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Thread: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

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    Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    I looked at Gill's take on these 4 sections, and they dont even look comparative, but there's a problem here and I'd personally get the forum's thoughts on this event.

    In Jn 1:31-33, John didnt even know he was about to baptize the Christ, in any event he knew afterwards because of what he heard from heaven.

    In Mk 1:9-11, it appears about the same, Jesus shows up, gets baptized, same Voice, and off he goes.

    In Lk. 3:21-22 it appears someone almost forgot to get Jesus baptism in the story as you look at verses 19-20, kind of "oh and Jesus got baptized too"

    But its Matthews version that is troubling for a couple reasons, #1 it contradicts John's gospel, unless you say "well John and Jesus knew each other as cousins, but John (who was filled with the Spirit from the womb and leaped for joy when Mary showed up) just didnt know he was the Messiah, but then #2, the problem with that is Matthew is the only one who says that John tried to prevent Jesus from being baptized because he did actually know him and just why he was.
    Problem #3 is this statement,
    Mt 3:15, (WEB), But Jesus, answering, said to him, "Allow it now, for this is the fitting way for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed him.

    So how can we make Matthews version harmonize with the others, and how can John's baptism be a fitting way to fulfill ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS?
    Jn 14:23-24, (NASB)
    Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, BUT The Father's Who sent Me.

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer View Post
    But its Matthews version that is troubling for a couple reasons, #1 it contradicts John's gospel, unless you say "well John and Jesus knew each other as cousins
    Bryan, it doesn't matter if something doesn't make sense to me in the bible. If it doesn't make sense to me, then I need to ask God what it means. If I don't get an immediate answer, I need to wait on the Lord.
    The bottom line of what I am saying Bryan is that there is not one single contradiction in the bible taken in context. If we don't understand something, it is because it has not been revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. It is never because there is any contradiction in the bible, because there are none. 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

    but John (who was filled with the Spirit from the womb and leaped for joy when Mary showed up) just didnt know he was the Messiah, but then #2, the problem with that is Matthew is the only one who says that John tried to prevent Jesus from being baptized because he did actually know him and just why he was.
    Problem #3 is this statement,
    Mt 3:15, (WEB), But Jesus, answering, said to him, "Allow it now, for this is the fitting way for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed him.

    So how can we make Matthews version harmonize with the others, and how can John's baptism be a fitting way to fulfill ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS?
    We need to trust God in the harmonisation of scripture, and where we don't understand, we need to ask Him and read other scriptures that can give us answers.

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    I was taught years ago (by the church of my upbringing) that Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness because:

    1. God's law requires one to be baptized.
    2. Some who believe and do good works fail (for whatever reason) to get baptized.
    3. Christ's baptism is therefore IMPUTED to those who don't have the personal righteousness of baptism to their credit.

    Anyway, I'm sure that all know what I think of this teaching now!

    The fulfillment of righteousness refers (in my view) to Christ's public anointing to ministry by the ceremonial application of water, nothing more.

    --Bob
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hawker View Post
    Bryan, it doesn't matter if something doesn't make sense to me in the bible. If it doesn't make sense to me, then I need to ask God what it means. If I don't get an immediate answer, I need to wait on the Lord.
    The bottom line of what I am saying Bryan is that there is not one single contradiction in the bible taken in context. If we don't understand something, it is because it has not been revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. It is never because there is any contradiction in the bible, because there are none. 2 Timothy 3:16-17.


    We need to trust God in the harmonisation of scripture, and where we don't understand, we need to ask Him and read other scriptures that can give us answers.
    You've also got to remember that when Jesus was water baptized, the Paul hadnt written Timothy yet, so that doesnt answer any of this Kev.

    John's version and Matthews are contradictory no matter how you slice it. Matthew is the only one of the 4 that makes this distinction as Jesus is definately known by John, hence his response to Jesus. John's gospel paints a completely different, Mark and Luke are in harmony with John at this point.

    I agree that one does not need to understand every single doctrine at 100% completion, I agree that God does give revelation when and if He wants to, I do not hold a "fundementalist" view of scripture, so when I come across things like this, my faith is not shaken........but the contradiction is real and cant be just "dismissed". Thanks for your response Kev., I just ask you to re-consider what is said in the 2.
    Jn 14:23-24, (NASB)
    Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, BUT The Father's Who sent Me.

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by whammer
    I looked at Gill's take on these 4 sections, and they dont even look comparative, but there's a problem here and I'd personally get the forum's thoughts on this event.

    In Jn 1:31-33, John didnt even know he was about to baptize the Christ, in any event he knew afterwards because of what he heard from heaven.

    In Mk 1:9-11, it appears about the same, Jesus shows up, gets baptized, same Voice, and off he goes.

    In Lk. 3:21-22 it appears someone almost forgot to get Jesus baptism in the story as you look at verses 19-20, kind of "oh and Jesus got baptized too"

    But its Matthews version that is troubling for a couple reasons, #1 it contradicts John's gospel, unless you say "well John and Jesus knew each other as cousins, but John (who was filled with the Spirit from the womb and leaped for joy when Mary showed up) just didnt know he was the Messiah, but then #2, the problem with that is Matthew is the only one who says that John tried to prevent Jesus from being baptized because he did actually know him and just why he was.
    Problem #3 is this statement,
    Mt 3:15, (WEB), But Jesus, answering, said to him, "Allow it now, for this is the fitting way for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed him.

    So how can we make Matthews version harmonize with the others, and how can John's baptism be a fitting way to fulfill ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS?
    This is one of the irritations I have with books that try to arrange the Bible in chronological order. It can serve some use but is no substitute for the books as the appear in their original form. The different Gospel writers are all writing to different audiences with different purposes in mind and only one of them seems at all concerned with chronology. Most of the passages are arranged thematically in order to make the point that the particular Gospel writer is trying to make. If I were writing a paper trying to convince a group of Lutherans about something I would probably arrange it differently than if I were trying to convince a bunch of Baptists about something. The basic content might be the same but arranged differently.

    John 1:19-36 Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?" 20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ." 21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No." 22 Then they said to him, "Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?" 23 He said: "I am 'The voice of one crying in the wilderness: "Make straight the way of the LORD," ' as the prophet Isaiah said." 24 Now those who were sent were from the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, saying, "Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?" 26 John answered them, saying, "I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know. 27 "It is He who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose." 28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing. 29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 "This is He of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.' 31 "I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water." 32 And John bore witness, saying, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 "I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.' 34 "And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God." 35 Again, the next day, John stood with two of his disciples. 36 And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, "Behold the Lamb of God!"

    The passage is not attempting to lay out a chronology of the events of Jesus' baptism. It's presenting us with John the Baptizer who just kept pointing to Christ just as he is represented as doing so in Christian artwork. He keeps pointing to Jesus and saying "Behold the Lamb of God!" That's the point of the passage. The Apostle John is showing how John the Baptizer kept saying that Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world and telling us to look at Jesus in the same way.

    Within the passage John the Baptizer looks back on the baptism of Jesus' as a past event. John the Baptizer says that prior to the time that Jesus came to him for baptism he did not know who the Messiah was personally. He lept in the womb as a baby when the Word was proclaimed through the mouth of the blessed virgin Mary but he probably didn't grow up with Jesus. He was commissioned by God to baptize and told by God that the One on whom the Holy Spirit descended like a dove was the Son of God. So the descent of the Spirit was a confirmation that Jesus was the Son of God for John the Baptizer. In the other Gospel accounts we are given a more complete story of what happened. Apparently the Holy Spirit let John know that Jesus was the Son of God when he saw Jesus approaching. But John the Baptizer is not just trying to relate a chronological story here. He has a point to make and he is trying to convince the Pharisees and others. He's not going to get his Mormon on and appeal to a burning in his bosom as proof that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. He appeals to an outward objective event, not just some feeling he had. There were others there during the baptism of Jesus who would have visually seen the descent of the Holy Spirit.

    So according to the Gospel of John, John the baptizer knew ahead of time that he was supposed to baptize Jesus. I really don't think this is much of a problem when reading Matthew. John was told ahead of time but when confronted with the Son of God Himself I could definitely see why he would wonder why on earth he would be baptizing Him. He recognized that Jesus was far more righteous than himself and really needed no washing of sins at all. But there would be no reason for John the Baptizer to relate this part of the story when he was speaking with the Pharisees. In fact they may have tried to use it against him and ask why if God told him this ahead of time he was so hesitant to baptize Jesus when He came to him.

    There are various interpretations of Matthew 3:15 and it's a very profound statement. Up until now I've just been winging it but for what follows I am greatly indebted to Jeffrey Gibbs excellent commentary on Matthew. Every single word is important. "Allow it" indicates that Jesus baptism is a concession due to His state of humiliation--the sinless Son of God receives the baptism meant for sinners because He shall be the sin bearer. "at this time, now" validates John's earlier eschatological preaching about the reign of heaven and the Coming One. John had spoken of what the Coming One would do on the Last Day (3:11-12), and Jesus' submission to John's baptism is a public affirmation that John's preaching was true. Jesus Baptism "now" is a necessary preparation for what Jesus will do on the Last Day. John the Baptizer did not yet understand how the Coming One will manifest the reign of heaven "now," in the present time, as the humble sin-bearer. "For us" indicates that both John and Jesus were participants. "To fulfill" in this context where Matthew is always pointing to how Jesus is fulfilling Old Testament prophecy carries with it the meaning "to enact or participate in the divine scriptural plan of salvation." God's righteousness will be fulfilled when John baptizes Jesus, and then all people may in faith seek God's reign and His righteousness in Jesus." In the Old Testament God's righteous often has reference to His saving deeds and I believe that is the meaning here. This is "fitting" because it shows perfectly how Jesus "will save his people from their sins. It shows how the reign of heaven will come now in an unexpected way. With John's participation, Jesus will perform "all righteousness," that is, He will enact God's saving deeds for the people by (literally) standing with sinners, taking the place of sinners, receiving from John the baptism that sinners receive. Jesus willing baptism in the Jordan is a sign that points forward. It is a cruciform harbinger, pointing forward to the hidden and unexpected, shockingly weak and vulnerable in-breaking reign of God, to the paradoxical enthronement of the King of the Jews on the cross.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post

    The passage is not attempting to lay out a chronology of the events of Jesus' baptism.
    My questions dont even have anything to do with chronology, they deal with the event itself. Timeliness has nothing to do with this thread Chuck, lets just stick to what the thread is about.
    Jn 14:23-24, (NASB)
    Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, BUT The Father's Who sent Me.

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by whammer
    My questions dont even have anything to do with chronology, they deal with the event itself.
    Your questions are based on your interpretation of when John knew he would baptize Jesus and when John knew that Jesus was the Messiah so it can hardly be said that time has nothing to do with it.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    Your questions are based on your interpretation of when John knew he would baptize Jesus and when John knew that Jesus was the Messiah so it can hardly be said that time has nothing to do with it.
    Alright Chuck, have it your way, but dont sidetrack the thread, if you cant interact in the CLEAR terms, then just bow out of the thread, you're assuming something was in my mind that was not there.
    Jn 14:23-24, (NASB)
    Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, BUT The Father's Who sent Me.

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Charles and Bryan,

    Please! When interacting with others or between yourselves, ask questions of one another that would clarify statements or meanings of words

    It is a good thing to be absolutely shure of ones statement and intent so a response would be appropriate to the salient point of disagreement or agreement.

    Sometimes a communication breakdown occurs when we have different definitions of words and or understaning of those words so as to misunderstand what one is trying to communicate.

    Just trying to help and not be mean here.

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer View Post
    Alright Chuck, have it your way, but dont sidetrack the thread, if you cant interact in the CLEAR terms, then just bow out of the thread, you're assuming something was in my mind that was not there.
    Bryan:

    I am not a moderator but that does not mean that I cannot be moderate in attempting to bring understanding here, but, let's be fair: although you are absolutely correct that your question had nothing do do with time, the question behind the question, the issue you pursued in the question is all related to chronology. That's what W.B. meant. I know that there is a bias, just or unjust against W.B. on the part of most, and even perhaps me here, but his answer, other than the "paradoxical" quote, was very mainstream and totally valid and it eliminates the issue from your proposition of a contradiction in the Gospels.

    In a way, I foresaw that this would be your next step after coming with your theology on the Trinity: You would come up with questions about the authenticity of the N.T. and things of the sort. Whatever it is, W.B.'s answer does eliminate the issue that was the foundation for your assertion that there is a contradiction. The event may have been seen from different perspectives.

    Here is a suggestion: In any commentated Bible, there are charts in the back, just before the Maps, that bring a lot of these type of contradictions. You don't have to dig too deep to find them. But it has all been resolved, either by chronology or perspective and a few others by geography. All those who attempted to make an issue of these so called contradictions, upon deeper research, found them to be no contradictions at all.

    Blessings to you!

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
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    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Thanks Milt. I too am not surprised for Bryan to start pointing out his perceived contradictions in the Gospels and other precious bible books.
    This is my signature.

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by whammer
    You've also got to remember that when Jesus was water baptized, the Paul hadnt written Timothy yet, so that doesnt answer any of this Kev.
    Paul was not writing primarily about future writings but of past writings--probably the Old Testament was in view. But Paul's statement that all Scripture is God-breathed does apply to all of Scripture whether it had been written yet or not. So you are left with a few options:

    1. Paul was correct in what he said and the Gospels are Scripture. Therefore the Gospels are God-breathed.

    2. Paul was incorrect in what he said and Scripture is not God-breathed.

    3. Paul was correct in what he said but one or more of the Gospels is not Scripture.

    So which one is it?
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill View Post
    Thanks Milt. I too am not surprised for Bryan to start pointing out his perceived contradictions in the Gospels and other precious bible books.
    Listen guys, I started working on blending the gospels last year, I discovered alot of things that were different, I understand audience relevance and the authors differences. My faith in the NT has grown stronger as a result. It made me work on issues like this without consulting every scholar on the face of the planet, I could mention a bunch of these things I have solved (IMO) and a couple I cant, but as I said since I do not hold a fundementalist viewpoint, I am not shaken.

    Brandan, you are in constant violation of your own posting policy about ad hominens. But, then again, you must be exempt as here it is again......do you have any proof I have found contradictions in any other book of scripture? Of course not, because it isnt true.

    Bob gave a good answer right from the beginning, he understood the question and answered part of it, I thought bringing things out like this would be enjoyable for a debate forum.

    Milt, Brandan, you guys act like you know and can judge the depths of my heart, what a foolish thing to do. You know what they say about assumptions.
    Jn 14:23-24, (NASB)
    Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, BUT The Father's Who sent Me.

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar View Post
    Paul was not writing primarily about future writings but of past writings--probably the Old Testament was in view. But Paul's statement that all Scripture is God-breathed does apply to all of Scripture whether it had been written yet or not. So you are left with a few options:

    1. Paul was correct in what he said and the Gospels are Scripture. Therefore the Gospels are God-breathed.

    2. Paul was incorrect in what he said and Scripture is not God-breathed.

    3. Paul was correct in what he said but one or more of the Gospels is not Scripture.

    So which one is it?
    You still hold "James" to be Christ centered and high canon, I'm not going to get into meaningless dialogue with you over scripture.
    Jn 14:23-24, (NASB)
    Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, BUT The Father's Who sent Me.

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by GraceAmbassador View Post
    Bryan:


    In a way, I foresaw that this would be your next step after coming with your theology on the Trinity: You would come up with questions about the authenticity of the N.T. and things of the sort. Whatever it is, W.B.'s answer does eliminate the issue that was the foundation for your assertion that there is a contradiction. The event may have been seen from different perspectives.
    Blessings to you!

    Milt
    Blessings to me, what a joke after this shot. Well Prophet Almeida, did Jesus get baptized more than once? All 4 authors speak about one event, what is your own answer to my questions.
    Your assertions about me questioning the authenticity of the NT are false, a lie at the very least. But then many that know me think I have done that because I got rid of James from the NT canon. Oh, and the song of songs in the OT.
    Jn 14:23-24, (NASB)
    Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, BUT The Father's Who sent Me.

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    I was taught years ago (by the church of my upbringing) that Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness because:

    1. God's law requires one to be baptized.
    2. Some who believe and do good works fail (for whatever reason) to get baptized.
    3. Christ's baptism is therefore IMPUTED to those who don't have the personal righteousness of baptism to their credit.

    Anyway, I'm sure that all know what I think of this teaching now!

    The fulfillment of righteousness refers (in my view) to Christ's public anointing to ministry by the ceremonial application of water, nothing more.

    --Bob
    Jn 10:41, (WEB), Many came to him. They said, "John indeed did no sign, but everything that John said about this man is true."

    I agree with your conclusion, and also held to those and other false doctrines of water baptismal necessity, I just wanted to add that I think the fact that Jesus would do this ceremonially is also to lend further credibility to John's prophetic ministerial role as "Elijah to come", kind of a 2 way street I guess you could say.
    Jn 14:23-24, (NASB)
    Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, BUT The Father's Who sent Me.

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by Whammer View Post
    You still hold "James" to be Christ centered and high canon, I'm not going to get into meaningless dialogue with you over scripture.
    You have confessed to us that you don't believe that Jesus is God. From our point of view, and based on your reasoning above, shouldn't anything you say be meaningless dialogue to us?
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlyfavored
    You still hold "James" to be Christ centered and high canon, I'm not going to get into meaningless dialogue with you over scripture.
    You have confessed to us that you don't believe that Jesus is God. From our point of view, and based on your reasoning above, shouldn't anything you say be meaningless dialogue to us?
    Good post Greg! What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
    This is my signature.

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by whammer
    You still hold "James" to be Christ centered and high canon, I'm not going to get into meaningless dialogue with you over scripture.
    I regard the book James as part of the antilegoummena. I do not regard it as being on the same level as the Gospels or the letters of Paul. I do regard it as Scripture which can only be interpreted properly through the lens of the homolegoummena. If you don't regard James as part of Scripture at all that's fine. I'm not going to try to force anyone to hold to James as Scripture. But our differences on the book of James have absolutely nothing to do with the question I asked you. We're not discussing James. We are discussing the Gospels and I don't see why a difference we may have concerning the book James would make it impossible to have dialogue. Do you believe the Gospels to be God-breathed?
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Comparison of Jesus' baptism in the 4 gospels

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    You still hold "James" to be Christ centered and high canon, I'm not going to get into meaningless dialogue with you over scripture.
    I regard the book James as part of the antilegoummena. I do not regard it as being on the same level as the Gospels or the letters of Paul. I do regard it as Scripture which can only be interpreted properly through the lens of the homolegoummena. If you don't regard James as part of Scripture at all that's fine. I'm not going to try to force anyone to hold to James as Scripture. But our differences on the book of James have absolutely nothing to do with the question I asked you. We're not discussing James. We are discussing the Gospels and I don't see why a difference we may have concerning the book James would make it impossible to have dialogue. Do you believe the Gospels to be God-breathed?
    Chuck's position on James used to be my position. Good question.
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