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Thread: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by Forester07 View Post
    Bryan,

    With all due respect. Chuck's first post was never addressed. You just passed it off and not even addressing the same subject. Chuck showed that the supposed contridiction is easily remedied. When I read the four passages I see that Matthew gives a little more information that the other three versions. This is not a contridiction but it is possible that Matthew was privy to more information on the conversation between John and Jesus than the other authors were.

    Maybe you are seeing a contridiction because you want to. Maybe your new system is beginning to drive your interpretation of all other scripture and making you find ways to support your Christological views.

    Maybe I'm just not getting it? Spell out the supposed contridiction clearly to me. I just don't see it.



    We can discuss interpretation of this verse and what it means by saying "to fulfill all righteousness" You should know most of the interpretations. What do you believe it means? Still, what is your point? Are you seeking clarification? Do you have a agenda or are you trying to promote something? Come out and say what you want out of this thread because from my point of view you have ignored all the good responses and answers people have given without sharing what you believe on these verses and subject except that you feel that there is a contridiciton. All here disagree with you. So make your arguement. Prove your case. Your not doing a good job by the useless banter back and forth between everyone.
    Okay, you got your 2 cents worth in too, can you just close this up, I dont want to discuss anything with you or any other mod in this thread. just close it, other than that, the only thing I will do is take the debate if it ever got offered. Other than that, I'm done interacting, I will quietly use the other software.
    Jn 14:23-24, (NASB)
    Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, BUT The Father's Who sent Me.

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Bryan has Requested that I close the thread.

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Although Jimmy closed this thread at Bryan's request, I believe many people still had things to say. So, I am re-opening this thread to give any of those people an opportunity to do so.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlyfavored View Post
    Although Jimmy closed this thread at Bryan's request, I believe many people still had things to say. So, I am re-opening this thread to give any of those people an opportunity to do so.
    I have one thing to say. I am deeply saddened by some of the posts written on this thread, just as I was with the Unitarianism vs The Trinity thread.

    Where is the grace of God in all of this?

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawker View Post
    I have one thing to say. I am deeply saddened by some of the posts written on this thread, just as I was with the Unitarianism vs The Trinity thread.

    Where is the grace of God in all of this?
    We should not be so thinned skinned and take things to personal. I do believe that people should be able to speak what is on their mind with in reason, of coarse. It is good to call things as they are. Living in this world is harder than what goes on on this forum. Life is good.

    Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with those that are His!
    Rom 8:18-21, (NASB), For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer View Post
    Funny, almost every post I have to answer is yours,
    Who says you have to answer? I have not asked a question of you.



    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer View Post
    glad to see you run to Chuck's aid, he needs it I guess.
    My role as facilitator is to give credit when credit is due. Also not to be so biased as to have the audacity to disagree with someone even when they are speaking the truth.



    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer View Post
    Your repeated harrassment in this thread is so unnecessary.
    Bryan, it is of my opinion that you have become angry, miserable, and contentious. But most of all paranoid! Again I will repeat so there is no misunderstanding "IT IS OF MY OPINION"

    If my opinion is way of base, then will other participants please correct me.

    In Love,
    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer View Post
    I looked at Gill's take on these 4 sections, and they dont even look comparative, but there's a problem here and I'd personally get the forum's thoughts on this event.

    In Jn 1:31-33, John didnt even know he was about to baptize the Christ, in any event he knew afterwards because of what he heard from heaven.

    In Mk 1:9-11, it appears about the same, Jesus shows up, gets baptized, same Voice, and off he goes.

    In Lk. 3:21-22 it appears someone almost forgot to get Jesus baptism in the story as you look at verses 19-20, kind of "oh and Jesus got baptized too"

    But its Matthews version that is troubling for a couple reasons, #1 it contradicts John's gospel, unless you say "well John and Jesus knew each other as cousins, but John (who was filled with the Spirit from the womb and leaped for joy when Mary showed up) just didnt know he was the Messiah, but then #2, the problem with that is Matthew is the only one who says that John tried to prevent Jesus from being baptized because he did actually know him and just why he was.
    Problem #3 is this statement,
    Mt 3:15, (WEB), But Jesus, answering, said to him, "Allow it now, for this is the fitting way for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed him.

    So how can we make Matthews version harmonize with the others, and how can John's baptism be a fitting way to fulfill ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS?
    The problem Bryan is having with this is because of not looking at the different Greek words used to speak of knowing or seeing.

    eidon (oida) is the word. And the pluperfect may cause some difficulty. Since it is a past perfect tense which the english has a weird equivalent. It is describing a past event in Johns life, not denoting anything in the present time.


    It means to see.

    to see a) to perceive with the eyes
    b) to perceive by any of the senses
    c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover
    d) to see
    1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
    2) to pay attention, observe
    3) to see about something
    a) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
    4) to inspect, examine
    5) to look at, behold
    e) to experience any state or condition
    f) to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit


    When looking at the word in this way, it becomes clear the translation is the problem and not a contradiction at all.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Whammer:

    It's not as if St. Nicholas and I are usually buddy, buddy and that he comes running to my defense all the time. Generally speaking he disagrees with me and has used some pretty harsh words towards me. So for that reason alone, you should be willing to consider that what I posted did make some sense if even someone who almost always disagrees with me agreed with the basic thrust of what I said. I attempted to address the problems that you were having with the different Gospel writers. I really think I laid out a pretty plausible solution. I didn't consult any commentaries but I'm sure most say something similar to what I wrote when they harmonize the passages. You never responded to my actual construction of events but instead made some comment about how I was sidetracking the thread and about how you can't possibly discuss things with someone who regards James as part of the canon. I don't consider you to be a brother in Christ because of your denial of the Trinity but I do consider you to be a human being created by God and believe you should be treated as one. So I am still willing to discuss this passage if you are up to it. I really don't understand why you would post something like this in a discussion forum if you have no intention of discussing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by whammer
    I believe every one of the 26 books of the NT are God Breathed Scripture, not the book of James. just so there is no other lie about that floating about. Everyone on here knows Chucks tactics, is it that hard to see how many directions this thread has went? Not that Chuck has been the only one.
    I'm assuming you mean 25 and not that there is another book since you don't believe James is inspired. That's fine. I just had an honest question. From your statements throughout the thread it appeared to me that you were starting to doubt the historical reliability of one or more of the Gospels. I didn't accuse you of this but was trying to figure out where you were coming from. So I asked a simple straightforward question. You had previously written:

    Listen guys, I started working on blending the gospels last year, I discovered alot of things that were different, I understand audience relevance and the authors differences. My faith in the NT has grown stronger as a result. It made me work on issues like this without consulting every scholar on the face of the planet, I could mention a bunch of these things I have solved (IMO) and a couple I cant, but as I said since I do not hold a fundementalist viewpoint, I am not shaken.

    I agree that one does not need to understand every single doctrine at 100% completion, I agree that God does give revelation when and if He wants to, I do not hold a "fundementalist" view of scripture, so when I come across things like this, my faith is not shaken........but the contradiction is real and cant be just "dismissed".

    Listen guys, I started working on blending the gospels last year, I discovered alot of things that were different, I understand audience relevance and the authors differences. My faith in the NT has grown stronger as a result. It made me work on issues like this without consulting every scholar on the face of the planet, I could mention a bunch of these things I have solved (IMO) and a couple I cant, but as I said since I do not hold a fundementalist viewpoint, I am not shaken.
    In the second comment you seem to state in a pretty straightforward way that there is a real contradiction between the Gospels. You didn't say there is a paradox (that word everyone hates here) or an apparent contradiction. You said there is a contradiction.

    1. Do you believe there a real contradiction?
    2. If yes then since the Scriptures are God-breathed where does this contradiction come from? (Does God contradict Himself?)

    None of the above is part of some conspiracy or even tactic. I honestly don't understand where you were headed with this thread. Perhaps there is simply a real problem with differences in personalities. I took a social styles class at work and I was placed in the analytical category and I'm pretty sure you would fit into the expressive category. I recently got a co-worker pretty mad at me. She forwarded me an email about a confrontation between a Christian student and an atheist philosopher. The atheist philosopher said that if there were a God there would be no evil and the Christian student said that evil was the absence of God. At the end it said that the Christian student was Albert Einstein. I emailed her back explaining that Albert Einstein wasn't a Christian and didn't even believe in a personal god and that I thought there were better ways of dealing with the issue of evil and wrote at some length about it. She got all upset and said she didn't want a lecture and thought that the message of the email was good even if Albert Einstein never said any of those things.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer View Post
    My questions dont even have anything to do with chronology, they deal with the event itself. Timeliness has nothing to do with this thread Chuck, lets just stick to what the thread is about.
    Interesting thread to say the least... I think this post is where it all went south real fast. Bryan though this may have been your opinion of what was said I too believe that Chucks reponse was valid. He was trying to address your topic, it wasn't off topic, it wasn't being "mean" to other people.. it was his honest answer. I believe that it was a good start to this discussion and if you had let it go.. responded or not would have been ok. But its like your closed off... it seems you wanted to discuss but as soon as Chuck gave his response you shut him up just 'cause you didn't agree with his perspective.

    We all have to remember that this here forum is a place to discuss, we are not always going to agree with peoples responses thats okay, please still let them have their voice. We can learn from "all" things I believe the good and the bad.And I think this thread would have been okay if the maker of it would have been "open" to any reponses dealing with it. But instead it went sour fast... and I think since we are human we're not perfect and sometimes online forums can become "heated". We should try to be more Christ like.. a verse in the Bible I like says, (I just shared this with Dustin the other day)

    1 Peter 4:1 "Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies."

    I really liked that verse alone with being slow to speak... it helps us be careful of the things we say. Bryan if you wanted a good discussion from this thread you should have allowed Chucks repsonse and not gotten so upset over it. Also I think having Chuck here Bryan here LionovJudah here and others who do not agree completely with our theology is a good thing. They help us look at things different to reaffirm our beliefs, I listen sometimes to what they say and think NO WAY! I'll look at the Bible and think, what are they smoking that is not what Gods Word says. (Though Im sure they say the same about my beliefs... lol). My point is.. even though some people here believe in false gospels and have a foundation other than our Lord it doesn't mean we are to be "mean" to them. We are to show love in the things we say even if they are not showing love. It would be nice to see more of it but I think its hard when it comes to discussion forums... no matter which one it is I always see people becoming very passionate and hot headed sometimes, even myself! While others do a very good job of keepin' their cool and being nice.

    But one thing for sure those who do not have Christ as their foundation all other theologies of theirs are going to be tainted with false ideas. It is true that I see that in Bryan... along with others here who do not have the Truth as their foundation, I see how that impacts everything else they say. But still... I can learn because they point me to Gods Word and then thru Gods Word alone does the Spirit of our Lord teach me and reveal His Truths to me and their Lies.

    As far as the Trinity is concerned i find it appaling that any man could say to Jesus Christs face that He is just the "image" of our God and not God Himself. Jesus is the Son of God, Jesus is God... I AM. Its simple... Im saddened by the change with Bryan.. but it is what it is, and we've done what we can.. now he is in the Lords hands.. and God will do as He see's fit,.. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. And I will continue to pray and Hope that the Lord opens His eyes... just like all those who are blind I pray for the blind sheep.

    And about comparing Jesus baptisms in the 4 Gospels my main thought on that when reading is i think its easy for the translation of the Bible to me lost. Meaning the original manuscript I believe is the true words of God and over years as the Bible is translated i think that some things some minor things can be lost. This word for righteousness I think in Matthew may have been one of them... that or what Bob said would be a good example as well. But take into account all 3 GOSPELS had an accurate account that matched up about Jesus' baptisms... 3 exact explanations is better than 1 that seems unsure. And as Kevin said their are NO contradictions in Gods Word, if we seem to think there is one its because we are blinded to the Truth.. and God has yet to reveal why it is that way to us.

    And John Gill speaks of this righteousness being fulfilled as moral righteousness and ceremonial. It was right at the time to be baptized, for Christ to do what was right in His father eyes and in the peoples eyes He was to be baptized.. and he went on to say how the God would baptize with the Holy Spirit with fire. Just because a verse talks about righteousness doesn't mean that it is saying to be made right with God... or anything else contrary to our beliefs. RIghteousness means to adhor to moral principles or to be upright... Christ was doing that which was morally right, doesn't mean it was meant as what our righteousness is.. or that for us to be right with God we MUST be baptized.. or for Jesus to be made righteous or Holy he had to be baptized. HOnestly, Im interested in hearing what you THOUGHT this verse meant Bryan?? Did you think it meant something here like this?

    See when I come across Bible verses that I think is saying something else... like grace is by works not faith.. or that theres a progressive sanctification.. etc I look to other places in Gods Word.. does it line up with the rest of Gods Word or does my thought contradict something. IF I contradict something in the Bible then I usually KNOW its wrong.. if my belief contradicts what all the BIble is talking about verse after verse then I know my way of seeing that ONE VERSE must be wrong.

    its happened before I'll read a verse and think WHO wait a minute.. is it really saying what I think its saying? But then how so.. that'd be a complete lie to what I know to be the Truth. That contradicts other verses in the Bible.. In conclusion, my first thought about what something was saying was wrong... because there are no contradictions in the Bible and if I dont understand something or it seems to imply grace by works or what not, then I know that my interpretation of that verse is wrong because theres no way its saying something that goes against Gods Truth.

    Does that make sense? Our interpretations of verses in the Bible can be wrong... we must see how it measures up with the rest of Scripture. To know if something is true we measure it against Gods Word and the Holy Spirit in us reveals to us the Truth. We have nothing else to measure Gods Word against but itself.
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    One last remark.. not to bring up Nick Heaths phrases to me all the time.. but he was very adament about this and its just so true. This verse here: God is not the author of confusion (1Corinthians 14:33). Gods Word never contradicts itself no paradoxes, God doesnt confuse us because God is logical and all knowing. I really like what Vincent Cheung says on this Im trying to find a couple of quotes now...

    http://www.vincentcheung.com/2005/07...ntain-paradox/
    That article has a couple of good points in it made actually by Gordon Clark though on paradox.

    http://www.aren.org/prison/documents...pologetics.pdf

    "We must realize that God's own nature is logical and non-contradictory. Sound reason
    proceeds naturally from God, and any speech about him or any study of the Scriptures
    must employ reason and the rules of logic to receive and convey ideas in a meaningful
    and coherent manner. Without reason to hold us responsible for our (and the unbeliever's)
    beliefs, apologetics would be impossible, since all our beliefs would be reduced to
    subjective, personal, and non-demonstrable preferences."

    I liked that quote from Cheungs article though its airing more on logic than anything... but its true one could ask themselves is it logical for the Gospels to contradict themselves? Well no.. God is not a god of confusion He wouldn't do that. Then it must be with our understanding that we are in error.

    And heres another quote:
    "
    Van Til embraced the "apparent contradictions" in the Bible. Perhaps this is due to his unbiblical view of logic. Van Til’s deprecation of logic, not the misuse of logic, but logic itself, is well known.6 In chapter 12, Frame concedes that Van Til believes that many of the doctrines of Scripture are "apparently contradictory." Further, they are not able to be resolved before the bar of human reason. Whereas the Bible claims that "God is not the author of confusion" (1 Corinthians 14:33), and that there is nothing which is written in it that we "cannot read or understand" (2 Corinthians 1:13), Van Til even goes so far as to say that "all teaching of Scripture is apparently contradictory" (159), i.e., logically paradoxical.
    Robert Reymond, in defense of a rational Christianity, argues against the irrationality of Van Til when he writes: "If such is the case [that all Christian truth will finally be paradoxical], [then] . . . it condemns at the outset as futile even the attempt at systematic (orderly) theology . . . since it is impossible to reduce to a system irreconcilable paradoxes which steadfastly resist all attempts at harmonious systematization."7 In other words, if Van Til’s view of logic and Scripture is taken to its logical conclusion, there could be no system of Biblical truth. At every point, Van Til’s peculiar views undermine the Bible."
    http://www.vincentcheung.com/2005/07...f-his-thought/


    So just some food for thought on contradictions....
    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. - Wisdom

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    I find it remarkable that someone who says that "Jesus is divine" and still believes something other than the Trinity, may accuse us of being tri-theistic.

    We (I) believe in ONE God in three persons. The Trinity. Anyone who does not believe that Jesus is divine and not in the Trinity, since the Trinity implies Oneness in three persons, who then is polytheistic?

    By the way, THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK or a PROPHETICAL message.

    Bless... oops, Let me keep those.

    Warm hugs!

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by GraceAmbassador View Post
    I find it remarkable that someone who says that "Jesus is divine" and still believes something other than the Trinity, may accuse us of being tri-theistic.

    We (I) believe in ONE God in three persons. The Trinity. Anyone who does not believe that Jesus is divine and not in the Trinity, since the Trinity implies Oneness in three persons, who then is polytheistic?

    By the way, THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK or a PROPHETICAL message.

    Bless... oops, Let me keep those.

    Warm hugs!

    Milt

    I am pushing the issue because I think I was as clear as I wanted in the post above:

    We: believe in God in three persons, Blessed Trinity, thus we are MONOTHEISTIC

    Bryan: Believes that Jesus is Divine, but denies the Trinity and calls us tri-theistic. Jesus, for Bryan, is A GOD apart from the ONENESS of the TRINITY.

    If Jesus is Divine but not part of the ONENESS OF THE TRINITY, then WHO IS POLYTHEISTIC?

    Again, this is not a personal attack and not a PROPHECY...

    I hope I got it this time!

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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