Pristine Grace

View Poll Results: To what extent is the theory of evolutionism owed to free-will philosophy?

Voters
14. You may not vote on this poll
  • There is no real connection.

    5 35.71%
  • There is a loose connection but nothing fundamentally obvious.

    2 14.29%
  • The two are connected inevitably and obviously.

    7 50.00%
Page 1 of 3 1 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 54

Thread: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

  1. #1
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,672
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    74
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    119
    Thanked in
    65 Posts

    Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    This thread will be a discussion of the extent to which the theory of evolutionism (and liberal skepticism in general) is owed to the theology of autonomous man.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    boise
    Posts
    104
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Re: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    I would say that it is all due to the minds of unbelieving God-haters that spew foolishness and what the world calls wisdom. The theory of evolution, free-will philosophy etc... are products of unregenerate minds that are unable to please or love God, and are hostile towards Him according to Romans 8.
    Just my 2 cents worth.
    Col 2:9, (NASB), For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    88
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    This thread will be a discussion of the extent to which the theory of evolutionism (and liberal skepticism in general) is owed to the theology of autonomous man.

    If we are speaking of the liberals who claim to have part with Christ, I would say most I have come across are of a free-will persuasion. The question here would be, is it possible for one to believe life evolved, but at the same time believe it is sovereignly guided by God? There may be some who do believe that.

    If we are speaking of the non-religious, I cannot say all believe in pure free-will. I have seen many claim we are actually determined by our genes. We aren't truly 'free', but are living out our lives according to our programming. However, they would obviously think they are free from God if they don't believe in Him.
    I will cry unto God most high; unto God that performeth all things for me. (Psalm 57:2)

  4. #4
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,672
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    74
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    119
    Thanked in
    65 Posts

    Re: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    trav: The theory of evolution, free-will philosophy etc... are products of unregenerate minds that are unable to please or love God, and are hostile towards Him according to Romans 8.
    Just my 2 cents worth.


    So right! How might we view free-will-ism and evolutionism as integrally connected though? Ben Stein in his documentary EXPELLED states that free-will philosophy supports INTELLIGENT DESIGN philosophy!

    MJ: If we are speaking of the liberals who claim to have part with Christ, I would say most I have come across are of a free-will persuasion.

    Can you list any exceptions? I cannot, in all my 40 years of interaction with religionists.

    The question here would be, is it possible for one to believe life evolved, but at the same time believe it is sovereignly guided by God? There may be some who do believe that.

    There are. But are they real believers in sovereign grace or simply those who affirm the general benevolence of God? That is the question. I do not know of a single true theistic evolutionist who believes in sovereign grace. There is a very logical reason for this that we will discuss here shortly.

    If we are speaking of the non-religious, I cannot say all believe in pure free-will. I have seen many claim we are actually determined by our genes. We aren't truly 'free', but are living out our lives according to our programming. However, they would obviously think they are free from God if they don't believe in Him.

    A belief in 'destiny' or partial determinism falls short of a belief in God's pure sovereignty that ordains ALL things. I'm including in 'free-will' philosophy any teaching that man is the 'master of his fate' to ANY degree, including philosophies of fate ala Plotinus.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    88
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    Ben Stein in his documentary EXPELLED states that free-will philosophy supports INTELLIGENT DESIGN philosophy!
    How so? I haven't yet seen the documentary.

    MJ: If we are speaking of the liberals who claim to have part with Christ, I would say most I have come across are of a free-will persuasion.

    Can you list any exceptions? I cannot, in all my 40 years of interaction with religionists.
    I don't know personally of any exceptions, but does it seem that far out there to think someone who believes in true sovereign grace might at some point wonder if the earth really is older than six to ten thousand years?

    There are. But are they real believers in sovereign grace or simply those who affirm the general benevolence of God? That is the question. I do not know of a single true theistic evolutionist who believes in sovereign grace. There is a very logical reason for this that we will discuss here shortly.
    I'm very interested to hear the reason. As for sovereign grace, there are indeed people like many mainstream Calvinists who claim God is sovereign but deny it at every turn in their various doctrines. That wouldn't be the same thing as absolute sovereignty, no.

    A belief in 'destiny' or partial determinism falls short of a belief in God's pure sovereignty that ordains ALL things.
    Agreed. Although, I do find it interesting that people say science confirms we are basically selfish, and programmed to be so by nature...
    I will cry unto God most high; unto God that performeth all things for me. (Psalm 57:2)

  6. #6
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,672
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    74
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    119
    Thanked in
    65 Posts

    Re: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    MJ: I don't know personally of any exceptions, but does it seem that far out there to think someone who believes in true sovereign grace might at some point wonder if the earth really is older than six to ten thousand years?

    The only issue we are addressing here is evolutionism, not issues like the young vs. old age of the earth or the six-24 hour day creation view versus some other. Those might be important discussions but right now I want to focus strictly on evolutionism and its alternative:

    Evolutionism: The view that man in his physical nature evolved from a lesser form of biological life (primate).

    Alternative: The view that man was created wholistically by God, as a living soul, in both spirit and body (the material aspect of man is God's direct creation).

    The Stein documentary focuses on man having dignity only if he has free will and belief in this dignity is consistent only with the theory of intelligent design.

    I agree with you that some scientists have affirmed man is basically selfish and that this is programmed. Of course, they would attribute such selfishness to the genetic code (a strictly biological phenomenon).

    --Bob
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    OR
    Posts
    1,064
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    The best explanation of evolution I have ever seen or heard was from an episode of 'South Park'. Those who are interested can find it easily on the internet.


  8. #8
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,672
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    74
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    119
    Thanked in
    65 Posts

    Re: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    Does anyone have an evaluation of why the doctrine of autonomous man logically favors Darwinian evolutionism (whether theistic or atheistic), while the doctrine of sovereign grace favors direct creationism?
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  9. #9
    Moderator Rlhuckle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Lockhart, tx
    Posts
    661
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    Does anyone have an evaluation of why the doctrine of autonomous man logically favors Darwinian evolutionism (whether theistic or atheistic), while the doctrine of sovereign grace favors direct creationism?
    Darwinianism logically ends with man actually evolving into god(s)---ever watch Stargate (the ancients to which Danny Jackson "evolved" into); Star Trek (Vger, Q, Tremayne and ...who was the doc's girlfriend on Voyager who evolved?....); and Star Wars (it's all in the force...from both sides now..."trust your feelings, Luke"...).

    Either God gets all the glory or man does. "Autonomous" man always considers himself a god--even if he cannot/does not/will not admit it to himself.

    Autonomous man MUST resort to "consensus of opinion" to determine "knowledge" and even then "knowledge" is only ASSUMED as there is NO objective basis (even though empiricism is always promoted as the only objective basis) to determine (know) truth in that system.

    Pro 11:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

    Isn't it interesting that "autonomous man" IS "fallen" but finds the illusion of safety in consensus of opinion?

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Holland, Michigan
    Posts
    1,835
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    Does anyone have an evaluation of why the doctrine of autonomous man logically favors Darwinian evolutionism (whether theistic or atheistic), while the doctrine of sovereign grace favors direct creationism?
    Bob:

    The Satellite Dish packages that contain a number of Christian (if we call it so) stations have Saturday morning shows where Creationist Scientists bring their evidence against "The THEORY" of Evolution, which is ONLY a theory. I watch in awe of how little knowledge I have of the issue... until... they start with their claims that are akin to evangelicalism and that's when I turn them off. No one is perfect or absolutely right on every issue and I DON'T SEE any correlation between, or among, one being a "creationist" and believing the Sovereignty of God. The closest we get to this is that, as far as I know, most of these Creationist Scientists are, by origin, Presbyterians, which is, supposedly, a Reformed denomination which glorifies the Sovereignty of God. Other than this one aspect, I see nothing that indicates above and beyond doubt that ALL "creationists" are adherents to the teaching of the Sovereignty of God in juxtaposition and/or opposition to teaching "free will" and the "autonomy" of men.

    I hope this answers your question. I wrote an article and published in my Web Site about the fact that it behooves us to believe the Sovereignty of God against our autonomy but even I can't find it... I hope someone has it. But it addresses the issue as to "whether we like the fleeting whim of our will or to be fully LED by the PERFECT WILL OF GOD". I'd rather be God's robot that my own fool!

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    OR
    Posts
    1,064
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    There are some who believe God 'created' for six, twenty four hour periods then stopped creating. Essentially God pushed the first domino and the rest fall on their own. This allows the existence of free-will and random events without purpose to exist alongside the existence of God. Which is actually Deism and to some goes into Open-Theism.

    I believe God still creates to this day, He creates every soul and determines the depravity of each soul and uses each of those souls for His glory. He also causes every movement of every atom for a purpose.

    So free-will favors Darwinian evolutionism because random chance or the whims of men are the cause of all events. Sovereign grace favors creationism because it attributes the cause and origin of everything to a Sovereign God.


  12. #12
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,672
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    74
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    119
    Thanked in
    65 Posts

    Re: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    Milt: Creationist Scientists bring their evidence against "The THEORY" of Evolution, which is ONLY a theory. I watch in awe of how little knowledge I have of the issue... until... they start with their claims that are akin to evangelicalism and that's when I turn them off. No one is perfect or absolutely right on every issue and I DON'T SEE any correlation between, or among, one being a "creationist" and believing the Sovereignty of God. The closest we get to this is that, as far as I know, most of these Creationist Scientists are, by origin, Presbyterians, which is, supposedly, a Reformed denomination which glorifies the Sovereignty of God. Other than this one aspect, I see nothing that indicates above and beyond doubt that ALL "creationists" are adherents to the teaching of the Sovereignty of God in juxtaposition and/or opposition to teaching "free will" and the "autonomy" of men.

    There is a large interest in and support of 'creation science' in both predestinarian and free-will 'fraternities' who espouse a high view of scripture in general; on that point I think we all can agree.

    What we have here is the classic case of two sets of overlapping circles with a common area of interest. The predestinarians have a common interest with the creationists; the 'conservative' free-willers also have a common interest with the creationists. This is because both believe in a high view of scripture, though the free-willers are trying to use scripture to deny the Jesus of God's revelation.

    I fully believe and support the notion that free-will philosophy ULTIMATELY leads to skepticism and a denial of God's direct providence in all things. However, not all persons who doggedly hold to free-will take their views to the logical conclusion IN THIS LIFE. Their life is cut short before they live out the fruit of their denial of God's sovereignty. These persons will finally curse God in the judgment and go to damnation once they are confronted with the truth of sovereign election that they invincibly hate. But ALL liberal skeptics in all current earthly fraternities who presently celebrate their hatred of the Christ of God's revelation HAVE lived out the fruit of their denial of God's sovereignty in this life. None of these are true predestinarians in any measure, though they might claim to support some syncretistic and freak notion of 'fate'. And all of these persons are evolutionists, whether of the thiestic or athiestic variety.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    OR
    Posts
    1,064
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    For the most part I agree with Bob, however, creation science or at least 'Intelligent Design' (ID) is gaining popularity in some scientific circles. There are a few ID's that do not have a high view of scripture who have come to their conclusions based on logic, reason, honesty and awe at the complexity of life., Michael Behe is one of them.

    I used to spent a lot of time in Evidential Apologetics and it was then that I really began to understand that indeed "the invisible attributes of God have been clearly seen through that which has been made." There is no excuse for any man or woman to behold the world and yet think it all came about by chance, even African bushman know that there is an Intelligent Designer (even though they get mad at him for giving them a coke bottle and causing strife in the tribe).

    It's almost comedic because in some pretty high academic circles 'Aliens' are becoming more and more popular as a cause for life on Earth. That still doesn't answer the main question though does it?


  14. #14
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,672
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    74
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    119
    Thanked in
    65 Posts

    Re: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    Michael,

    Your expression 'creation science or AT LEAST intelligent design' is important; the two are not one and the same. Intelligent design only acknowledges that the extremely complex reality of the created order demands that someone greater than ourselves must have brought it all into being--where there is DESIGN there must have been a DESIGNER. Such an admission does not attempt to confess who God is, what He requires, or what He has done in history. But logically, creation science in and of itself does not automatically confess a truthful doctrine of God either!

    I believe creation science is extremely important but am opposed to a 'fundamentalism' that tries to make ALL tenets of the popular creation scientists a definition of Christian orthodoxy simply because they claim to be the final authority on what is truth (in the arena of God's creation of the earth and the heavens).

    Let me throw the next challenge out there at this point. Believing the truth of God's sovereignty to the fullest, how do we refute the assertion that man evolved from primates because of certain genetic similarities documented by scientists? This seems to be the crowning argument that has convinced virtually all evolutionists, both theistic and atheistic. I'm not talking about creation science here (though there are some good arguments there on this subject); I'm referring to the theological basis of what we believe regarding truth.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    boise
    Posts
    104
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Re: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    Let me throw the next challenge out there at this point. Believing the truth of God's sovereignty to the fullest, how do we refute the assertion that man evolved from primates because of certain genetic similarities documented by scientists? This seems to be the crowning argument that has convinced virtually all evolutionists, both theistic and atheistic. I'm not talking about creation science here (though there are some good arguments there on this subject); I'm referring to the theological basis of what we believe regarding truth.

    Bob,
    Based on what we believe regarding God's absolute sovereignty in all things, He created the primates with the genetic makeup that they have, like he did with us. As far as the "genetic similarities" argument that the Evolutionists have as the feather in their cap, in my mind it's another thing that God is using to further harden the reprobate. Just another 2 cents from my spiritually adolescent mind.
    Col 2:9, (NASB), For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

  16. #16
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,672
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    74
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    119
    Thanked in
    65 Posts

    Re: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    Travis: As far as the "genetic similarities" argument that the Evolutionists have as the feather in their cap, in my mind it's another thing that God is using to further harden the reprobate.

    Ah, you have hit the nail on the head! According to the free-will creationists, God would NEVER do this, right? The evolutionary skeptics are very comfortable in their element when the free-will creation scientists assure them that God would never, no matter what, create genetic similarities in genera to send a STRONG DELUSION to those who endlessly covet evidence to deny His sovereign power! But God gives His enemies all the ammunition they need to wage their rhetorical war against Him and draw other reprobates into the chant!
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  17. #17
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,830
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    147
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    93
    Thanked in
    61 Posts

    Re: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    Amen Trav.

    Just because there are genetic similarities between men and animals does not mean men evolved from animals. All it means is God used the same genetic building blocks to create each creature. And He did it in a way that is pure genius.
    This is my signature.

  18. #18
    Moderator Saint Nicholas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    New Castle, PA
    Posts
    711
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    There is a large interest in and support of 'creation science' in both predestinarian and free-will 'fraternities' who espouse a high view of scripture in general; on that point I think we all can agree.

    What we have here is the classic case of two sets of overlapping circles with a common area of interest. The predestinarians have a common interest with the creationists; the 'conservative' free-willers also have a common interest with the creationists. This is because both believe in a high view of scripture, though the free-willers are trying to use scripture to deny the Jesus of God's revelation.
    Good points made Robert!. However let's think about this from another angle.

    The free willers who hold to a direct creation by God while yet denying His sovereignty in ALL THINGS, are no more than shifting the ultimate priority and foundation (which is Christ and the Gospel) to a priority of direct creation.

    In this way, they have made creation rather than the gospel the litmis for christian unity and identity. Also thinking they can appease God while yet denying His gospel, by at least giving God credit for Creation.

    The Gospel of creation. Creation died for us. Creation hung on the cross. Creation bled for us. and so forth. (hyperbole added) Isn' this another Gospel??

    Again, another attempt by true gospel haters and ecumenists to find a common ground and unity to unite in their rebellion against God.

    There will be many creationists in hell !! Get my point!

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Holland, Michigan
    Posts
    1,835
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Nicholas View Post
    Good points made Robert!. However let's think about this from another angle.

    The free willers who hold to a direct creation by God while yet denying His sovereignty in ALL THINGS, are no more than shifting the ultimate priority and foundation (which is Christ and the Gospel) to a priority of direct creation.

    In this way, they have made creation rather than the gospel the litmis for christian unity and identity. Also thinking they can appease God while yet denying His gospel, by at least giving God credit for Creation.

    The Gospel of creation. Creation died for us. Creation hung on the cross. Creation bled for us. and so forth. (hyperbole added) Isn' this another Gospel??

    Again, another attempt by true gospel haters and ecumenists to find a common ground and unity to unite in their rebellion against God.

    There will be many creationists in hell !! Get my point!

    Nicholas
    Saint Nick:

    The ministry Answers in Genesis makes precisely the point that, if you deny CREATIONISM you deny the whole foundation of the Gospel, and, of course, deny CHRIST. They go even so far as to say that if you modify the first three chapters of Genesis, you have no Gospel at all. However, they do not strike me as a group that glorifies the doctrine of the Sovereignty of God as we "wish". Their Web Site is great for defending Creationism, but it has no emphasis on the Sovereignty of God in terms of a foundational doctrine. Actually, last time I heard their president and read their material on the Web (I believe is answersingenesis.com or .org) they appeared to me more of the free will camp.

    Based on this ministry and a few other Creationist ministries I said in my previous post in this thread that you can't tell by one's belief in the whole biblical account of Creation if that belief is co-relative with believing the Sovereignty of God.

    In summary: even those who defend the Creation teaching as the grounds, the foundational support for the Gospel, as you describe above, cannot be affirmed beyond shadow of doubt that they also believe in the Sovereignty of God as we defend here. They will be quick to tell you that without Genesis there is no Gospel, but they will not tell you that God has planned and predestined all things; not even Salvation.

    Thanks,
    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

  20. #20
    Moderator Saint Nicholas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    New Castle, PA
    Posts
    711
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Is Evolutionism the Fruit of Autonomous Man?

    Let us all rejoice! Let the earth quake and tremble! The voice of God has spoken to us once again through His chief Apostle. Let us all take heed to his voice!

    Sadly to say, many who have been subjected and blinded by God will grovel at the Popes feet.

    Myriads of bastards await any utterance from this chief devil as if it were the very voice of God.

    But why?

    This is necessary and ordained (planned) by God to further harden and deceive mankind, while simultaneously bringing His elect to truth and further separation from evil. “Come out from among them”. But in this now syncretistic world of religious ecumenical fervor, these leanings toward Darwin are critical to bring the masses together to yet attempt another rebuilding of “Babel”

    With one voice reprobate mankind will forever shake their fist at God. And this chief devil (the Pope), is giving them plenty of reason, justification, and cause to further seal their doom.

    Theistic evolution is a more subtle and cunning approach/ compromise that can/will be palatable and acceptable to all of reprobate mankind. Atheist and Agnostic alike.



    In Christ,
    Nicholas

    Pope Benedict 'believes in evolution”
    April 2007


    Pope Benedict said he 'would not depend on faith alone'

    Pope Benedict has aired his views on evolution for the first time - and says he partially believes Darwin's theories.
    The Pontiff said science had narrowed the way life's origins are understood and said Christians should take a broader approach to the question.

    However, he did not adopt a strictly scientific view of the origins if life, believing instead that God created life through evolution.

    He said he "would not depend on faith alone to explain the whole picture".

    As well as praising scientific progress, the Pope's views, published in a new book 'Schoepfung unt Evolution' (Creation and Evolution), did not endorse the creationist, or 'intelligent design' view of life's origins.

    Those arguments, proposed mostly by conservative Protestants and derided by scientists, have stoked recurring battles over the teaching of evolution in the US. Some European Christians and Turkish Muslims have recently echoed these views.

    Pope Benedict, a former theology professor, is quoted in the book as saying: "Science has opened up large dimensions of reason...and thus brought us new insights.
    "But in the joy at the extent of its discoveries, it tends to take away from us dimensions of reason that we still need.
    "Its results lead to questions that go beyond its methodical canon and cannot be answered within it."

    "The issue is reclaiming a dimension of reason we have lost," he said, adding that the evolution debate was actually about "the great fundamental questions of philosophy - where man and the world came from and where they are going."

    Speculation about Pope Benedict's views on evolution have been rife ever since a former student and close advisor, Vienna Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn, published an article in 2005 that seemed to align the Church with the 'intelligent design' view.

    Intelligent design argues that some forms of life are too complex to have evolved randomly, as Charles Darwin proposed in his 1859 book The Origin of Species.

    It says a higher intelligence must have done this but does not name it as God.

    Scientists denounce this as a disguised form of creationism, the view that God created the world just as the Bible says.

    US courts have ruled both creationism and Intelligent Design are religious views that cannot be taught in public school science classes there.

    In the book, Benedict defended what is known as 'theistic evolution', the view held by Roman Catholic, Orthodox and mainline Protestant churches, that God created life through evolution and religion and science need not clash over this.

    "I would not depend on faith alone to explain the whole picture," he remarked during the discussion held at the papal summer palace in Castel Gandolfo outside Rome.
    He also denied using a 'God-of-the-gaps' argument that sees divine intervention whenever science cannot explain something.

    "It's not as if I wanted to stuff the dear God into these gaps - he is too great to fit into such gaps," he said in the book that publisher Sankt Ulrich Verlag in Augsburg said would later be translated into other languages.

    Schoenborn, who published his own book on evolution last month, has said he and the German-born Pontiff addressed these issues now because many scientists use Darwin's theory to argue the random nature of evolution negated any role for God.

    That is a philosophical or ideological conclusion not supported by facts, they say, because science cannot prove who or what originally created the universe and life in it.
    "Both popular and scientific texts about evolution often say that 'nature' or 'evolution' has done this or that," Benedict said in the book which included lectures from theologian Schoenborn, two philosophers and a chemistry professor.

    "Just who is this 'nature' or 'evolution' as (an active) subject? It doesn't exist at all!" the Pope said.
    Benedict argued that evolution had a rationality that the theory of purely random selection could not explain.

    "The process itself is rational despite the mistakes and confusion as it goes through a narrow corridor choosing a few positive mutations and using low probability," he said.
    "This...inevitably leads to a question that goes beyond science...where did this rationality come from?"

    Answering his own question, he said it came from the "creative reason" of God.
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

Page 1 of 3 1 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The LORD'S PRAYER of Open Theism
    By ~JM~ in forum Predestinarian Doctrine Archive
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-23-07, 08:16 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •