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Thread: Article: James Exposed

  1. #21
    Abraham Juliot
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    It is important that we "preach the word". I understand your concern though... in that your lack of scriptures here... does not imply that you have none to present and reason from. I apologize for misrepresenting you on that.

    On the matter of where the 'friend of God' quote was used in the OT, I was attempting to point out that it was not in Genesis and you confirmed that. So the merging of that concept with Abraham's justification was a johnny-come-lately exercise. Does anyone know where that merger quote first appeared in history (hint--not in the book called James).
    This is a fair observation. It is important to note that James does not clarify the timing of when Abraham was called "the Friend of God." But, it is clear that he was called "the Friend of God" in light of this event.

    "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." [James 2:23]

    You would have a good argument if the scripture said "And at this time the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God at this time."

    James does not clarify exactly when Abraham was called "the Friend of God". However, James does clarify that Abraham was called "the Friend of God" because of his work of faith.

    Was Abraham's friendship to God manifested before anyone at this time?

    "And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." [Genesis 22:10-12]

    It is important to understand that Abraham's work of faith was not the ground or cause of His redemption and forgiveness through Christ. Abraham's work of faith was a manifestation before the angel of the LORD that he feared God. Does this mean that Abraham's personal assurance was based upon his work of faith? No, because Abraham could not have done this work without the assurance of faith in God's grace. His work of faith was a manifestation of his justification before the angel of the LORD (in that he feared God by acting through faith in God's sure promises of grace). It was not a manifestation of his justification to his own conscience. Notice that Abraham received the promises of God's grace before he offered up Isaac.

    "But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called." [Hebrews 11:16-18]

    In Genesis 15 we read that Abraham "believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." Why does James relate the fulfillment of this verse to Abraham's work of faith in Genesis 22?

    "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." [Genesis 15:6]

    "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." [James 2:23]

    The fulfillment of Abraham living in the assurance of faith is noted in Genesis 15. This event occurred way before Abraham offered up Isaac. However, it may be said that this scripture is fulfilled in every instance when Abraham walked by faith and embraced the assurance of God's grace. It is important that we understand that righteousness was not imputed because of Abraham's faith. Nor was the assurance of faith a one time fulfillment.

    Righteousness is imputed because of the love of God through the blood of Christ and personal assurance of God's grace is through faith. When we understand that Genesis 15 is speaking of Abraham's assurance of being justified in Christ, we may also understand that this scripture is fulfilled in every instance when Abraham walked by faith in God's grace. "He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." [Romans 4:20-22] Abraham offered up Isaac by faith in God's grace. It was a work which could only be wrought by faith in God's grace. When we understand this, we will understand that Abraham's work was not a deed in the Law of works. For the Law does not command anyone to live and walk by faith in God's sure promises of grace for you. Nor does it command anyone to love and fear God because of His sure promises of grace for you.

    Let us briefly consider a few scriptures in Romans which teach that we are not declared righteous by works of the Law in the sight of God or in our own conscience. In simple terms, we cannot obtain assurance of being righteous by works or deeds of the law... and no one shall be declared righteous in the sight of God by deeds of the law. Reader, If we cannot be declared righteous by works of the law in the sight of God, then be sure that we cannot be declared righteous by works of the law in the sight of men, and be assured that you cannot be declared righteous by works of the law in the sight of your own conscience.

    Rom 3:19-20 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    Here we learn that "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight." No man shall be declared righteous in God's sight by works of the law. Why? "For by the law is the knowledge of sin."

    Rom 3:24-26 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    The ground and cause of our justification is "the redemption that is in Christ Jesus". God justifies us (declares us righteous) through faith in his blood. God declares to our own conscience His righteousness for the remission of our sins that are past (His righteousness in forgiving all of our sins which we have committed). God is righteous in justifying us freely by His grace because Christ put our sins away by the sacrifice of Himself.

    Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

    Paul is not talking about works of faith in God's grace. He is talking about works which ought to be done in the flesh because of what the law commands. Paul is excluding works of the law in justification (specifically as it pertains to personal assurance). it is important to understand that Paul is expounding on we find the we are justified freely by God's grace. Paul is not trying to explain that the propitiation of our sins is not by works of the law. This is clearly established already in that the law promises nothing of the forgiveness of sins. Paul has already establish that propitiation is freely by God's grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus and that no man shall be justified (declared righteous) in the sight of God by works of the law. In chapter 4, Paul is teaching that no man shall be justified (declared righteous) in their own conscience by works of the law.

    Rom 4:12 -15 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

    Here we may note again that Paul is excluding works of the law in justification (specifically as it pertains to personal assurance).

    None of these scriptures in Romans contradict James when we understand that

    1. James is not teaching that works of the law or works of faith are the ground and cause of our justification. The blood of Christ is the ground and cause of our Justification and James does not contradict this blessed hope.
    2. James is not not teaching that we obtain personal assurance of our justification by works of the law. [1] The law does not address us as brethren and direct us to love our brother and sister by faith in God's grace. (See James 2:15-16) [2] The law did not command Abraham to offer Isaac his son upon the altar by faith in God's grace. (See James 2:21) [3] The law did not command Rahab to receive the messengers, and send them out another way by faith in God's grace. (See James 2:21)

    Works of Law are any works which are commanded in the law of works.

    "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust." [1 Timothy 1:8-11]

    "For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." [Romans 13:9]

    Works of Faith are any acts which are done by the assurance of hope in the mercy and grace of God through Jesus Christ.

    "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." [John 14:1-3] "As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love." [John 15:9] "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." [John 15:12]

    "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." [Romans 12:1-3]

    "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." [Ephesians 4:32]

    "We love him, because he first loved us." [1 John 4:19]

    "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." [Hebrews 11:7] "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." [Hebrews 11:8-10] "By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them." [Hebrews 11:24-28]

    Works of faith are not commanded in the law of works and works of law and not commanded in the law of faith. The law of works promises a curse for every transgressor and the law of faith promises through sure grace the eternal forgiving and cleansing blood of Christ for the very enemies of God whom God has called by His grace before the world began. These are turned by His grace to hope in Him and love Him because He first loved them.

    "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." [2 Timothy 1:7-10]

    "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us." [Romans 8:28-37]

    Dear reader, consider these words from brother Hawker:

    "If we believe not yet he abideth faithful, he cannot deny himself. Reader! cherish the blessed assurance, for it is most blessed. GOD’S faithfulness doth not depend upon man's belief. His yea, and Amen, are founded in himself, and not in our improvement. It is indeed blessed-and refreshing to the soul, when a regenerated child of GOD enjoys those love-tokens of GOD in CHRIST, by the lively actings of faith upon him. But the LORD’S grace is not founded in human merit; and therefore depends not upon human improvement. Oh! the preciousness of an unchangeable GOD’s purposes in CHRIST. Jeremiah 32:40 Hebrews 6:16..." -Robert Hawker

    "The consciousness of the love of JESUS, and, as Paul saith, the assurance, that JESUS loved me, and gave himself for me, even when matters in ourselves are most dark, and discouraging; these lift up the souls of the faithful above, all the things of time and sense, and induce a wise indifference to the mere dying circumstances around, in the blessed prospect of that city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is GOD. Reader! Is this the faith of GOD'S people? And is it your faith also?" -Robert Hawker

    "And, dearest JESUS! may not all thy redeemed behold thee, waiting with delight for employment in that high character of thine, our Advocate, for all thy people, since thou hast already acted as their propitiation, and made complete satisfaction for them in thy blood? Do thou, LORD, then, take up every cause, and plead in thine own infinite merits, and death, for every one of thine, against all the accusations of Satan, the demands of GOD'S law and justice, and all the fears and misgivings of unbelief, and our own guilty consciences! Oh! the blessedness of the assurance, JESUS can and will save to the uttermost all that come to GOD by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them!" -Robert Hawker

    Precious JESUS! be thou my wisdom, for then shall I delight myself in the LORD, and triumph in the Holy One of Israel. Fill my soul with true understanding and knowledge, for sure I am, in thee I shall find every possible happiness of light and life, and the fulness of joy in my soul. And while the wisdom of this world gives pride to the worldly wise; and the might of this world gives confidence to the mighty, and the rich man glorieth in his riches; this will be my glory, that I understand and know thee, that thou art the LORD, and that in these things thou delightest, 0 LORD. Here, LORD, let my soul rest convinced that however poor in myself, in thee I possess all things. Thou art the strength of my heart, and thou my portion for ever." -Robert Hawker

  2. #22
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    Re: Article: James Exposed

    I apologize for the tone of my last comment--I revised it a bit.

    The Sandemanian argument is one that needs a debate in and of itself--it really belongs to a different thread. I do not believe it is ever valid. This is because it assumes that one may LIVE different than one BELIEVES--a proposition not taught in the Bible. It is based on the false Latin notion that assensus, notitious, and fiducia (knowledge, belief, and trust) can be compartmentalized into independent experiences. The virtual whole of Western theology is based on this erroneous hermeneutic.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  3. #23
    Abraham Juliot
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    Re: Article: James Exposed

    I revised this statement for clarification.

    Original:

    Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

    Paul is not talking about works of faith in God's grace. He is talking about works which ought to be done in the flesh because of what the law commands. Paul is excluding works of the law in justification (specifically as it pertains to personal assurance). it is important to understand that Paul is expounding on we find the we are justified freely by God's grace. Paul is not trying to explain that the propitiation of our sins is not by works of the law. This is clearly established already in that the law promises nothing of the forgiveness of sins. Paul has already establish that propitiation is freely by God's grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus and that no man shall be justified (declared righteous) in the sight of God by works of the law. In chapter 4, Paul is teaching that no man shall be justified (declared righteous) in their own conscience by works of the law.
    New:

    Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

    Paul is not talking about works of faith in God's grace here. He is talking about works which ought to be done in the flesh because of what the law commands. Paul is excluding these works of the law in justification (specifically as it pertains to personal assurance). It is important to understand that Paul is expounding on how (in what way) we find that we are justified freely by God's grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus. Paul is not merely teaching that the propitiation of our sins is not by works of the law. This truth is established in that the law promises nothing of the forgiveness of sins. In Chapter 3, Paul established that propitiation through Christ is freely by God's grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus and he expounds on why no man shall be justified (declared righteous) in the sight of God by works of the law in chapters 1-3. In chapter 4, Paul is teaching that no man shall be justified (declared righteous) in their own conscience by works of the law and he is expounding on how (in what way) we find that we are justified freely by God's grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus.

  4. #24
    Abraham Juliot
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    Re: Article: James Exposed

    "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." [James 2:19]

    Dead faith is a faith which devils may have. James relates dead faith to the faith of a devil. When we understand what a devil can believe, we can understand that there is a kind of faith which does not and cannot receive the promises of God's grace. Dead faith cannot work by faith in God's promises of grace because it cannot receive God's promise of grace. it cannot receive Christ promises of grace because the flesh profits nothing, it is the Spirit that quickens.

    "And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God." [Mark 1:23-24] "And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God." [Luke 4:33-34] "And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation." [Acts 16:16-17] "Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done... But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God." [Acts 8:13, 20-21]

  5. #25
    Abraham Juliot
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    Re: Article: James Exposed

    The Sandemanian argument is one that needs a debate in and of itself--it really belongs to a different thread
    The nature of sandemanian faith is simply believing the testimony of the gospel (namely the doctrine of the gospel). It is true that even this itself must be a work of the law, because to deny the truth of the gospel would be a sin (such as believing a lie and charging God as being a liar). If the nature of saving faith is merely believing doctrine, then the law must curse for the want of saving faith. For every sin and transgression against the truth is cursed by God. If the law curses for the want of saving faith, then the law must command saving faith. For God curses souls for transgressing the commands of the law. Therefore, saving faith cannot be a mere belief of gospel doctrine (though he that comes to God in saving faith must believe gospel doctrine).

    There is a faith which the law commands. In as much as it is a sin to deny the truth, it must be a duty to believe the truth when it is proclaimed to the mind of the flesh. "And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?" [John 8:45-46]

    There is a faith which is not commanded in the law. In as much as it is a gift to receive the promises of God's grace, it must be a gift to believe the truth that I am in Christ when it is spiritually revealed to my heart through faith. "Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be." [Romans 4:18] "Now faith is a well-grounded assurance of that for which we hope, and a conviction of the reality of things which we do not see." [Hebrews 11:1, 1912 Weymouth New Testament] "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." [Hebrews 11:13] "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called." [Hebrews 11:17-18]

  6. #26
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    Re: Article: James Exposed

    The issue of what Sandemanian faith is is irrelevant. The issue is whether the faith described in the NT embraces notitia, assensus, and fiducia by definition. If it does, the James argument is dead and gone. That is all I have to say.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Article: James Exposed

    Here is your typical Reformed (i.e., churchianity) argument on the possibility of 'dead faith' that consists of notitia and assensus only.

    http://www.providencepca.com/essays/savingfaith.html

    This compartmental Greek/Latin philosophy would propose that it is possible for a person to BELIEVE contrary to what same person LIVES, which is nonsense. Every person LIVES what he/she BELIEVES. When anyone claims to believe contrary to what is lived, you can be absolutely sure that person is a liar. We all sin in many things, however, at the moment the sin is committed we are convinced in our minds that what we are doing is right and acceptable. So at that point we live in harmony with what we think is true in our minds. Repentance is the change in thinking that occurs when the Holy Spirit overpowers that unholy perspective and straightens out what we truly believe.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  8. #28
    Abraham Juliot
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    Re: Article: James Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    ...embraces notitia, assensus, and fiducia by definition.
    Is this for our Latin readers?

  9. #29
    Abraham Juliot
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    to BELIEVE contrary to what same person LIVES, which is nonsense.
    You are misrepresenting me in 2 ways:

    1. not addressing my quote.
    2. not addressing my actual view.

    I do not believe that a dead faith or demons actually believe the truth of the gospel. They may believe certain truths about God and the gospel, (that Jesus is the holy one of God...etc.) and they may make a deceitful confession of trusting in Christ, but they will always remain bitter towards the truth of God and void of true saving faith.

    You have contributed no arguments worth considering.

  10. #30
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
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    Re: Article: James Exposed

    You have contributed no arguments worth considering.
    Disagree, and I'd have to say the same for you.
    This is my signature.

  11. #31
    Abraham Juliot
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    Argument/objections which have been refuted are no longer worth considering. Arguments/objections which have been ignored and misrepresented ought to be refuted before one considers them worthless.

  12. #32
    Abraham Juliot
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    Brandon,
    can you address my questions on these 3 scriptures:

    1. What is your understanding of Matthew 6 in light of justification (the forgiveness of sins)? Can you address verse 14-15 in light of the surrounding context?

    "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name... And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors... For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses... Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?... Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?" [Matthew 6:9, 12, 14-15, 26, 30]

    1. Who are the people that "believed" in these verses?

    "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." [Luke 8:13] "Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man." [John 2:23-25]

    1. "For by it the elders obtained a good report... By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.." [Hebrews 11:2,4]

    Who obtained witness that Abel was righteous?
    Why did God testify of his gifts?
    Was God testifying of Abel's gifts or His gifts?
    Why is "gifts" plural and not singular?

    Thanks for your time.

  13. #33
    Abraham Juliot
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    Re: Article: James Exposed

    Higby, I appologize for my response... I thought you were referring to my response when you said, "Here is your typical Reformed (i.e., churchianity) argument on the possibility of 'dead faith' that consists of notitia and assensus only." But, it appears your were addressing the article and not my view.

    The Sandamainian argument is irrelevant to the dead faith discussion but it is very important because it is directly related to understanding the difference between the law of works and the law of faith. [This is a foundation point in my arguments] The law requires all who here the gospel to believe everything proclaimed in the scriptures in as much as it is a sin to deny the truth when it is heard. The law of faith calls whosoever will to believe on Christ as your hope and redeemer. There is no curse promised in the law of faith, only sure grace for the elect of God.

    James refers to a devilish faith when speaking of dead faith and James is referring to the necessity of works of faith for the manifestation and open witness [from God to others] that we have a living faith in Christ.

  14. #34
    Moderator Rlhuckle's Avatar
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    Re: Article: James Exposed

    Devils don't have faith. Devils know their place.

    Works is works is works. I don't buy the "faith-law" dichotomy.

    Mat 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

    Mat 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

    Mat 6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

    Mat 6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

    Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

    Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

  15. #35
    Abraham Juliot
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    Re: Article: James Exposed

    Devils don't have faith. Devils know their place.
    Devils do not have the faith of God's elect, they do not embrace the promises of the gospel through faith, they do not receive the spirit by faith, they do not come boldly to the thrown of grace to obtain help as needy sinners, and they do not live by the faith of the Son of God who did not love them nor give himself for them.

    Devils do and can assent to facts about God. "And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God." [Mark 1:23-24] "And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God." [Luke 4:33-34] "And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation." [Acts 16:16-17] "Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done... But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God." [Acts 8:13, 20-21]

    Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
    My view of James is that he is referring to works of faith done before God to the glory of God.

    "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." [Matthew 5:16]

    Works is works is works. I don't buy the \\"faith-law\\" dichotomy.
    Please explain yourself. Opinions are interesting, but not needful in discerning truth from error.

    "And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them." [Galatians 3:12]

    "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? [Galatians 3:2-3]

    "He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" [Galatians 3:5]

    In each of theses scriptures [below], does the law of works command the child of God to act (put on)? If not, what law has this command and if they are not works of the law, what kind of works are they?

    "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." [Romans 3:14] "And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." [Ephesians 4:24] "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." [Ephesians 6:11] ""And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him." [Colossians 3:10] "Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." [Colossians 3:12] "But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation." [1 Thessalonians 5:8]


  16. #36
    Moderator Rlhuckle's Avatar
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    Re: Article: James Exposed

    You said James refers to "devilish" faith. Devils don't have faith, they know their place. Do you now agree?

    You said James is talking about justification before men and that James is about doing works before God to the glory of God. I disagree and the passages I posted support the view that God is not interested in us doing works before men and since we are saved unto good works, God is already well aware of what He has ordained for us.

    Letting our "light" shine is dealing with the light of the true gospel--as the context shows. Theology verifies works; works do not verify theology. All the works in the world done before men will not verify one's theology.


    The law is established through faith (Rom 3:31)--there is no real dichotomy.

    James IS talking about justification before God in total contradiction to Paul when he says justification comes by works PLUS faith.

  17. #37
    Abraham Juliot
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    You said James refers to "devilish" faith. Devils don't have faith, they know their place. Do you now agree?
    I make a distinction between faith in Christ (trusting in His mercy) and assenting to the fact that Christ is the Holy one of God (trusting that He is from God).

    You said James is talking about justification before men and that James is about doing works before God to the glory of God.
    James is talking about being declared righteous before God and Man for the purpose of God bearing witness to man of our friendship with God... through works of faith.

    The passage you quoted from Matthew 6 is talking about self righteous Pharisees, not works from faith in Christ done unto God to the glory of God. You have no argument here unless Pharisees did works of faith unto God to the glory of God and it would be evil for God to bear witness to men (by their works of faith) that they were righteous by testifying of their gifts.

    "For by it the elders obtained a good report... By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.." [Hebrews 11:2,4]

    the passages I posted
    You're willing to discuss scriptures you post, but do you intend to address the scriptures I post. A man who is not interested in giving an answer and explanation to the scriptures is not fit to discuss the doctrine in question.

    Letting our "light" shine is dealing with the light of the true gospel--as the context shows.
    Yes, it includes the testimony of the grace of God as well as works which can only come from faith in Christ. "...that they may see your good works..."

    The law is established through faith (Rom 3:31)--there is no real dichotomy.
    Faith works by love and love is the fulfilling of the law... but the love which we walk in is more that the love which the law commanded... it is a love which feeds on the love of Christ and acts according to the hope of Christ. The law knows nothing of works which can only come from faith in Christ. Did the Law command Abraham to sacrifice His son, did the law command Rahab to hide the spies, does the law command us to lay down our lives for the brethren because Christ laid down His life for us? These works can only be done from faith in Christ and the law does not command such acts in as much as it does not command faith in Christ.

    You have not addressed the scriptures I brought up on acts of faith.

    James IS talking about justification before God in total contradiction to Paul when he says justification comes by works PLUS faith.
    Paul is talking about works and deeds of the law are contrary to justification in the conscience. James is talking about works of faith and the manifestation of our justification in the sight of God and man. There's no contradiction unless you interpret James as teaching these errors: 1. works of the law manifest our justification before God and man. 2. works of law or works of faith bring the assurance of personal justification to our conscience. 3. Works of faith must be the ground and cause of our justification rather than the means of declaring our justification.

    These 3 points are errors in interpreting James and I am constantly represented as though I hold to them.

    I agree with to Robert Hawker's rare view:

    "But what hath this to do with works of morality, or good deeds among men? This was a transaction wholly between God and the Patriarch, in the concern of his own soul, and had no reference whatever to the transactions of common life between man and man. It must be prejudice indeed, and of no ordinary kind, that would here from draw conclusions, that morality, and good deeds, among men, were the works James had in view when he said, and by works was Abraham's faith made perfect; when it is plain, the Apostle is, wholly discoursing upon this subject, in reference to the solemn transaction between God and the Patriarch. In like manner, as a further proof, in the instance of Rahab. No one for a moment can suppose, that the Apostle, when speaking of this woman being justified by works, alluded to works of goodness or morality. A woman of ill-fame could not be thought exemplary for any of these. And, with respect to her conduct towards her country, blessed as her faith, and works on that faith, were in the sight of God; yet, in the world's dictionary, she was treacherous towards man. When, therefore, we hear the Apostle demanding, was Yes! Her receiving the spies in peace, was a work of faith indeed, which proved how true, and genuine her faith was; and became the precious effect of that sure cause. And God the Holy Ghost elsewhere bears testimony to this act of her's, upon the faith the Lord had given her, when he saith: by faith the harlot Rahab perished not, with them that believed not, Hebrews 11:31. But how totally foreign are both these instances to the doctrine some have raised from this Chapter; which, while the Apostle is directly producing instances to shew, that a lively faith (as in those cases) must, and will everlastingly be acted upon, in proof that it is not a dead, unprofitable faith they draw conclusions, as if faith without morality was dead, being alone, and cannot justify before God." -Robert Hawker

  18. #38
    Moderator Rlhuckle's Avatar
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    Re: Article: James Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Abraham Juliot View Post
    I make a distinction between faith in Christ (trusting in His mercy) and assenting to the fact that Christ is the Holy one of God (trusting that He is from God).
    Well then, James cannot be talking about what you call "devilish faith" as faith differs greatly from a mere acknowledgement of facts. I can acknowledge the fact that gravity (or Christ or THE Christ) exists, but it is by faith that I know that God is in total control of it (as He is my salvation) and can suspend it (and keep His promise) at any time as is His will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abraham Juliot View Post
    James is talking about being declared righteous before God and Man for the purpose of God bearing witness to man of our friendship with God... through works of faith.
    This is your assertion--and that which remains in dispute. Scripture teaches that it is the content of ones faith that verifies one's works--only James promotes the view that it is one's works that verifies one's faith. I continue to disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abraham Juliot View Post
    The passage you quoted from Matthew 6 is talking about self righteous Pharisees, not works from faith in Christ done unto God to the glory of God. You have no argument here unless Pharisees did works of faith unto God to the glory of God and it would be evil for God to bear witness to men (by their works of faith) that they were righteous by testifying of their gifts.
    The Pharisees CLAIMED their works to be done to the glory of God--much the same as most today. Their erroneous theology bore witness to their self righteousness (to those with eyes to see). The application of Matthew 6 is for all. Christ is comparing and contrasting the Pharisees with true believers--who DO NOT do their works to be seen of men....

    When God testifies to men of others' gifts, they are plain to see by those intended to see them regardless because they are spiritually discerned (by excercise Heb 5:14). The blind cannot see anyway and are easily fooled by works performed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abraham Juliot View Post
    "For by it the elders obtained a good report... By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.." [Hebrews 11:2,4]



    You're willing to discuss scriptures you post, but do you intend to address the scriptures I post. A man who is not interested in giving an answer and explanation to the scriptures is not fit to discuss the doctrine in question.
    Okay, never mind.

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    Moderator Rlhuckle's Avatar
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    Re: Article: James Exposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Abraham Juliot View Post
    I make a distinction between faith in Christ (trusting in His mercy) and assenting to the fact that Christ is the Holy one of God (trusting that He is from God).
    Well then, James cannot be talking about what you call "devilish faith" as faith differs greatly from a mere acknowledgement of facts. I can acknowledge the fact that gravity (or Christ or THE Christ) exists, but it is by faith that I know that God is in total control of it (as He is my salvation) and can suspend it (and keep His promise) at any time as is His will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abraham Juliot View Post
    James is talking about being declared righteous before God and Man for the purpose of God bearing witness to man of our friendship with God... through works of faith.
    This is your assertion--and that which remains in dispute. Scripture teaches that it is the content of ones faith that verifies one's works--only James promotes the view that it is one's works that verifies one's faith. I continue to disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abraham Juliot View Post
    The passage you quoted from Matthew 6 is talking about self righteous Pharisees, not works from faith in Christ done unto God to the glory of God. You have no argument here unless Pharisees did works of faith unto God to the glory of God and it would be evil for God to bear witness to men (by their works of faith) that they were righteous by testifying of their gifts.
    The Pharisees CLAIMED their works to be done to the glory of God--much the same as most today. Their erroneous theology bore witness to their self righteousness (to those with eyes to see). The application of Matthew 6 is for all. Christ is comparing and contrasting the Pharisees with true believers--who DO NOT do their works to be seen of men....

    When God testifies to men of others' gifts, they are plain to see by those intended to see them regardless because they are spiritually discerned (by excercise Heb 5:14). The blind cannot see anyway and are easily fooled by works performed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abraham Juliot View Post
    "For by it the elders obtained a good report... By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.." [Hebrews 11:2,4]



    You're willing to discuss scriptures you post, but do you intend to address the scriptures I post. A man who is not interested in giving an answer and explanation to the scriptures is not fit to discuss the doctrine in question.
    Okay, never mind.

    I'll leave you with this as I agree to disagree:

    Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
    Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

    Note that the "it" being discussed is FAITH not works. What is the "gift" that God testified to? FAITH, not works.

    Works are filthy rags.

  20. #40
    Abraham Juliot
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    Re: Article: James Exposed

    Works of the flesh is filthy rags. The fruit of the Spirit is not the fruit of the flesh.

    The text in Hebrews says "gifts". It is a plural word. If it is God's gift of faith, why is it plural? Did able have plural faiths which God testified of?

    Moreover the text is highlight something Abel worked by faith... specifically he "offered" a better sacrifice and as we read the rest of the chapter we hear of Abraham offering his son by faith and Rahab hiding the spies by faith. These are not works of the law... They can only be works from the assurance of things hoped for.

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