Pristine Grace
Page 1 of 5 1 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 86

Thread: Article: James Exposed

  1. #1
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,830
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    147
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    93
    Thanked in
    61 Posts

    Post Article: James Exposed


  2. #2
    Abraham Juliot
    Guest
    Nicholas:
    If good works can be seen (by men) as a bonafide proof of Justification, then we must ask two basic questions. 1. What is the numerical quantity of good works that would prove an individual to be Justified? 2. What degree of substantive quality must these good works possess
    Scripture:
    "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." [Galatians 5:6] "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." [1 John 4:8] "Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things." [1 Corinthians 13:4-7]

    Here are some of the basic assumptions in Nicholas' arguments which at best are assumptions.

    10 Assumptions
    1. John 7:1-13 - it is implied that the scriptures teach that Jesus' physical brethren could never have believed in him. (Does scripture say this anywhere)
    2. Mark 6:1-4 - It is implied that none among Jesus kin could have ever believed in Him. (Notice that Mary, Joseph, Elizabeth, and John the baptist were all regenerate)
    3. Acts 12:17 - It is implied that Peter meant to imply that James was not a brother. (At best this is inferring thoughts which are not addressed in the context)
    4. Acts 15:1 - It is implied that the "certain men which came down from Judea" must have been from James.
    5. Gal 2:12 - It is implied that these "Certain men from James" must have been the same from Acts 15.
    6. Acts 15:18-21 - It is implied that James statements were not in agreement with Peter's and that James did not proclaim gospel truths in His address. (Notice that James refers to Peter's words and affirms them by quoting gospel promises from the scriptures)
    7. Acts 15:18-21 - It is implied that James was using the law unlawfully. (Notice that Paul also quotes the Law (in Eph 6:1-3) when exhorting the church to abstain from sin and Christ does the same in Matthew 5-6 when He directs those who are warranted to pray to God as their Father. The knowledge of sin is given through the law and we are exhorted everywhere in scripture to abstain from youthful lusts (sin). This does not imply that the law is a rule to look to for hope, eternal life, and grace. Only the gospel is the rule of hope, eternal life, and grace by which we are strengthened to walk by Faith in the promises of His grace.) In addition to all this, the letter that was sent to the gentile s was sent by 2 men with Paul and Barnabas (See vs. 25). The scriptures say that Judas and Silas were prophets and after they delivered the epistle the brethren "rejoiced for the consolation."

    "It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." [Acts 15:25-29]

    "So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation. And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them. And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles." [Acts 15:30-33]

    8. Acts 21:20-25 - It is implied that "the James gang tries to trap Paul" here and that Paul was craftily against them. notice that Paul gave them no warning and neither did he warn others of James teaching a false gospel. If Paul considered their words to be anti-gospel, It would be deceptive (not crafty) for paul to act with 4 men as though he agreed with them.

    9. Acts 21:26-30 - It is implied that because James did not appear in Paul's defense, he must have not desired to defend him. (Notice that none of the other apostles are recorded in this seen)

    10. It is implied that Paul considered James to be a false teacher in Galatians 2. Notice that Paul speaks of James as one who "perceived the grace" that was given to Paul. "And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision." [Gal 2:9] Notice that Galatians 2 is dealing with the question "...why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews." James confessed in Acts 21, "As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication."

    Similar exhortations to gentiles can be found elsewhere in scripture:

    "...things offered to idols"
    "But if any man say unto you, this is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof." [1 Co 10:28] "Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols." [Rev 2:20]

    "...from blood, and from strangled"
    "But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." [Gen 9:4]

    "...from fornication"
    "Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body." [1 Co 6:18] "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." [Gal 5:19-21]

  3. #3
    Abraham Juliot
    Guest
    James Defended - The Epistle of Grace in Sufferings

    The Epistle of James - In perfect harmony with our Lord Jesus Christ

    Jas 1:2 - Mat 5:10–12
    Jas 1:4 - Mat 5:48
    Jas 1:5 - Mat 7:7–11
    Jas 1:17 - Mat 7:11
    Jas 1:20 - Mat 5:22
    Jas 1:22 - Mat 7:24–27
    Jas 2:5 - Mat 5:3, 5
    Jas 2:10 - Mat 5:19
    Jas 2:13 - Mat 5:7
    Jas 3:12 - Mat 7:16
    Jas 3:18 - Mat 5:9
    Jas 4:2–3 - Mat 7:7–8
    Jas 4:4 - Mat 6:24
    Jas 4:9–10 - Mat 5:4
    Jas 4:11–12 - Mat 7:1–5
    Jas 4:13–14 - Mat 6:34
    Jas 5:2–5 - Mat 6:19
    Jas 5:10 - Mat 5:12
    Jas 5:12 - Mat 5:33–37

    Understanding Justification in James Chapter 2

    James is exposing the man that says he has faith and shows no works of faith by love which would evidence that he is a true friend of God. James is not teaching that personal assurance of justification is by works, nor is he teaching that we are justified before others by works of the law. Rather, James is teaching "how" a man is justified (declared righteous) by works of faith. Notice the examples of Abraham and Rahab are works from Faith (not law). "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." [Galatians 5:6] It is very important to understand that James is referring to works of faith and not works of the law. "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" [Jas 2:22]

    Notice that James says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." The "how" is important. James is teaching "how" we are justified (declared righteous) in the sight of others. It is by works of faith, and not by faith only. Notice that James says, "...I will shew thee my faith by my works..." and when referring to Abraham he writes "...he was called the Friend of God." We show ourselves to be a true friend of God by works of love (from gospel hope) which come from a heart that has embraced the merciful love of Christ. James is not teaching that the personal assurance of our justification through Christ is by works. In Romans 4, Paul expounds on how we personally find that we are justified freely by God's grace. Personal justification in our own conscience is through faith alone.

    Examples of a dead faith

    "Then believed they his words; they sang his praise. They soon forgat his works; they waited not for his counsel: But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, and tempted God in the desert." [Psalm 106:12]

    "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." [Luke 8:13]

    "Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man." [John 2:23-25]

    "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God." [John 12:42-43]

    Examples of a living faith

    "And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat. And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment. Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner. And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on. There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged. And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head. Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet. My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace." [Luke 7:36-50]

    "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." [Hebrews 11:7]

    "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." [Hebrews 11:8-10]

    "By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. [Hebrews 11:24-28]

    Examples of justification before others by works of faith

    "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." [Matthew 6:14-15]

    "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." [Matthew 12:35-37]

    "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me." [Matthew 25:34-36]

    "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." [1 John 3:10]

    "Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." [1 John 3:13-15]

    "All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness." [1 John 5:17-19]

    Examples of personal justification in the conscience through faith

    "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." [Romans 4:1-8]

    "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us." [Romans 5:1-5]

    "He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." [Galatians 3:5-14]

    10 Promises of Grace - The Hope of Jesus Christ in the epistle of James - Comments by Robert Hawker


    1. "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." [James 1:5]

    "I humbly conceive, that the wisdom here spoken of means CHRIST, and his graces. For CHRIST is the wisdom of GOD, as well as the power of GOD, for salvation to every one that believeth, 1 Corinthians 1:24. And CHRIST is made of GOD to all his people, wisdom as well as righteousness; and sanctification as well as redemption, 1 Corinthians 1:30. And as this verse follows immediately after what the Apostle had said, of taking joy in the exercises of temptation, the direction here of asking GOD for CHRIST and his strength seems to be with an express eye, to those seasons of temptation, And in this sense, this precept, blended, as it is, with so sweet and sure a promise, is uncommonly beautiful and striking. Let him ask CHRIST, for CHRIST is GOD'S gift, and GOD is both engaged by his Covenant promises, and CHRIST by his oneness and interest with his people, to be the strength of his people, and their portion for ever." -Robert Hawker

    2. "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." [James 1:12]

    "One of the sweet offices of CHRIST, the believer finds the blessedness of in seasons of temptation, while enabled by grace, to look up to JESUS, under them. Like the Prophet's servant in the mount, when the LORD opens the eyes to see, we discover more to be with us, than all that are against us. 2 Kings 6:16. To behold JESUS, our Almighty High Priest, looking on, watching the enemy, keeping the feet of his Saints, and causing the wicked to be silent in darkness before him, watering his tried ones every moment, to quench the fiery darts of the enemy; and, while Satan accuseth, CHRIST becomes our Advocate, and Propitiation: Oh! it is blessed to endure, such temptations, when by such temptations, we see CHRIST more immediately coming forth for us; and while Satan storms, JESUS sooths, while the Tempter fawns, the LORD rebukes him, surely all temptations cannot but be blessed which are productive of such gracious effects; and seeing JESUS for us, with us, and putting the foe to flight, we disregard the whole, conscious that the LORD'S strength is made perfect in our weakness; and even in the hottest part of the battle, we cry out with the Prophet: rejoice not against me, O mine enemy; when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me, Micah 7:8." - Robert Hawker

    3. "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." [James 1:17]

    "That CHRIST is the good and perfect gift here spoken of that cometh from above, and from the FATHER of lights, is evident; because He is himself, all that is good and perfect, and Comprehends in his Person as GOD-Man, every other. Having CHRIST, we have with him, his gifts and graces. Nevertheless, it is not the gifts and graces, but CHRIST, which is the one good and perfect gift; yea, every one included in Him, which cometh from above." -Robert Hawker

    4. "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." [James 1:18]

    "And who is it, that by His own will, begat the Church to be a kind of first-fruits of his creatures, but GOD the HOLY GHOST, when by regeneration the LORD first brings the child of GOD, by the new birth, to the knowledge of his high privilege of this good and perfect gift, CHRIST? 2 Peter 1:3-4; Ephesians 1:9. What can more blessedly manifest, the love and grace, of the HOLY THREE in ONE, towards the highly favoured objects of the chosen in CHRIST, than such demonstrations, of the personal and distinct acts towards them? If it be the Spirit's own will, in begetting the Church from the Adam-nature of the fall; is not the LORD the SPIRIT, the first predisposing cause, in bringing from death to life, the chosen, and the redeemed of the LORD, to the knowledge and enjoyment of their privileges? Surely He is the efficient cause, and his will his good pleasure. And the very object intended from it, namely, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures; the sweet and blessed design, of the new birth in regeneration." -Robert Hawker

    5. "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." [James 1:21]

    "I see no reason to dwell in the use of arguments, to enforce the blessed consequences, which the Apostle hath so persuasively added; as the immediate result of having been so begotten. Where the SPIRIT dwells, and the work of regeneration is wrought; divine teaching, and divine influences, will be sure to accompany that teaching. Swiftness to hear the LORD'S words; slowness to speak our own; receiving with meekness the engrafted word, with all the gracious accompaniments, will follow. It may be said of the LORD'S redeemed ones now, as it was taught the Baptist of old, the way by which he should know CHRIST; in humble comparison to the same standard, upon whom the SPIRIT descends and remains; the same is he that is born of GOD, John 1:33. GOD'S work is a sure work. And GOD, in the new birth, forms the new creature, after the image of him that created him, Colossians 3:10." - Robert Hawker

    6. "Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" [James 2:5]

    "Reader! do not hastily pass away from this very lovely description, which, by the pen of the Apostle, the HOLY GHOST hath given of the LORD'S people. The words are put, in a way of question; but they decide the thing while asking of it, GOD hath chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom. Not simply poor, in outward things; though for the most part, the LORD'S people are, every way poor, in body and in spirit; but spiritually poor in their own attainments; for the riches of faith, find larger scope for exercise, where the soul is always laying humble before GOD! Sweet is that scripture of the LORD, by the Prophet to this amount, Zephaniah 3:12." - Robert Hawker

    7. "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." [James 2:23]

    "From the whole, therefore, I cannot hesitate to conclude, that the Apostles Paul and James, were both taught of GOD; both inspired by the HOLY GHOST when writing their Epistles; both had the same views of that faith, which is of the operation of GOD; and both knew, that the Church hath justification before GOD in CHRIST alone, without the deeds of the law, and solely in the blood and righteousness of our LORD JESUS CHRIST. James, therefore, is only strengthening his brother Paul's statement of faith, in shewing, and in two such memorable instances as he produceth, how real living faith is always acted upon by real living principles; and thereby becoming subject of joy in the faithful soul, when such blessed effects spring out of so blessed a cause. I must not suffer the Reader to pass on from this Chapter before that he hath first paused, and considered with me, the blessedness of what is here said concerning the Patriarch Abraham, in that he was called the friend of GOD. What title among all the sons of men can come up to this? James, no doubt, gathered it from these passages, 2 Chronicles 20:7 and Isaiah 41:8, for otherwise, we do not find the very phrase, as James hath here worded it, in all the Bible. Every thing proves it, indeed, in the whole of Abraham's history; and that's enough. And JESUS so called his disciples, John 15:15. But what I particularly beg the Reader to remark in it, is the foundation of this friendship. It is all in GOD. Abraham's friendship to GOD, which GOD condescends to accept, is the effect of GOD'S friendship to him. But it is GOD'S friendship which is the sole cause. And let the Reader further remark, how sweetly the LORD proved Abraham's faith, by the trial of demanding his son. True faith hath true properties." -Robert Hawker

    8. "But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." [James 4:6]

    "But he giveth more grace. Yea, where grace is already given, and the child of GOD truly regenerated, the LORD will give more. And the LORD will give more of that very grace, which shall effectually oppose, and overcome my very lust, be it what it may, to evil, Oh! the sweetness, seasonableness, blessedness of this scripture, which rips open the knowledge of the wound, and gives an effectual balsam, in CHRIST'S blood, to heal. He giveth more grace..." -Robert Hawker

    9. "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." [James 5:7-8]

    "Reader! say, (if you know the LORD,) hath the LORD at any time, when bereaving you of earthly comforts, when withering your gourds, and breaking your cisterns, when stripping you like the oak of its leaves in the winter; you have stood, as in the midst of the forest, desolated, and forlorn; hath JESUS, during those seasons of nature's sorrows, refreshed in grace your soul? Hath the LORD given you increasing faith, increasing spiritual strength, hath he blessed you with the more frequent visits of his love, opened to you his covenant, shewn you his secrets, said unto you, Fear not, I am with thee, I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name, thou art mine? Surely, here is the fullest testimony to what the Apostle hath said, and encouragement enough to be always on the watch-tower for such manifestations of his grace, in the expectation of the coming of the LORD drawing nigh." - Robert Hawker

    10. "Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy." [James 5:10-11]

    "Once more. The Apostle beautifully sums up the argument, in proposing to the Church the example of the Prophets, and particularly in the instance of Job, by way of shewing the blessedness of suffering afflictions with patience. Behold! (saith he,) we count them happy which endure. Yes! The people of GOD do count the LORD'S exercised ones under trial, when found faithful, as eminently distinguished with the divine favor. It is indeed a mark of the LORD'S regard for them. They are thereby called to high dignity and honor. Paul told the Church of the Corinthians, that they were babes in CHRIST, and could not, from their tender age, bear the strong food of the Gospel. Children, truly and savingly regenerated, they were; but yet only children, 1 Corinthians 3:1-2. But, when the LORD calls an old veteran in the holy army to sharp and trying conflicts, and blesseth him with strength in the battle, this is an high honor on the saint! And the Apostle saith, Behold, we count them happy which endure." -Robert Hawker

    Addressing Additional Controversial Texts

    1. "But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." [James 4:6]

    "but he giveth grace unto the humble; who are sensible of their own vileness and meanness, and acknowledge it; who think the meanest of themselves, and the best of others; and do not envy the gifts and graces of God bestowed upon others, but rejoice at them; and ascribe all they have, and are, to the free grace of God; and ingenuously confess the deficiency of their duties, and the insufficiency of their righteousness to justify them before God; and that when they have done all they can, or are assisted to do, they are but unprofitable servants: now to these God gives grace; he not only gives grace at first, to make them humble, but he gives them more grace, or increases what he gives: grace is God's gift; he gives all the grace that is in Christ, and all the blessings of grace that are in the covenant, and all the grace that is in the hearts of his people; as faith, hope, love, repentance, humility, patience, self-denial, resignation to his will, and every degree of spiritual knowledge; and grace is only his gift; men cannot give it to themselves, nor can the best of men give it to others; not godly parents to their children; nor ministers to those to whom they preach; no, nor the angels in heaven; nor is it to be obtained by the works of men: it is a free gift; it is given of the sovereign will and good pleasure of God, to whom, and when, and in what measure he pleases; to which he is not induced by any motives in men, for they have nothing in them to move him to it; and it is given by him absolutely, without conditions, not suspending it till the performance of them; and he gives it cheerfully and not grudgingly, largely, bountifully, and in great abundance." -John Gill

    2. "Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten." [James 5:2]

    "Either through disuse of them; and so the phrase is expressive of their tenaciousness, withholding that from themselves and others which is meet, and which is keeping riches for the owners thereof, to their hurt; or these are corrupted, and are corruptible things, fading and perishing, and will stand in no stead in the day of wrath, and therefore it is great weakness to put any trust and confidence in them." -John Gill

    3. "Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door." [James 5:9]

    "lest... condemned--The best manuscript authorities read, "judged." James refers to Matthew 7:1 , "Judge not lest ye be judged." To "murmur against one another" is virtually to judge, and so to become liable to be judged." -Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown

    4. "But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation." [James 5:12]

    "Some copies read, “lest ye fall into hypocrisy”; or dissimulation, and get into a habit and custom of lying and deceiving, as common swearers do; and so reads the Arabic version." -John Gill

    5. "And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him." [James 5:15]

    "And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, etc.] That is, the prayer of the elders, being put up in faith by them, and in which the sick person joins by faith; such a prayer is a means of bringing down from God a blessing on the sick man, and of restoring him to his former health: and the Lord shall raise him up; from his bed of sickness, on which he is laid, and bring him forth to praise his name, and to fear and glorify him. And if he have committed sins; not that it is a question whether he has or not, for no man lives without sin, nor the commission of it; but the sense is, if he has been guilty of any sins, which God in particular has taken notice of, and on account of which he has laid his chastising hand upon him, in order to bring him to a sense of them, and to acknowledge them; which is sometimes the case, though not always, at the same time that his bodily health is restored: they shall be forgiven him; he shall have a discovery, and an application of pardoning grace to him: and indeed the removing the sickness or disease may be called the forgiveness of his sins, which is sometimes the sense of this phrase in Scripture, as in (1 Kings 8:34,36,50)." -John Gill

    "plainly not as Rome says, "save" the soul. but heal "the sick": as the words, "the Lord shall raise him up," prove. So the same Greek is translated, "made (thee) whole," Matthew 9:21 Matthew 9:22. and if... sins--for not all who are sick are so because of some special sins. Here a case is supposed of one visited with sickness for special sins. have committed--literally, "be in a state of having committed sins," that is, be under the consequences of sins committed. they--rather, "it": his having committed sins shall be forgiven him. The connection of sin and sickness is implied in Isaiah 33:24 , Matthew 9:2-5 , John 5:14" --Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown

    6. "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." [James 5:16]

    "Which must be understood of sins committed against one another; which should be acknowledged, and repentance for them declared, in order to mutual forgiveness and reconciliation; and this is necessary at all times, and especially on beds of affliction, and when death and eternity seem near approaching: wherefore this makes nothing for auricular confession, used by the Papists; which is of all sins, whereas this is only of such by which men offend one another; that is made to priests, but this is made by the saints to one another, by the offending party to him that is offended, for reconciliation, whereby a good end is answered; whereas there is none by the other, and very often bad consequences follow." - John Gill

    7. "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." [James 5:20]

    "Shall save a soul from death; not efficiently, but instrumentally, as in 1 Timothy 4:16 for otherwise Christ is the only Saviour." -John Gill

    "I beg the Reader to attend, with some degree of earnestness, to the two last verses in this Chapter, in order for the right apprehension. By the sinner here said to be converted from error, cannot be supposed is meant one that was before unregenerate, for the Apostle calls them brethren, and saith to them, if any of you do err. And though the LORD is pleased, sometimes in the first awakenings from sin, to use instruments for this purpose, yet, no where is it said, that these instruments convert. This is the LORD'S sole work. Creatingwork, and renewing-work, are both the LORD'S. It should seem to imply no more than this, that if a child of GOD hath backslidden from the LORD, absented himself from ordinances, neglected the means of grace, brought reproach upon the cause of the LORD CHRIST, by his behaviour, and, for a while, seemeth to have gone back into the world; and if the LORD, so disposing, sends one of his faithful ones, whether a minister, or any other, after him, and under the LORD'S blessing he is brought back to the footsteps of the flock, tell him, saith the Apostle, that he shall save a soul from death, that is, the dead and dying state into which he had fallen, and shall be instrumental in the LORD'S hand, to hide a multitude of sins; that is, not his sins whom the LORD employs in this service, but the other's, whose sins lay before open and uncovered to every observer's view. That this must be the real sense of the passage, is evident from the plainest truths of GOD'S Holy Word. The saving a soul from death, can belong to none but GOD. Neither can salvation be found, but in CHRIST, Acts 4:12. And the conversion of the heart to GOD, at the first, and the recovery of the soul in all the after-falls and deadenings of it, belong only to the province of the HOLY GHOST. But what a very sweet and gracious encouragement is this scripture to the Church at large, and especially to those who labor in the word and doctrine, to search, and seek out, as JESUS saith he will, and as JESUS certainly doth, by his HOLY SPIRIT, the sheep of CHRIST'S fold, in all places whither they are scattered, in the dark and cloudy day. Precious LORD! do as thou hast said! Ezekiel 34:12." -Robert Hawker

  4. #4
    Administrator Greg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,136
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    18
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    15
    Thanked in
    8 Posts

    Re: Article: James Exposed

    Abraham, we have discussed James on this forum ad nauseam.
    We are happy to discuss this topic again if something new is brought up. (I mean this sincerely)
    Please read this: http://www.predestinarian.net/content/66-James-2-14-26
    and this post, and the links in it: http://www.predestinarian.net/thread...ll=1#post50198
    At that point I'm sure you will at least understand our position, and if you have anything new to dialog about after reviewing this material we will happily go down that road with you.

    Greg
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

  5. #5
    Abraham Juliot
    Guest

    Re: Article: James Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlyfavored View Post
    At that point I'm sure you will at least understand our position, and if you have anything new to dialog about after reviewing this material we will happily go down that road with you.

    Greg
    Hi Greg,

    Let me know if you have carefully read everything I have posted here. I would appreciate it if Nicholas would respond to what I have written. I'm addressing his article. Thanks for your assistance though.

    I have read and browsed through some of the popular discussions in the past and I'm not helped by arguments with these kind of statements... "I think James is a bunch of judizer crap."

    Blessings

  6. #6
    Administrator Greg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,136
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    18
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    15
    Thanked in
    8 Posts

    Re: Article: James Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Abraham Juliot View Post
    Hi Greg,

    Let me know if you have carefully read everything I have posted here.
    I have read what you wrote and that's not the point, I said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    Abraham, we have discussed James on this forum ad nauseam.
    We are happy to discuss this topic again if something new is brought up. (I mean this sincerely)
    Please read this: http://www.predestinarian.net/content/66-James-2-14-26
    and this post, and the links in it: http://www.predestinarian.net/thread...ll=1#post50198
    At that point I'm sure you will at least understand our position, and if you have anything new to dialog about after reviewing this material we will happily go down that road with you.
    You go on with:
    I would appreciate it if Nicholas would respond to what I have written. I'm addressing his article. Thanks for your assistance though.
    Nick can do whatever he pleases, though I know he would agree with me. Btw your last sentence sounds a little pretentious, I don't know if you intended that.

    I have read and browsed through some of the popular discussions in the past and I'm not helped by arguments with these kind of statements... \\\\\"I think James is a bunch of judizer crap.\\\\\"
    You are probably quoting me here, sometimes I can be a little crass.
    However, I do think that James is a bunch of judizer crap, I'm in agreement with Luther on this one.

    Like I suggested to you before, read the threads I listed, those on James but more importantly those on the canon, you might better understand our position. If you choose not to that's fine also.

    That being said, if you want to argue for James without a grasp of what our position is, it's simply a waste of time for you and us.
    Isaiah 45:7, (KJV), I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

  7. #7
    Abraham Juliot
    Guest
    Greg my friend,

    When I posted my first comment to Nicholas' article, I was not looking for a discussion on this topic. I simply wanted to respond and comment on the article. I usually post dozens of questions when I'm looking for a big discussion. It would be nice to chat with Nicholas, but I understand that this is perhaps overly discussed.

    I do appreciate any help you provide, but the Canon threads are irrelevant to my arguments.

    I studied Johnson and Nicholas over a year ago and spent months without a firm persuasion on either side. I've been familiar with the threads on this topic for some time now. I wasn't intending to start a new big discussion, nor was I expecting anyone to respond to me.

    I don't hold to the protestant view of James 2. I agree with Robert Hawker.

    http://againstdutyfaith.blogspot.com...rt-hawker.html

    Blessings

  8. #8
    Abraham Juliot
    Guest
    I'm not interested in discussing this with anyone who is not interested in addressing these few scriptures.

    "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." [Luke 8:13]

    "Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man." [John 2:23-25]

    "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God." [John 12:42-43]

    "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." [1 John 3:10]

    "Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." [1 John 3:13-15]

    "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." [Matthew 6:14-15]

  9. #9
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,672
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    74
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    119
    Thanked in
    65 Posts

    Re: Article: James Exposed

    Abraham,

    On these issues we will NEVER agree! I have often posted certain differences with Nick's article from a historical standpoint--i.e., I do not believe James the half-brother of Christ is the author of the epistle named James for many reasons (the lack of early attestation of the very existence of the book until after 200 A.D., etc.). But the theological implications are plain. The canonicity of James is parallel to the Lutheran (anti-Luther himself) and Reformed doctrine of the THIRD USE OF THE LAW. They stand or fall together.

    James is exposing the man that says he has faith and shows no works of faith by love which would evidence that he is a true friend of God.

    Absolutely not! This is the 3rd use argument to the uttermost--we must prove ourselves justified before God to other men and to our own conscience by works of love. This is the ultimate in papist subjectivism and why the Papacy at Regensburg demanded that the Protestants submit to the homolegomena canonicity of James (which was against all of even Papist history prior). If this notion is accepted (works based assurance), the gospel is null and void.

    Abraham, your arguments remind me vividly of politicians who parrot the weaknesses of their opponents to prove that they are right--as if pointing out a few inconsistencies in the arguments of anyone proves that your opponent is wrong!
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  10. #10
    Abraham Juliot
    Guest
    ...and to our own conscience by works of love.
    I didn't say this. I denied this. "James is not teaching that personal assurance of justification is by works, nor is he teaching that we are justified before others by works of the law. Rather, James is teaching "how" a man is justified (declared righteous) by works of faith... James is not teaching that the personal assurance of our justification through Christ is by works." Make sure you finish reading the paragraph before you respond. I agree with Robert Hawker's view:

    "But what hath this to do with works of morality, or good deeds among men? This was a transaction wholly between God and the Patriarch, in the concern of his own soul, and had no reference whatever to the transactions of common life between man and man. It must be prejudice indeed, and of no ordinary kind, that would here from draw conclusions, that morality, and good deeds, among men, were the works James had in view when he said, and by works was Abraham's faith made perfect; when it is plain, the Apostle is, wholly discoursing upon this subject, in reference to the solemn transaction between God and the Patriarch. In like manner, as a further proof, in the instance of Rahab. No one for a moment can suppose, that the Apostle, when speaking of this woman being justified by works, alluded to works of goodness or morality. A woman of ill-fame could not be thought exemplary for any of these. And, with respect to her conduct towards her country, blessed as her faith, and works on that faith, were in the sight of God; yet, in the world's dictionary, she was treacherous towards man. When, therefore, we hear the Apostle demanding, was Yes! Her receiving the spies in peace, was a work of faith indeed, which proved how true, and genuine her faith was; and became the precious effect of that sure cause. And God the Holy Ghost elsewhere bears testimony to this act of her's, upon the faith the Lord had given her, when he saith: by faith the harlot Rahab perished not, with them that believed not, Hebrews 11:31. But how totally foreign are both these instances to the doctrine some have raised from this Chapter; which, while the Apostle is directly producing instances to shew, that a lively faith (as in those cases) must, and will everlastingly be acted upon, in proof that it is not a dead, unprofitable faith they draw conclusions, as if faith without morality was dead, being alone, and cannot justify before God." -Hawker

    Abraham, your arguments remind me vividly of politicians who parrot the weaknesses of their opponents to prove that they are right--as if pointing out a few inconsistencies in the arguments of anyone proves that your opponent is wrong!
    Interesting... but not worth discussing. As I said before I'm not interested in discussing this with anyone who is not interested in addressing these few scriptures. Luke 8:13, John 2:23-25, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 3:13-15, Matthew 6:14-15. I'm especially not interested in getting into an argument where we start making fun of our opponents with words like "crap" and "politicians who parrot." I prefer a discussion on a more sober level. Your not letting me down if you move on.

    Blessings

  11. #11
    Abraham Juliot
    Guest

    Re: Article: James Exposed

    I added these brackets to one of my statements above for clarification:

    Notice that James says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." The "how" is important. James is teaching "how" we are justified (declared righteous) in the sight of others [God and Man]. It is by works of faith, and not by faith only. Notice that James says, "...I will shew thee my faith by my works..." [before Man] and when referring to Abraham he writes "...he was called the Friend of God. " [before God] We show ourselves to be a true friend of God by works of love [from true Faith which worketh by Love] (from gospel hope) which come from a heart that has embraced the merciful love of Christ.

  12. #12
    Abraham Juliot
    Guest

    Re: Article: James Exposed

    If James is speaking of works of the Law when he brings up Abraham and Rahab, where does the law command the deeds which Abraham and Rahab did? If the law does not command them, how is it that so many speak of these works as if they are works of the Law and not works of Faith? There is a huge difference. The Law is not of Faith. Scriptures speak of the Law of Faith and the Law of Works (see Romans 3). There is no curse threatened in the Law of faith. The curse is threatened in the Law of works. The Law of Faith has commands to hope in Christ and live through Him. The Law of works commands nothing of faith in Christ or living through Him. What works is James speaking of in light of the works which Rahab and Abraham did?

  13. #13
    Abraham Juliot
    Guest

    Re: Article: James Exposed

    At this point I'm open for a friendly and scripture focused discussion. But, if no one is interested... I will be simply presenting some things to think about.

    Comparing other Texts with James - Important Questions
    "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." [Hebrews 11:4-5]

    1. Was Abel's deed a work of the Law or a work of Faith?
    2. Does the Law command souls to do what Abel did?
    3. What did abel obtain by faith when he offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice?
    4. From who did he obtain this?
    5. What did God testify of?

    "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." [James 2:21-23]

    1.Does the text say that this scripture was first fulfilled at this time?
    2. Or is this an example of the ongoing fulfillment? [namely continual assurance of the hope of righteousness through faith and the works of faith]
    3. Was Abraham's deed a wok of the Law or a work of Faith?
    4. Does the Law command souls to do what Abraham did?
    5. What testimony did Abraham obtain when he had offered Isaac?
    6. From whom did he obtain this testimony?

    "By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace." [Hebrews 11:30] "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?" [James 2:25]

    1. Was Rahab's deed a work of the Law or a work of Faith?
    2. Does the Law command souls to do what Rahab did?

    "And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head. Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet. My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven." [Luke 7:44-48]

    1. Was this woman's deed a work of the Law or a work of Faith?
    2. Does the Law command souls to do what this woman did?
    3. What witness before Jesus and the men did this woman obtain by faith when she kissed Jesus?
    4. From whom did she obtain this?
    5. What did Jesus testify to her?

    "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name... And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors... For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses... Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?... Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?" [Matthew 6:9, 12, 14-15, 26, 30]

    1. Who specifically is Jesus directing here?
    2. What kind of souls was Jesus speaking to when he said "O ye of little faith"?
    3. Does the Law of Works or the Law of Faith direct us to pray to God as our "Father"?
    4. Does the Law of Works or the Law of Faith direct us to pray "forgive us our debts..."?
    5. Does the Law of works promise forgiveness if we forgive others?
    6. What witness does an unforgiving heart obtain from God?
    7. What kind of prayers does the forgiving heart pray in this passage? [Prayers to God in faith as your Heavenly Father or deeds in the law of works to God as your Creator and Wrathful Judge]
    8. What witness does a faith-praying-forgiving heart obtain?
    9. From whom does this same heart obtain witness?

    "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." [Romans 3:27-28]

    1. Is faith a law?
    2. Are the deeds of the law commanded in the law of faith?
    3. Are deeds n the law of faith deeds in the law of works.

    "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." [Galatians 3:10-14]

    1. What Law has a cursed promised in it? [the law of faith or the law of works]
    2. What Law has the promise of the spirit in it? [the law of faith or the law of works]

    "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." [Matthew 11:28-30]

    1. What law commands the "heavy laden" to come unto Jesus? [the Law of works or the law of faith]

    "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." [Romans 3:14] "And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." [Ephesians 4:24] "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." [Ephesians 6:11] ""And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him." [Colossians 3:10] "Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." [Colossians 3:12] "But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation." [1 Thessalonians 5:8]

    1. In each of theses scriptures, "What law commands the child of God to act (put on)"?

    Thy Faith Hath Saved Thee
    "And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace." [Luke 7:48-50]

    1. What does faith save us from?
    2. What did Jesus tell the woman to go in?

    "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" [James 2:14]

    1. What does a true and living faith save us from which a dead faith cannot save us from?

    "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." [Luke 8:13] "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God." [John 12:42-43] "Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man." [John 2:23-25]

    1. Are any of these passages an example of a saving faith or a faith that acts according to the law of faith?

  14. #14
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,672
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    74
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    119
    Thanked in
    65 Posts

    Re: Article: James Exposed

    Where is the 'friend of God' quote in the Old Testament?

    James is teaching "how" a man is justified (declared righteous) by works of faith.

    This can be spun any and every way. Works are works; the book called James is referring to SPECIFIC DEEDS as assurance of justification. It doesn't matter whether these deeds are called works of law or works of faith. If assurance is based on a certain level of performance of specific deeds which evidence love, grace is no more grace. There is no way to measure whether enough works of faith have been performed.

    HAVE YOU DONE YOUR WORKS OF FAITH SINCE YOU BELIEVED, ENOUGH TO BE ASSURED THAT YOU ARE SAVED?
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  15. #15
    Abraham Juliot
    Guest

    Re: Article: James Exposed

    Where is the 'friend of God' quote in the Old Testament?
    "Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?" [2 Chronicles 20:7] "But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend." [Isaiah 41:8]

    Works are works; the book called James is referring to SPECIFIC DEEDS as assurance of justification. It doesn't matter whether these deeds are called works of law or works of faith.
    Works of the Law are very distinct from works of faith. It is a very serious error to blend the two together. "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. Galatians 3:2, 3, 5, 10-11]

    "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." [Hebrews 11:4-5]

    James is referring to SPECIFIC DEEDS as assurance of justification.
    No. Please address my questions if your seeking to persuade me of your position.

    If assurance is based on a certain level of performance of specific deeds which evidence love, grace is no more grace... HAVE YOU DONE YOUR WORKS OF FAITH SINCE YOU BELIEVED, ENOUGH TO BE ASSURED THAT YOU ARE SAVED?
    Your argument is aimed at the Catholic interpretation of James. Who are you seeking to persuade? This is irrelevant to my position. I never said that our personal assurance is based on our works of faith.

    This can be spun any and every way.
    My questions require time and thought. If your not interested I understand. I'm not looking for a discussion when there is no interest.

  16. #16
    Moderator Saint Nicholas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    New Castle, PA
    Posts
    711
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Article: James Exposed

    Hello Abraham.
    Thank you for your inquiry into the letter of James. As I have stated before, whether the letter was written by James or someone else is irrelevant.
    The main disagreements we have with "James" is this:

    1) We believe James is teaching the doctrine of Justification before God by faith + works, in effect negating the sole imputation of Christ’s merits/righteousness as the ONLY grounds of our acceptance before God.

    2) We disagree with typical Reformed, non-Roman Catholic, and Evangelical view of a Justification which requires some sort of proof and or acceptance before men, typically taught as a Justification before men to create a new concept to evade the clear intention, language, meaning, and teaching of James 2:14-26 which teaches justification not by faith alone.

    3) We disagree with the Roman Catholic understanding of Justification as a gradual process of sanctifying graces which results in sinless perfection.

    Your main thrust and defense of James lies in the notion that James is teaching a Justification before men as your premise.

    Let’s for the sake of argument go along with your premise that there is such a Justification before men to prove one’s Justification before God, as you defend James is teaching.
    Are you Abraham justified before God by faith alone without all works? I’ll assume your answer is yes. Now since your faith works by love and not necessarily the Law of Moses, let me put forth a list of questions for you to answer before us men so we can determine if your faith before God is real. Remember..we have not met you, know you, and are without the benefit of any historical writings about you to consider. So please answer honestly for us men to honestly weigh your works of love to determine the genuineness of your faith and justification before God.

    Basis text for Abraham Juliot’s works to be examined by.

    James 2:18 But someone will say, "you have faith, and I have works," But Abraham Juliot and James says "show me your faith without your works, and I (Abraham Juliot and James) will show you my faith by my works".

    Questions:

    1) Are you always (not sometimes) swift to hear, slow to speak, and slow to wrath?
    2) Do you lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness in your life along with receiving meekness the implanted word?
    3) Are you always in your life a doer of the Word?
    4) Do you always bridle your tongue? If not your religion is useless.
    5) Do you visit orphans and widows in their trouble while keeping yourself unspotted from the world? If you have failed to perform any of these requirements Abraham, your faith and religion is useless, not pure, and defiled.
    6) Are you sometimes partial toward people because of the clothes they wear, the color of their skin, their economic situation, the accent or dialogue of their speech, their status in life, their titles or position?
    7) Do all rich people oppress the poor?
    8) Do all the rich blaspheme God?
    9) Do you ever show partiality?
    10) Do you feed and clothe all your brothers and sisters who are naked and destitute and give them the things which are needed for their body?
    11) Since the tongue is a fire and a world iniquity, do you always bridle your tongue?
    12) Have you had days where you have spoken Blessings and bad tidings? These things ought not be so!!!!
    13) Are you wise and understanding? You must prove to us by good conduct that your works are done in the meekness of wisdom.
    14) Do you have bitter envy, or are you self-seeking in your heart?
    15) Do you ever boast or lie against the truth?
    16) Do you always make peace and seek peaceful solutions?
    17) Are you always pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy?
    18) Are their moments of pride in your life?
    19) Do you lust?
    20) Do you ever have hateful thoughts toward anyone? If so you are a murderer.
    21) Are you friends with the world?
    22) Do you always resist the devil?
    23) Do you cleanse your hands and purify your heart?
    24) Are you double minded?
    25) Do you ever speak evil?
    26) Do you ever a judge a brother? If so you are you are judging the law and not a doer of the law.
    27) Do you ever boast?
    28) If you know what is good, do you always do good? If not it is sin!
    29) Are you always patient?
    30) Do you grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned?
    31) Do you ever swear, either by heaven or earth, or by with other oath?
    32) Is your "yes" always "yes" and you "no" always "no"
    33) Are you suffering? Do you pray?
    34) Are you cheerful? Do you sing psalms?
    35) Are you sick? Do you call for the elders of the church to pray and anoint you with oil?
    36) Do you confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another?
    Now Abraham, if you wander from the above truths as outlined in the above questions and someone turns you back let that someone know that he who turns a sinner (Abraham) from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

    From Death????

    I thought this man was Justified before God already and these above works of love were just proofs. I guess not according to James. This man can wander from Justification and be in danger of hell for lack of good works.
     
    Lets look at some more works and proofs before men.

    David
    Sinned with Bathsheba
    Had Uriah killed

    To those onlookers in his day and James, I guess David had dead faith.

    Judas Iscariot.
    Performed miracles.
    Fed the poor.
    Gave money to the poor.

    To those onlookers in his day and James, I guess Judas had living faith.
     
    Peter
    At times disagreed with Christ.
    Denied Christ
    Was angry in his heart

    To those onlookers in his day and James, I guess Peter had dead faith.

    I could go on and on to show the futility of the heresy that James is teaching a justification before men.
    In conclusion there is absolutely no way to establish any sort of proof that one could perceive that another has true and genuine justifying faith before God. These things are left to God alone.
     
    Now I know that Abraham Juliot and all those who think and teach like Abraham will say that we do not think that all the above works listed in the questions are not important. That’s not true!
    All the fruits and consequences of Holy Spirit regeneration and inward/subjective moral change within the believer are not only a blessing to us but also a direct work of God. But in know way shape or form these subjective moral qualities aid or are proofs before men of Justification. Justification carries with it nothing but Christ’s Imputed Merits alone. All of Christ for men. And nothing in men for Justification.

    Nicholas
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand..........John 10:27,28

  17. #17
    Abraham Juliot
    Guest

    Re: Article: James Exposed

    We disagree with typical Reformed, non-Roman Catholic, and Evangelical view of a Justification which requires some sort of proof and or acceptance before men... We disagree with the Roman Catholic understanding of Justification as a gradual process of sanctifying graces which results in sinless perfection... Your main thrust and defense of James lies in the notion that James is teaching a Justification before men as your premise...Let’s for the sake of argument go along with your premise that there is such a Justification before men...
    I am not presenting a case for the catholic or the reformed interpretation. I careful study of what I have written would evidence this. I don't believe james teaches sinless perfectionism or progressive sanctification.

    Please read below carefully as it summarizes my view... which you are not addressing. So far, Johnson is the only one that has reasoned in light of my view. Higby and yourself are reasoning with me against the Catholic view (assurance and evidence before God and man by works of the law and works of faith) and the Protestant view (manifestation before men by works of law). I hold to the view that teaches assurance in our conscience by faith (not by works of the law or works of faith). Manifestation before God and man is by works of faith... please don't confuse this with works, deeds, and duties in the law of works. All who are of the works of the Law are under the curse.

    I agree with strict baptist William Styles on the two-fold exercises of faith:

    "The exercises of Faith are two-fold—passive and active. Its passive exercises are reception and reliance (Col. 2:6; 1 Thess. 1:6; Heb. 11:33, “obtained promises”—Isa. 30:7; 2 Tim. 1:12); its active exercises are all the gracious duties enjoined in the gospel, for Faith is the motive power of every act which is spiritually pleasing to God through Christ (Heb. 11:6; Rom. 5:2; 2 Cor. 1:2, 4 and 5:7; Gal. 2:20; Heb. 11 whole chapter). The passive and active exercises of Faith are brought together in Heb. 11:13. “They saw the promises afar off, were persuaded of them, and embraced them”—then, in the power of this persuasion, they voluntarily acted as “strangers and pilgrims on the earth.” So also in Col. 2:6, “As ye have received Christ Jesus the Lord”—passive reception, “so walk in Him”—gracious activity." -William Styles

    The personal assurance of our justification is by the passive exercise of faith in Christ in our conscience. The open manifestation of our justification is by the active exercise of faith walking with Christ before God and man. The law of works does not command anyone to trust in Christ as your redeemer or to walk with Him as your redeemer. Therefore, the assurance of faith and the works of faith are not deeds of the law. The law is not of faith, we do not receive the spirit by works of the law, we are declared righteous apart from the deeds of the law, no flesh shall be justified by the law, and all who are of the works of the law are under a curse.

    Notice that James says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." The "how" is important. James is teaching "how" we are justified (declared righteous) in the sight of others [God and Man]. It is by works of faith, and not by faith only. Notice that James says, "...I will shew thee my faith by my works..." [before Man] and when referring to Abraham he writes "...he was called the Friend of God. " [before God] We show ourselves to be a true friend of God by works of love [from true Faith which worketh by Love] (from gospel hope) which come from a heart that has embraced the merciful love of Christ.

    I agree with to Robert Hawker's rare view:

    "But what hath this to do with works of morality, or good deeds among men? This was a transaction wholly between God and the Patriarch, in the concern of his own soul, and had no reference whatever to the transactions of common life between man and man. It must be prejudice indeed, and of no ordinary kind, that would here from draw conclusions, that morality, and good deeds, among men, were the works James had in view when he said, and by works was Abraham's faith made perfect; when it is plain, the Apostle is, wholly discoursing upon this subject, in reference to the solemn transaction between God and the Patriarch. In like manner, as a further proof, in the instance of Rahab. No one for a moment can suppose, that the Apostle, when speaking of this woman being justified by works, alluded to works of goodness or morality. A woman of ill-fame could not be thought exemplary for any of these. And, with respect to her conduct towards her country, blessed as her faith, and works on that faith, were in the sight of God; yet, in the world's dictionary, she was treacherous towards man. When, therefore, we hear the Apostle demanding, was Yes! Her receiving the spies in peace, was a work of faith indeed, which proved how true, and genuine her faith was; and became the precious effect of that sure cause. And God the Holy Ghost elsewhere bears testimony to this act of her's, upon the faith the Lord had given her, when he saith: by faith the harlot Rahab perished not, with them that believed not, Hebrews 11:31. But how totally foreign are both these instances to the doctrine some have raised from this Chapter; which, while the Apostle is directly producing instances to shew, that a lively faith (as in those cases) must, and will everlastingly be acted upon, in proof that it is not a dead, unprofitable faith they draw conclusions, as if faith without morality was dead, being alone, and cannot justify before God." -Robert Hawker

    The blood of Christ is the ground and cause of our justification (Romans 3:24-25 and Romans 5:9). Neither faith nor works of faith are the ground or cause of our justification. Paul does not teach that faith is the ground or cause of our justification and James does not teach that works of faith are the ground or cause of our justification. The context of Paul is referring to the witness of the Spirit in the conscience that we are justified freely by God's grace because of the blood of Christ and James is referring to the manifestation before God and man (open evidence, witness, and testimony) that we are justified freely by God's grace because of the blood of Jesus. Neither faith nor works of faith are the ground and cause of our justification. They only testify and bear witness that we are justified freely by God's grace because of the blood of Christ. Faith looks to Christ and receives witness from the Spirit in the conscience. Works of faith walk with Christ and bear witness before God and man.

    "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." [Hebrews 11:4-5]

    1. Was Abel's deed a work of the Law or a work of Faith?
    2. Does the Law command souls to do what Abel did?
    3. What did abel obtain by faith when he offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice?
    4. From who did he obtain this?
    5. What did God testify of?

    "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name... And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors... For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses... Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?... Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?" [Matthew 6:9, 12, 14-15, 26, 30]

    1. Who specifically is Jesus directing here?
    2. What kind of souls was Jesus speaking to when he said "O ye of little faith"?
    3. Does the Law of Works or the Law of Faith direct us to pray to God as our "Father"?
    4. Does the Law of Works or the Law of Faith direct us to pray "forgive us our debts..."?
    5. Does the Law of works promise forgiveness if we forgive others?
    6. What witness does an unforgiving heart obtain from God?
    7. What kind of prayers does the forgiving heart pray in this passage? [Prayers to God in faith as your Heavenly Father or deeds in the law of works to God as your Creator and Wrathful Judge]
    8. What witness does a faith-praying-forgiving heart obtain?
    9. From whom does this same heart obtain witness?

    let me put forth a list of questions for you to answer before us men so we can determine if your faith before God is real. Remember..we have not met you, know you, and are without the benefit of any historical writings about you to consider... Remember..we have not met you, know you, and are without the benefit of any historical writings about you to consider.
    Just for clarification, I teach that our personal assurance is by faith, not by our works of faith. I do not believe that James teaches that we receive personal assurance from the testimony of men or from our works of faith (which are manifested before God and man). Works of faith are for a manifestation before God and Man.

    "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." [1 John 3:10] "Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." [1 John 3:13-15]

    The purity of faith which worketh by love is the manifestation. My answer to these questions is not an manifestation before God and man of the truth. "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" [1 John 4:20]

    Are you always... Do you always...
    Neither James nor John speak of unceasing works of faith as the manifestation of our justification before God and man. Abel had one work of faith that is recorded for us in Hebrews 11. I don't think Abel needed anymore works of faith to be recorded for us to believe God's witness of him. "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh." [Hebrews 11:4] See also Abraham in Genesis 22. "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." [Genesis 22:12]

    Nicholas, If you want to get to know me, you are welcome to ask to for my number. I live in Southern California if you would like to enjoy a hike in the mountains or a walk on the beach. I like the mountains near Wrightwood and the beaches near Laguna.

    7) Do all rich people oppress the poor?
    8) Do all the rich blaspheme God
    Certainly not. James doesn't say or imply "all" when we look at the context. I addressed James 5:2 above in my 2nd post to this thread. Please address these questions on the context and on similar passages.

    "Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you." [James 5:1-6]

    1. What kind of rich men is James reproving in this passage?
    2. Is James addressing rich men who have not "kept back by fraud... lived in pleasure on the earth... and condemned and killed the just"?

    "And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God." [Luke 12:16-21]

    1. Did this rich man live in pleasure on the earth?
    2. Is Jesus reproving this man for laying up treasure for himself?

    "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented." [Luke 16:19-25]

    1. Did this rich man live in pleasure on the earth?
    2. Is this rich man guilty of condemning and killing the just?

    "But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." [1 Timothy 5:6] "Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God." [2 Timothy 3:4]

    1. Can people who "lived in pleasure on the earth" also be considered as "lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God"?

    "But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition." [1 Timothy 6:9]

    1. What happens to the man that "will be" rich?

    "Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die: Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain." [Proverbs 30:7-9]

    1. How does a wise pray when it comes to riches?
    2. Are they wise who "will be rich" and pray for "riches"?

    "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal." [Matthew 6:19]

    1. What did Jesus tell his disciples to not lay up upon earth?

    Now Abraham, if you wander from the above truths as outlined in the above questions and someone turns you back let that someone know that he who turns a sinner (Abraham) from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. From Death????
    I addressed this scripture in my 2nd post at the beginning of this thread. Please consider the arguments there and answer these questions on similar scriptures:

    "Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:" [Acts 26:17-19]

    1. Was Paul sent to open their eyes?
    2. Was Paul sent to turn them from darkness to light?
    3. Was Paul sent to turn them from the power of satan unto God?

    "And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God." [Luke 1:16]

    1. Did John the baptist turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God.

    "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." [Proverbs 14:12]

    1. Can "death" be considered as a "way"?

    "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" [Ezekiel 33:11]

    1. What is it that God does not take pleasure in here?

    "And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." [Acts 2:40] "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." [1 Timothy 4:16]

    1. What are we exhorted to save ourselves from in these verses?

    Judas Iscariot.
    Performed miracles.
    Fed the poor.
    Gave money to the poor. To those onlookers in his day and James, I guess Judas had living faith...
    Are these are these works of faith? The question is not, are these deeds of outward morality? Are these works of faith? Did Jesus ever bear witness that Judas feared God? In follow the wisdom of Christ and we shouldn't assume people are regenerate when the performs outward deeds of morality. Works of faith are the evidence. That is why Paul could thank God for other believers.

    In conclusion there is absolutely no way to establish any sort of proof that one could perceive that another has true and genuine justifying faith before God. These things are left to God alone.
    "We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God." [1 Thessalonians 1:2-4]

    1. What kind of works did Paul remember? Was it works of faith or works of the law?
    2. What did Paul know about these believers?

    I could go on and on to show the futility of the heresy that James is teaching a justification before men.
    Your going to have to start from beginning. You began making argument towards the Catholic and protestant view. It would be irrelevant to me for you to continue with the same arguments. Furthermore, much of what you said has just been refuted by scripture. If you intend to persuade me, you will need to start from scratch and address my questions.

    Blessings,
    -Abraham

  18. #18
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,672
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    74
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    119
    Thanked in
    65 Posts

    Re: Article: James Exposed

    Abraham,

    I don't intend to persuade you. We post here for the benefit of all the readers! That is the only reason I have challenged some of your observations. Here at p-net we do not attempt to persuade those with a-priori assumptions; it is not what we are about. I know that you believe your position is studied, legitimate, logical, and has the testimony of the Spirit. I happen to disagree and am expressing that disagreement to our general readership--not to persuade you.

    I stand by my position that justification by works is demonic doctrine HOWEVER it is expressed--whether in terms of works of faith, works of love, New Covenant works (ala Federal Vision teaching), whatever. Paul would never use this expression. He stated in Ephesians that we are created anew in Christ UNTO good works. However, those works are ever and always fruit in his theology and NEVER the basis of justification.

    I believe the comparision of James 2:14-26 to other scriptures that you have presented is misleading because it implies that the other references say exactly the same thing that James is saying. But they do not! The works of the elect as fruit of justification are NEVER the equivalent of ANY FORM of justification by works.

    On the matter of where the 'friend of God' quote was used in the OT, I was attempting to point out that it was not in Genesis and you confirmed that. So the merging of that concept with Abraham's justification was a johnny-come-lately exercise. Does anyone know where that merger quote first appeared in history (hint--not in the book called James).

    --Bob
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  19. #19
    Abraham Juliot
    Guest
    I don't intend to persuade you.
    That's fine. I welcome your thoughts. However, please don't address what I have written as though you were reasoning with me (when you're not). You are welcome to steer your readers away from considering my arguments.

    I believe the comparision of James 2:14-26 to other scriptures that you have presented is misleading because it implies that the other references say exactly the same thing that James is saying. But they do not!
    What do these other scriptures teach? Would it not benefit the reader if you opened up the text and reasoned through it.

    We post here for the benefit of all the readers!
    Dear Reader,

    I presented many scriptures with simple questions (which remain unanswered). Please consider them. Higby gave his doctrinal statement and it is void of any scriptural examination to assist your studies.

  20. #20
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,672
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    74
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    119
    Thanked in
    65 Posts

    Re: Article: James Exposed

    Thanks for your observation and correction Abraham; in the future I will speak in the third person and not directly. It is very easy to say 'you have presented no scripture' but my argument here is that the scriptures presented do not harmonize at all with James 2:14-26.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

Page 1 of 5 1 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Accepting pedo-baptists to the Lord's table
    By alt731 in forum Pristine Grace Gospel Discussions
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 03-17-19, 09:39 AM
  2. URCNA, RCUS, OCRC, and PRCA
    By wildboar in forum Predestinarian Doctrine Archive
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 01-13-05, 09:19 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •