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View Poll Results: Is debating doctrines profitless?

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Thread: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

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    Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    Is debating doctrines is profitless?
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    Recently pointed out to me by another facilitator, on Kevin’s (The Hawker) blog he had deleted all visitor comments on his home page. When looking on his profile his biography reads:
    Quote Originally Posted by THe Hawker
    Having a relationship with God through prayer and meditation of the scriptures has shown me that the need to be debating doctrines is profitless. In my meditation of scripture, some of my deep seated extreme views have been challenged and overturned.
    This got me thinking does debating doctrine seem:
    • Profitless to you?
    • Does the debating of issues here seem harsh?
    • Do you think you are sharpened by the debate here?
    • Do you think that others are edified here?
    • Do you believe that the true "full corn" gospel is the core belief reflected on this forum?
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlyfavored View Post
    Recently pointed out to me by another facilitator, on Kevin’s (The Hawker) blog he had deleted all visitor comments on his home page. When looking on his profile his biography reads: This got me thinking does debating doctrine seem:
    • Profitless to you?
    • Does the debating of issues here seem harsh?
    • Do you think you are sharpened by the debate here?
    • Do you think that others are edified here?
    • Do you believe that the true "full corn" gospel is the core belief reflected on this forum?

    • I don’t think there is a black and white answer. If we are inclined to study to show ourselves approved and through debating doctrine the Holy Spirit shows us the truth of a matter then no, debating doctrine is not profitless. We are called to grow in the Grace AND knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. However, debating and arguing for the sake of debate/argument alone is profitless, at least to me.


    • I don’t think debating the issues themselves are harsh. Truth is truth and to seek truth through this type of avenue can be/is a good thing. At times I think we have all been harsh/unkind in our replies and I think perhaps that is where a ‘forum’ is less than ideal. None of us have attained unto perfection in any part of our lives, including knowledge of the Gospel. Perhaps face to face fellowship would lend itself more to an appearance of Philippians 3:12 or 1 Cor 4:7 and then again maybe not! I think we need to remember that a forum doesn’t replace the ideal ways in which fellowship normally occurs amongst believers.


    • Yes, I have been sharpened through the years but #1 would also still apply.


    • Yes, believers are edified in the Truth, even those that only read but # 1 would also still apply.


    • Yes.

    Eileen~
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

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    Re: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    However, debating and arguing for the sake of debate/argument alone is profitless, at least to me.
    I agree, thanks for your comments Eileen.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    Since this is a "yes" or "no" question, my answer is: NO. Why? 1 Pet 3:15, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; Does this verse refer to doctrines other that the "Gospel"? I believe it does, but then maybe not?
    If we are dealing with reprobates then God will harden them further as we present them with Truth. If they are His Elect, then He will deal with them as He wishes also. Either way, God is glorified.

    What is the definition of "debate"? It means to:
    1. To consider something; deliberate.
    2. To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
    3. To engage in a formal discussion or argument

    I believe when we "debate" doctrines we are presenting someone with our understanding regarding a teaching in Scripture because we love to see the Truth proclaimed and defended. If you're not willing to stand up for what you believe, what does that say about you? Either you're arrogant? Don't really know what you believe or how to defend it? Or you choose what your problem is, you know who you are!
    I don't know, maybe I'm wrong? I don't have to defend myself!
    Col 2:9, (NASB), For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

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    Re: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    I clicked on the wrong one. I do believe that debate is profitable. Will someone change my vote?

    Rom 8:18-21, (NASB), For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

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    Re: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    I agree with Eileen. There are times in my life when debate is profitable to me. I'm at a point in my life where it can be difficult to find any profit for me in a debate - as most of the answers to questions I have had are now settled in my mind. That does not mean I discourage debate - and still encourage debate as it can be very profitable not only to me, but to others. However iI do not have a pressing need to engage in debate at this time. It is a change that has occurred in me only, and I want to be careful not to impose my personal emotions on others.
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    Re: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill View Post
    I agree with Eileen. There are times in my life when debate is profitable to me. I'm at a point in my life where it can be difficult to find any profit for me in a debate - as most of the answers to questions I have had are now settled in my mind. That does not mean I discourage debate - and still encourage debate as it can be very profitable not only to me, but to others. However iI do not have a pressing need to engage in debate at this time. It is a change that has occurred in me only, and I want to be careful not to impose my personal emotions on others.
    Brandan,

    I think that it is a change that has evolved in all of us because each of us is settled in what we believe, especially of the doctrines that are debated here. I think we are called to simply live what we believe, trusting the One who has taught us. Perhaps new questions will come about as we continue to grow in knowledge but for now I appreciate the conferences because they arenít debate over what we are settled in but really good teaching and edification in the Scriptures of those very Truths.

    Eileen~
    "To those who have no works-phobia, I will state that you are not trembling before the gospel" Robert R. Higby

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    Re: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    The irony is Scripture does not show any examples of debates. At least I am unaware of any. The biblical witness shows proclamation. I am not sure how we can use Scripture as a guide for debating. It is either descriptive or prescriptive speaking. Any thoughts?
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    Some might call the conversation between Christ and Pilate a 'debate'. But why worry about it.

    The serious STUDY of scripture to discern gospel doctrine is absolutely essential. When there is exchange of ideas between human beings in the process of study, there is necessarily CONFLICT to work through (whether we are seeking it or not). We have to work through this conflict if the fruit of the Spirit is to prevail. However, this is not the same thing as what the world in general calls 'debate.' In debate the teacher of falsehood can 'win' by practicing the art of deception more skillfully.

    There is no point of debate for the sake of point-scoring or bolstering one's 'skills' in deception. In college, I was taught the art of deception (it is taught in ALL seminaries)--with the justification t'hat if a person has the truth and knows it, there is no harm in practicing the TECHNIQUES involved with deception in order to get people believe what is true and right! Well, the person who is convinced in this manner will end up double the rebel once the technique that was used is exposed.

    The bottom line is--we have to work through significant issues demanded by a clear defense of the gospel and this process involves painful conflict of exchange at times. We can't avoid it.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    Some might call the conversation between Christ and Pilate a 'debate'. But why worry about it.

    The serious STUDY of scripture to discern gospel doctrine is absolutely essential. When there is exchange of ideas between human beings in the process of study, there is necessarily CONFLICT to work through (whether we are seeking it or not). We have to work through this conflict if the fruit of the Spirit is to prevail. However, this is not the same thing as what the world in general calls 'debate.' In debate the teacher of falsehood can 'win' by practicing the art of deception more skillfully.

    There is no point of debate for the sake of point-scoring or bolstering one's 'skills' in deception. In college, I was taught the art of deception (it is taught in ALL seminaries)--with the justification t'hat if a person has the truth and knows it, there is no harm in practicing the TECHNIQUES involved with deception in order to get people believe what is true and right! Well, the person who is convinced in this manner will end up double the rebel once the technique that was used is exposed.

    The bottom line is--we have to work through significant issues demanded by a clear defense of the gospel and this process involves painful conflict of exchange at times. We can't avoid it.
    Also, from the "heated debates" that Jesus had with the Pharisees, we have, probably, the best doctrinal lessons before the Apostolic era. Often, the debaters themselves will not glean from the debate nearly as half of what the hearers (I call them here "lurkers") will learn. Jesus debated the Pharisees; He did not need to learn anything; The NEVER learned anything; but US, oh! We got the benefits.

    Funny that in spite of all the results from Jesus debating the Pharisees, there is no direct command in the Bible for us to DEBATE. Paul even tells Timothy "but you PREACH the word". That after Paul told Timothy about a lot of things that were being taught in those days. He could have said: Go and confront these guys and challenge them for a debate. No, he said PREACH THE WORD. Truth has its own way to penetrate the thickest of all resistances, and when truths are spoken even amid heated exchange of words, believe me, IT WILL BRING RESULTS.

    Ultimately, Paul said that it would be important that the Gospel should be preached "even by contention"... We really believe in that text here, don't we?

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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    Re: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    I believe that debate is more for the benefit of those looking on, not for those in the debate. In a debate, the two sides are attempting to convince the other side with arguments. Very few of those in a debate convert. Debates bring forth truth and expose falsehood. It was James White that brought this out and I concur.

    Goeth forth and debateth!
    Rom 8:18-21, (NASB), For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

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    Re: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    Well, I can tell you that the debates I have been involved in have been VERY beneficial to me. I have been strengthened in my positions by defending against the arguments against them. When you believe something to be true and can effectively counter all arguments against your belief, then your belief is strengthened and all lingering doubt is removed. I do not fear debate. I am willing to debate new arguments. But I don't need to debate the same thing over and over again. Maybe that is why I don't feel like "debating" any more. When a new argument against what I believe arises, I will gladly participate.
    This is my signature.

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    Re: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gill View Post
    Well, I can tell you that the debates I have been involved in have been VERY beneficial to me. I have been strengthened in my positions by defending against the arguments against them. When you believe something to be true and can effectively counter all arguments against your belief, then your belief is strengthened and all lingering doubt is removed. I do not fear debate. I am willing to debate new arguments. But I don't need to debate the same thing over and over again. Maybe that is why I don't feel like "debating" any more. When a new argument against what I believe arises, I will gladly participate.
    Brandan, that's a sheer sign of maturity! I also, as you noticed in my interactions with W.B. prefer not to dispute arguments that I already know that I will not likely change my mind nor the mind of my debate oponent. Sometimes I simply ignore the advice and go for the "counseling" part avoiding lending importance to absurdities. However, I too look for new issues for debate. Issues that I have sometimes that are so amazingly interesting and could enhance my glorification of God that I would hope someone would bring them up. We do over dispute things that are grounded in us, which tends to cheapen our convictions.

    Here is an interesting thing, that, with time, someone should bring about (this is the rough version without any reflection): Paul says that God cannot lie; that He will be faithful even when we are unfaithful. We often affirm here that God has no law that rule Him. Did He choose to be faithful when we are unfaithful, or He made a RULE of His word that RULE him? (again, this is the rough version, just as an example). Many Christians, Godly people, say that God IS RULED by His Word. That He cannot back away from His promise. Isn't that an implied "law" UNDER which God abides? (I repeat, this is without any reflection on my part).

    I believe this would be an issue, that, I think, I repeat I THINK was never discussed here... It is just a suggestion (did I say with no thought process or reflection on my part?).

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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    Re: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    Brandan: I don't need to debate the same thing over and over again.

    YES, agreed!

    In contemplating much of what has happened here at p-net, there has been an awful lot of exchange between contributors about nothing more than the 5-points of Dort versus Amyraldianism, Lutheranism, Arminianism, Augustinianism, and Conditionalism (Federal Vision, etc.). These are all debates that someone can engage on almost any theology message board. The views of each position can be learned by reading the various theological writings of those committed to them. So I don't think there is much profit in going over the same ground here at p-net that has been covered again and again in systematic theologies and the typical denominational controversies.

    Our distinctive witness is in taking on the issues of gospel consequence that others OF ANY PERSUASION are not willing to touch.

    --Bob
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    If I say, "yes" do I contradict myself?


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    Re: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey View Post
    If I say, "yes" do I contradict myself?
    That all depends, would you care to debate the topic?
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    Quote Originally Posted by GraceAmbassador View Post
    Also, from the "heated debates" that Jesus had with the Pharisees, we have, probably, the best doctrinal lessons before the Apostolic era. Often, the debaters themselves will not glean from the debate nearly as half of what the hearers (I call them here "lurkers") will learn. Jesus debated the Pharisees; He did not need to learn anything; The NEVER learned anything; but US, oh! We got the benefits.

    Funny that in spite of all the results from Jesus debating the Pharisees, there is no direct command in the Bible for us to DEBATE. Paul even tells Timothy "but you PREACH the word". That after Paul told Timothy about a lot of things that were being taught in those days. He could have said: Go and confront these guys and challenge them for a debate. No, he said PREACH THE WORD. Truth has its own way to penetrate the thickest of all resistances, and when truths are spoken even amid heated exchange of words, believe me, IT WILL BRING RESULTS.

    Ultimately, Paul said that it would be important that the Gospel should be preached "even by contention"... We really believe in that text here, don't we?

    Milt
    I never looked at the encounters with the Pharisees as debates, but I may be mistaken. Would you consider when paul preached till midnight in troas is was a debate? The word dialegomai can mean reason, dispute, argue.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    GALATIANS 5:22

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    Re: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    Quote Originally Posted by lionovjudah View Post
    I never looked at the encounters with the Pharisees as debates, but I may be mistaken. Would you consider when paul preached till midnight in troas is was a debate? The word dialegomai can mean reason, dispute, argue.
    It could. You're right, judging by the term "debate" as it is today, Jesus' interaction with the Pharisees was more akin to an argument. "Debate" today implies a bona fide desire to "reason out" and the Pharisees only wanted to challenge Jesus. Paul could be debating because, culturally in those days, no one would be speaking without having some type of interaction. However we look at it, it is hard to find the kind of DEBATE we have here in the Bible. Unfortunately DEBATE can mean that we "can choose what to believe" and that is wrong. We either obey God's word or not! There ain't no debate on it.

    Milt
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    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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    Re: Is debating doctrines is profitless?

    For the most part, when someone on the forum presents a dogma, teaching, or doctrine that I disagree with from my understanding of the scriptures, I for one usually try to take my opponents premise and bring it to it's logical conclusion to show the absurdity of that premise. I call that sound reasoning.

    When the Gospel is diminished and tainted with "human effort or free will" as a basis for God's verdict toward the subject as in "a loss or repudiation of salvation" then I believe it is neccessary to discuss (debate) how that is impossible when God is indeed Sovereign in the salvation of his people.

    A true understanding of the Gospel will shatter all false dogma's that have been promulgated over the centuries.

    The main problem I perceive, is that sinful human nature will always rebel against a Sovereign determining God and try to allign with a church or group that are rebels like themselves.

    That is why so many who reject the true witness and proclamation of the Gospel will accuse those of us who are called to defend Christ and the gospel, of always bringing up the same points.

    But how can this be avoided???? We who love Christ and the gospel for wherin we are saved, can never budge on our position or compromise truth for the sake of unity or appeasement.

    Let the discussions (debates) go forth!!

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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