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Thread: Adam (MCT)

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    Adam (MCT)

    Was Adam perfectly righteous before the fall or did he need Christ's imputed righteousness to be saved? This is one aspect of MCT that I need a little help understanding. Which scriptures do we turn to for better understanding on this issue?

    Thanks.

    j

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    Re: Adam (MCT)

    JM,

    What might be a better question, which we've tackled on the forum before, is "did Adam have a natural proclivity to sin?" I would say yes, in order for him to fulfill God's predestined plan. So in that regard, he was perfect for his job.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: Adam (MCT)

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlyfavored View Post
    JM,

    What might be a better question, which we've tackled on the forum before, is "did Adam have a natural proclivity to sin?" I would say yes, in order for him to fulfill God's predestined plan. So in that regard, he was perfect for his job.

    Hummmm....much to think about. I do believe Adam fell due to a decree from God but never thought of Adam as having a natural proclivity to/for sin. It makes sense, what doesn't make sense is the idea that Adam had, "a positive inclination to obey...." (Richard Bacon)

    jm

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    Re: Adam (MCT)

    Gordon Clark (in "The Biblical Doctrine of Man") also taught that Adam was created with a proclivity to extreme holiness, which is supposed to justify the consequences of his rebellion all the more (considering the severe contrast between his NATURE and his ACT). But Dr. Clark in all of his logical genius (which was quite extensive) never explained to us how extreme holiness in nature can beget eternal sin in act!

    When Paul states: The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. (1 Cor. 15:47,48 NASB) he is equating Adam with all others 'from the earth', i.e., he was the same in nature. Christ was obviously 'of the earth' in a physical sense so Paul is not referring material when contrasting Adam and Christ. He instead refers to the dimension of man's nature that relates to God, i.e., the 'spiritual'.

    It is true that Adam desired to rebel in the specifically forbidden act (transgression of 'law') only when circumstances arose that made the act desirable to him. But those circumstances proved that in his nature he had always loved his wife more than God, the created creature more than the Creator. His state of 'nakedness without shame' at the end of Gen. 2 shows us that he had no knowledge of the ugliness of his true nature until after committing the specific act of disobedience to law.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Adam (MCT)

    This has been very helpful. I'm working on a paper right now and have just been re inspired to continue.

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    Re: Adam (MCT)

    Is the body mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:52 the body purchased by the rigthoueness of Christ? I believe so. I can't see how it's a return to a pre-fall Adamic state.

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    Re: Adam (MCT)

    Quote Originally Posted by ~JM~ View Post
    Is the body mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:52 the body purchased by the rigthoueness of Christ? I believe so. I can't see how it's a return to a pre-fall Adamic state.
    JM, Please elaborate.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: Adam (MCT)

    I'd love to but I'm still working things out. Did Adam have a glorified body? If Adam is after the earthly man then it makes sense we our glorified bodies will be after the heavenly man ( 1 Corinthians 15:38-44 )

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    Re: Adam (MCT)

    Quote Originally Posted by ~JM~ View Post
    Did Adam have a glorified body? If Adam is after the earthly man then it makes sense we our glorified bodies will be after the heavenly man ( 1 Corinthians 15:38-44 )
    Quote Originally Posted by Moses
    Gen 2:7, (NASB), Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

    Gen 2:21-24, (NASB)
    21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.
    22 The Lord God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.
    23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man."
    24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
    Sounds like fleshly bodies to me.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: Adam (MCT)

    Do you believe the "imperishable body" is the same as a pre-fall body that Adam had?

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    Re: Adam (MCT)

    Quote Originally Posted by ~JM~ View Post
    Do you believe the "imperishable body" is the same as a pre-fall body that Adam had?
    If the "imperishable body" you are referring to is the "glorified body" we shall inherit at the Lord's coming and in the New Heaven and Earth, then my answer is NO!

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: Adam (MCT)

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Nicholas View Post
    If the "imperishable body" you are referring to is the "glorified body" we shall inherit at the Lord's coming and in the New Heaven and Earth, then my answer is NO!

    Nicholas
    Yeah, what he said.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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    Re: Adam (MCT)

    Quote Originally Posted by ~JM~ View Post
    Do you believe the "imperishable body" is the same as a pre-fall body that Adam had?
    I would definitely say "no", because Adam had the ability to/and did sin, if the "imperishable" body has the same ability, then we are all screwed.
    Col 2:9, (NASB), For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

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    Re: Adam (MCT)

    The elect shall put on 'immortality' at the final resurrection of the body. There is no evidence that Adam was created immortal (unable to die), in fact, the opposite is true. He was dependent on the tree of life for continued existence. This is why Paul contrasts the 'natural' vs. the 'spiritual' body--the spiritual body is not immaterial but immortal like Christ's in His resurrection.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Adam (MCT)

    Quote Originally Posted by ~JM~ View Post
    Was Adam perfectly righteous before the fall
    No he was not. What most theologians fail to realize/understand is that "righteousness" is more than just perfect obedience to a law or set of laws. "Righteousness" encompasses the whole man in every aspect of his constitutional nature and substance/essence.

    Adam was created with peccability thus disqualifying him from any inherent righteousness that would satisfy God. Adam was able to sin.
    God (Christ) is unable to Sin.

    Only God is perfectly righteous by nature.


    Quote Originally Posted by ~JM~ View Post
    did he need Christ's imputed righteousness to be saved?
    Of course he did. If created man could be by nature or attain through perfect obedience in thoughts and deeds a righteousness equal to God's righteousness, man would be equal to God. That's an impossibility.

    The majority of visible Christian theology has been deluded and intoxicated with the Augustinian view of Adam and the fall. Your very line of questioning proves this point.

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: Adam (MCT)

    I guess the fact that Adam could fall would hint at his imperfection.

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    Re: Adam (MCT)

    Quote Originally Posted by ~JM~ View Post
    I guess the fact that Adam could fall would hint at his imperfection.
    Correct JM. I also might add that his created ability "to sin" is much more than a "hint of imperfection" it is in fact sin. That is what we call a sin nature. By nature Adam was created a sinner. His actions of sin (both inward thought of the heart, and outward disobedience) in Eden only manifested his true identity and need for another Righteousness apart from his own that he never possesed.

    This historical account of Adam was for our (Elect only) benefit as for his.

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: Adam (MCT)

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Nicholas View Post
    Correct JM. I also might add that his created ability "to sin" is much more than a "hint of imperfection" it is in fact sin. That is what we call a sin nature. By nature Adam was created a sinner. His actions of sin (both inward thought of the heart, and outward disobedience) in Eden only manifested his true identity and need for another Righteousness apart from his own that he never possesed.

    This historical account of Adam was for our (Elect only) benefit as for his.

    Nicholas
    I think we should be extra careful when teaching (correctly) that Adam had the "ability to sin" because for many, this implies CHOICE. I have the ability to climb up the roof of the building I am in, but I can choose to do it or not.

    As ST. Nicholas states above, we have to conclude, even if after the fact, that Adam was a sinner, which is the logical conclusion of saying that "he had an inclination to sinning". Thieves rob, liars lie, killers kill, sinners sin. Thieves are not so because they rob, liars are not so because they lie, killers are not so because they kill, sinners are not sinners because they sin. It is the underlying propensity built in them that causes them to ACT THEIR NATURE.

    I hope I am not teaching a new doctrine here...

    Milt
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    Re: Adam (MCT)

    Quote Originally Posted by GraceAmbassador View Post
    I think we should be extra careful when teaching (correctly) that Adam had the "ability to sin" because for many, this implies CHOICE.
    So what? There is nothing wrong with the implication of choice. We have been created as creatures of choice. What is wrong however bro. Milt, is to conclude men have FREE choice. All power and will of choice is enslaved and subject to a priori influence, stimulas, and condition that is impossible for humankind to escape. Therefore the will is enslaved to choose and act according to it's nature, desire and influence whether from external or internal causes. Mankind can only choose from causes and influences that are beyond his control. However men do choose! But not freely.


    Quote Originally Posted by GraceAmbassador View Post
    I have the ability to climb up the roof of the building I am in, but I can choose to do it or not.
    Correct Milt. But answer me this. What current motive, desire, or influence made you decide not to choose to climb up the roof?

    And if the building you are currently in perhaps caught on fire leaving you no other avenue of exit except to climb up the roof to escape harm, would that influence you to CHOOSE differently?

    To conclude dear brother, if some naively equate "ability" with the power of FREE choice, it to their own lack of understanding and discernment.

    Nicholas
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

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    Re: Adam (MCT)

    To conclude dear brother, if some naively equate "ability" with the power of FREE choice, it to their own lack of understanding and discernment.
    I guess that's what I meant...

    We are intrinsically evil, thus choosing according to our depraved nature, and not freely.

    In the end of my post I finalize saying: "It is the underlying propensity built in them that causes them to ACT THEIR NATURE."

    I apologize if I appeared to be disputing what you said in your previous post; that would be sacrilegious

    Milt
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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