here, do not over explain your point about the door, about the fact that you reject transubstantiation, etc. I not even ask you to review your own posts and reflect on your position. Also, do not claim that you are engaging in dialogue when, in fact, you are condescending to everyone here who still hold to Calvinism and any type of reasoning. Furthermore, say not that you are not altogether throwing reason away and that reason has its place, and the, in a rather self righteous and sanctmonious way, tell us that God cannot be understood because he is incomprehensible, etc. Just take a deep breath, take a nice dark ale, since you really like it and ask yourself if within a few years in time, you would be proud of finding these writings all over the internet and that these writings be related to you. In the process, think about so many other things that you have written here, contrary to all that you now hold as truth, and ask yourself "if I think I was wrong before, what evidence I have today that I am not wrong again. Will I be proud of what I am defending now other than the praise and accolades of a few sycophants?". Think as one who will have to defend your position in the near future in front of some people who can decide your future in the ministry.

    Thanks,

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    Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by GraceAmbassador View Post
    W.B.:

    Please, for your own sake, admit that you are attempting to defend the un- defensible. You did say what we read about Jesus being the door. I can't just accept someone that once was so brilliant and that now, suddenly, can communicate his thoughts. If that is the truth, probably you are doing the intellectual version of "biting more than you can chew". Now, this thing that is, at least, equivalent to saying that Jesus is "what a door should be", when there is no need trespass the boundary of what Jesus meant: I am the door.

    Please, do not engage in the details of the theme discussion here, do not over explain your point about the door, about the fact that you reject transubstantiation, etc. I not even ask you to review your own posts and reflect on your position. Also, do not claim that you are engaging in dialogue when, in fact, you are condescending to everyone here who still hold to Calvinism and any type of reasoning. Furthermore, say not that you are not altogether throwing reason away and that reason has its place, and the, in a rather self righteous and sanctmonious way, tell us that God cannot be understood because he is incomprehensible, etc. Just take a deep breath, take a nice dark ale, since you really like it and ask yourself if within a few years in time, you would be proud of finding these writings all over the internet and that these writings be related to you. In the process, think about so many other things that you have written here, contrary to all that you now hold as truth, and ask yourself "if I think I was wrong before, what evidence I have today that I am not wrong again. Will I be proud of what I am defending now other than the praise and accolades of a few sycophants?". Think as one who will have to defend your position in the near future in front of some people who can decide your future in the ministry.

    Thanks,

    Milt
    Hi Milt,

    I marvel at the "sanctified humanness" I see shine forth from you and again demonstrated here!

    These words are not intended to "flatter" you in any way - please hear me CAREFULLY and ACCURATELY; I am not, honestly, that type of person! NO - these remarks are only offered as a TRUE ASSESSMENT of what I genuinely encounter with you. You do, indeed, have a rare pastoral gift of combining theological understanding with penetrating analysis of human conditions and circumstances!

    Yes, I recognise it as a true gift of God and have been blessed by it!

    Cheers, In Christ Craig
    I believe I am ETERNALLY SECURE based on the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST! My faith is belief In Christ
    apart from works (Romans 4:5).

    "...for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith. Who is it that conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
    (1 John 5:4-5 NRSV)

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    Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig kennedy View Post
    Hi Milt,

    I marvel at the "sanctified humanness" I see shine forth from you and again demonstrated here!

    These words are not intended to "flatter" you in any way - please hear me CAREFULLY and ACCURATELY; I am not, honestly, that type of person! NO - these remarks are only offered as a TRUE ASSESSMENT of what I genuinely encounter with you. You do, indeed, have a rare pastoral gift of combining theological understanding with penetrating analysis of human conditions and circumstances!

    Yes, I recognise it as a true gift of God and have been blessed by it!

    Cheers, In Christ Craig
    Brother, I cannot even find words to thank you! I have a real problem with the managing of the gifts God gave me because I feel so unworthy of them. But when a fellow servant of God directs such words to me, it encourages me to be a "good and faithful servant" in the administration of the talents God has given me! There is no possibility to deem such words as flatter, but, rather, God speaking to me in confirmation of whatever Grace he has bestowed upon me in, out of no merit on my part, to grant me with any gift at all!

    I thank you for your encouragement which came from God! I do not deserve it but I preserve it as in giving Glory to God for such a great "stirring up" of my gift. Your words resemble Paul's words to his spiritual son Timothy: "stir up the gift that is in you".

    Be blessed according to Ephesians 1:3

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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    Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post



    There is a metaphorical meaning inherent in the words themselves? Which words? This? Is? Body? So anywhere we see any of these words in Scripture we can assume it is all metaphor. "God is love" is a metaphor?

    The fact is if we step back from all the debates and so forth and simply look at the type of language being used we don't find a metaphorical context. We don't find all the references to signification that we find in the Book of Revelation. We find legal language. We find the type of language you would find in somebody's will. Jesus says "this IS the New Testament in my blood." A testament is a legal will. It's not the type of place you start waxing poetic.
    Charles, do you know anything about literature? Do you know that just because there is one metaphor in literature doesn't mean they are all metaphors? It all depends upon the context.. obviously when it talks about Jesus being the door.. its saying that in order for one to get to Heaven they must come through Jesus. Thats not literally be next to Jesus and he opens himself up like a door and we come through him. Thats ridiculus. It means salvation is by faith in Jesus than in works. In order to be made right with God and in Heave we must believe in Jesus the Son of God.. Almost every nonChristian even understands this! Your absurd idea comes straight out of crazy land, doesn't make any sense... compare it to all of Scripture and it makes no sense.
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    I am saying the same thing about both. When Jesus says "I am the door" He saying that He really is the door. When He says, "This is my body," He's really saying "This is my body."
    How can bread be Jesus' actual body? His actual body was seen on earth when he walked around, then was resurrected to heaven. Bread is not his actual body. And wine is not His actual blood. The wine doesn't turn into blood when you drink it does it? The bread doesn't turn to a mans body when you eat it??

    See how idiotic your statement is?? lol
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by TZ
    Please set the record staright. And respond to my posts in their entirety. Don't pick and choose what you wish to respond to as all my statements are pertinent. Ignorance is not bliss in scholarly exchange!!
    I'm glad you think that all your statements are pertinent but I disagree. I don't want to waste my own or other people's time by responding to every single little thing that everybody says. I am still convinced that you are mixing up subjects and predicates and reversing words in your head. As long as you continue to do this we cannot have real dialog.

    Quote Originally Posted by TZ
    My problem is not with this but what you want it to mean, that is, Jesus is a real door, just like Jesus is a real piece of bread! Changing the words around only allows you to slip in and out of varying interpretations. It is the Calvinist and not the Lutheran that believes that "Jesus really is the door." But he also knows not to take this literally, though it speaks of a literal truth.
    In one case you have Jesus being the real door and in the other instance you have "this" being the real body of Jesus. But you're switching them around.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Milt
    Just take a deep breath, take a nice dark ale, since you really like it and ask yourself if within a few years in time, you would be proud of finding these writings all over the internet and that these writings be related to you. In the process, think about so many other things that you have written here, contrary to all that you now hold as truth, and ask yourself "if I think I was wrong before, what evidence I have today that I am not wrong again. Will I be proud of what I am defending now other than the praise and accolades of a few sycophants?". Think as one who will have to defend your position in the near future in front of some people who can decide your future in the ministry.
    That's just it, I've lost all confidence in being able to figure it out myself and have instead determined to simply trust in the words of Christ. My confidence no longer resides in my own reasoning but in Christ's words. And I have no interest in pursuing the ministry any longer so that is not a real concern of mine. They would have to chain me up and force me to become a minister like some of the early ministers but I don't believe there is any real danger of that happening to me. I am seriously deficient in some of the qualities that make for a good pastor. I think at this point I could write good sermons and do good theologizing but I'm lacking in so many other areas that my future in the ministry is not a concern. And if what I write here makes them want to kick me out of being treasurer I might purposefully start to write insane things just to make it happen.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Mccoving
    Charles, do you know anything about literature? Do you know that just because there is one metaphor in literature doesn't mean they are all metaphors?
    I absolutely understand that there are different types of literature found in the Scriptures. But in the words of institution what we find is legal language. I also am not convinced that "I am the door" is meant metaphorically. I have Reformed acquaintance who is very well studied in the original languages and theology. I haven't spoken with him for a couple of years. But one of the things he would rant about on occasion was this whole Western concept of anthropomorphic language found in Scripture. He argued quite convincingly that to the Jewish mind when they read things talking about things like the "hand of God" or the "arm of God" they weren't just using metaphors. They understood all these things in a much different way. They viewed the arm of God as being the real arm which could do all things and are arms as sort of weak images of the real arm of God. I think it's actually quite helpful no matter how idiotic you may think it is. Once the ad hominems start I'm usually pretty certain that the arguments aren't very strong. There are a whole lot of people with all kinds of ideas who think that everyone else is an idiot so I'm sorry but you thinking I'm an idiot doesn't change my mind. Lots of atheists think I'm an idiot for believing God exists and consider all arguments for God to be idiotic.

    Quote Originally Posted by mccoving
    How can bread be Jesus' actual body? His actual body was seen on earth when he walked around, then was resurrected to heaven. Bread is not his actual body. And wine is not His actual blood. The wine doesn't turn into blood when you drink it does it? The bread doesn't turn to a mans body when you eat it??

    See how idiotic your statement is?? lol
    Laughing at arguments is also another good sign that the brain has turned off. The post shows that you do not understand my position. I do not believe that the wine turns into blood when I drink it or that the bread turns into Jesus body when I eat it--that would be receptionism. That was a position advocated by some Anglicans and even some Lutherans--but it's all very silly indeed. I believe that Christ's body and blood are received with the bread and the wine plain and simple because Jesus said it. I do not attempt to explain it beyond that. Once again, I do not believe in transubstantiation.

    I do not believe that your argument is idiotic. I believe your argument is both based on a false understanding of what I actually believe and that it is rationailistic. You plug in any variety of Biblical doctrines into the equation and determine that according to the natural man they are idiotic.

    How could Jesus be God? Did Jesus turn into God when people saw Him? God is omnipresent but Jesus physical body while He walked the earth for the most part stayed in a fixed location so how could Jesus be said to be God if Jesus stayed for the most part in a fixed location?

    I could go down the list but in each and every case these are things that we have no business asking and have no business critiquing because we are dealing with GOD.

    During the debates between the Reformed and the Lutherans, the Reformed kept repeating the axiom, "The finite is not capable of the infinite" as one of their major arguments against the Lutheran view of the Lord's Supper. The Lutherans rightly responded that if this were the case then the incarnation could not have happened.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    How could Jesus be God? Did Jesus turn into God when people saw Him? God is omnipresent but Jesus physical body while He walked the earth for the most part stayed in a fixed location so how could Jesus be said to be God if Jesus stayed for the most part in a fixed location?

    I could go down the list but in each and every case these are things that we have no business asking and have no business critiquing because we are dealing with GOD.

    During the debates between the Reformed and the Lutherans, the Reformed kept repeating the axiom, "The finite is not capable of the infinite" as one of their major arguments against the Lutheran view of the Lord's Supper. The Lutherans rightly responded that if this were the case then the incarnation could not have happened.
    Do the Calvinistic Reformed reject any communication of divine attributes to the human nature? For example: Is Christ's blood of finite worth? Is Christ's body a finite atonement? If not, why are some divine attributes communicated to the human nature and others are not? Isn't that illogical?

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    Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    There are a whole lot of people with all kinds of ideas who think that everyone else is an idiot so I'm sorry but you thinking I'm an idiot doesn't change my mind.
    Perhaps you are an idiot (I'm not saying you are). An idiot is someone who never lets the facts get in the way of their own beliefs, would this describe you?

    I believe that Christ's body and blood are received with the bread and the wine plain and simple because Jesus said it. I do not attempt to explain it beyond that. Once again, I do not believe in transubstantiation.
    Why not? Unless of course you are "attempting to explain beyond that"

    I could go down the list but in each and every case these are things that we have no business asking and have no business critiquing because we are dealing with GOD.
    This kind of reasoning leads nowhere. God gave us a brain to reason with, to ask questions with, and to know Him with. At what point does trying to understand God (not ourselves as in Romans 9:20) and asking questions, constitute as critiquing Him?

    How do you you decide when to use your brain?
    When to ask questions?
    How do you know anything if trying to understand God and his word are forbidden? - Oh yeah that's right, you just take it on faith.

    With logic like this, (I mean the lac thereof) it makes me wonder what it is you will believe in 5 years?

    Now that, will be entertainment!
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Wildboar:
    Your mere assertions about me being mixed-up are without a shred of evidence. This is clearly evident to all careful readers here.

    PS.
    I'm still waiting on those scholarly sources. It was a simple request to which your reluctance to oblige speaks louder than the actual statements you have made about the extra-calvinisticum. Assertions, when questioned need documentation and evidence in order to be substantiated. You have produced neither.

    TZ
    proorismenos.

    "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

    Ephesians 1:5-6.

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    Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by gerhard View Post
    Do the Calvinistic Reformed reject any communication of divine attributes to the human nature? For example: Is Christ's blood of finite worth? Is Christ's body a finite atonement? If not, why are some divine attributes communicated to the human nature and others are not? Isn't that illogical?
    gerhard:

    Your question informs us that you are using the communication of idioms incorrectly, as Luther before you. Look at the discussion in Richard Muller's Dictionary of Latin and Greek Theological Terms, p. 72-74. To see the errors played out in a discussion by the Lutheran Jacob Andrae and the Calvinist Theodore Beza, see Jill Raitt, The Colloquy of Montbeliard: Religion and Politics in the Sixteenth Century (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1993), p.114, 121., esp. Though you do well to read the entire discussion and the actual debate as presented by Raitt!

    Reformed thinkers affirm the communicatio idiomatum as understood in concreto (that is, in the concretion of Christ's person in the Hypostatic Union) all predication is of the person never of the natures in abstarction, which is the Lutheran ploy to try to undergird the silly notion that Christ's body is omnipresent. It is the person of Christ that is omnipresent, and that because He is a divine person, not His body. His body is locally present in the heavens till His bodily return. It is in Christ's bodily absence that we commemorate the Lord's death in the supper.

    Yours sincerely.

    Regards,
    TZ
    proorismenos.

    "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

    Ephesians 1:5-6.

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    Arrow Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by proorismenos View Post
    Wildboar:
    Your mere assertions about me being mixed-up are without a shred of evidence. This is clearly evident to all careful readers here.

    PS.
    I'm still waiting on those scholarly sources. It was a simple request to which your reluctance to oblige speaks louder than the actual statements you have made about the extra-calvinisticum. Assertions, when questioned need documentation and evidence in order to be substantiated. You have produced neither.

    TZ
    I think your PS should have been addressed to me. I will try to respond to this post and post #155 later today or tomorrow.

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    Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by gerhard View Post
    I think your PS should have been addressed to me. I will try to respond to this post and post #155 later today or tomorrow.
    gerhard:

    Yes, you are correct. I aimed the PS at the wrong person. Your voices blend so much. You sometimes appear like a tag team.

    Forgive my mistaken direction in making the request, again!!

    TZ
    proorismenos.

    "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

    Ephesians 1:5-6.

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    Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    That's just it, I've lost all confidence in being able to figure it out myself and have instead determined to simply trust in the words of Christ. My confidence no longer resides in my own reasoning but in Christ's words. And I have no interest in pursuing the ministry any longer so that is not a real concern of mine. They would have to chain me up and force me to become a minister like some of the early ministers but I don't believe there is any real danger of that happening to me. I am seriously deficient in some of the qualities that make for a good pastor. I think at this point I could write good sermons and do good theologizing but I'm lacking in so many other areas that my future in the ministry is not a concern. And if what I write here makes them want to kick me out of being treasurer I might purposefully start to write insane things just to make it happen.

    Dear W.B.:

    I have been through the same road. The fool learns with his own experiences; the WISE watches the fool and learns by THEIR mistake and do not repeat it! So, you that are WISE, learn from this FOOL:

    It sounds as if you are going through a period of, spiritual burn out, and/or bitterness, and/or ministerial identity crisis, and probably, as it happened to me, it is all the above.

    I will pray for you and will not condemn you for what you are going through although continue to disagree with you. Disagreement does not hurt and it is not a sin. However, it would be wrong on my part to abandon you and withdraw my praying for you.

    May God enlighten you as He enlightened me when I was going through the same things you describe in the quote above. Let me repeat this: Only the FOOL learns with his own experience; the WISE learns by not repeating the mistakes of the FOOL! Do not repeat my mistakes, I was nothing but a FOOL, and have plenty of vestiges of that foolishness in me yet. Do not despise the gifts that God has given you; do not avoid the company of people who will help you see your mistakes; do not shun hearing things about yourself that are not necessarily pleasant but necessary; continue fervently to seek God's guidance even when the feelings are just to give up and believe that to "start to write insane things" is the way to externalize your anger.

    Be blessed always.

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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    Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    I absolutely understand that there are different types of literature found in the Scriptures. But in the words of institution what we find is legal language. I also am not convinced that "I am the door" is meant metaphorically. I have Reformed acquaintance who is very well studied in the original languages and theology. I haven't spoken with him for a couple of years. But one of the things he would rant about on occasion was this whole Western concept of anthropomorphic language found in Scripture. He argued quite convincingly that to the Jewish mind when they read things talking about things like the "hand of God" or the "arm of God" they weren't just using metaphors. They understood all these things in a much different way. They viewed the arm of God as being the real arm which could do all things and are arms as sort of weak images of the real arm of God. I think it's actually quite helpful no matter how idiotic you may think it is. Once the ad hominems start I'm usually pretty certain that the arguments aren't very strong. There are a whole lot of people with all kinds of ideas who think that everyone else is an idiot so I'm sorry but you thinking I'm an idiot doesn't change my mind. Lots of atheists think I'm an idiot for believing God exists and consider all arguments for God to be idiotic.
    Just so you know I never called you an idiot, I called the statement idiotic. Saying that Jesus is a real door, and its not metaphorical seems awfully odd to me. As the examples I gave its like saying the wine is literally his blood... Jesus is literally a door, just doesn't make sense. Or when they said to cut off your hand if it causes you to sin, that being literal doesn't make sense either. Or gauge our your eye. Theres many sayings in the Bible that isn't literal, that mean something.. are metaphorical or what not. Jesus is like a door, a simile.. Jesus is likened to a door but Jesus isn't a door. Jesus has the same likeness as door in that to get to Heaven one must go through Jesus. But we dont literally stand in front of Jesus and walk through him, its talking about our salvation. Maybe its possible when we arrive in Heaven theres this little space and to get into it Jesus is standing there and he has to turn to the side for us to pass. haha Sorry I just find it a bit funny, not to be rude but to believe that Jesus is literally a door doesn't make sense. There is no other reasoning but Jesus as the door into Heaven as a metaphorical example.. likening Jesus to a door, a right of passage.. etc. They could have said something else besides a door and still gotten the point across. So you can go on believing that Jesus is the literal door into heaven, Im going to go on believing its a metaphorical example, saying that to be made right with God and be in heaven we must believe in Jesus Christ, and not get to heaven by our own works.
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Re: Our Unreasonable Faith

    Jesus is the real door to heaven, without the wood or the measurements. Without this real door, there is no heaven and no Jesus. We can say that Jesus could have used another term, but that is the term that he used to get the exact meaning he wanted to get across. The word had to be "door".

    We are all at different stages in our walk with God. I am not saying that I agree with Charles 100% on this, and I don't need to agree with him either.

    Some folks believe that we should take what is written in the bible and run with it, not looking too deep into the possible meanings. I have been at that stage myself. We need to have child-like faith, realising that whatever knowledge we have of God is given to us by God.

    There was a time when I was struggling with the doctrine of "eternal sonship" of the Lord Jesus Christ. There was a time when I was trying to "work out" what the truth of this issue was. It doesn't take my intellectual reasoning to get to the truth of these issues, but rather seeking God in prayer, and getting spiritual answers to these questions by the Spirit of God. Incidentally, I believe in the eternal sonship of Jesus Christ, but not the way some people define it ie the eternal generation of the Son. I don't want to start a thread on this topic as there is plenty on this subject already.

    The point I am making is that our reasoning has to be by the Spirit of God and nothing else. All other reasoning is confusion, and God is no author of confusion, but of peace.

    Regarding the issue of unreasonable faith, I think the point that Charles is trying to get across is that God's work is so awesome that it goes beyond human reason. Whether the word "unreasonable" should be used is a matter for debate, but I will give Chuck the benefit of the doubt.

    God Bless,

    Kevin.

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