Pristine Grace
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: The Intermediate State

  1. #1
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,673
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    75
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    120
    Thanked in
    66 Posts

    The Intermediate State

    Does the following passage tell us anything about the state of the elect between temporal death and the resurrection of the body? Most interpreters answer 'yes'. I answer 'no'.



    Ecclesiastes 9



    2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth and to him that sacrificeth not; as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
    3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea also, the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
    4 For to him that is joined with all the living there is hope; for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
    5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    6 As well their love, as their hatred and their envy, is perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun.
    7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God hath already accepted thy works.
    8 Let thy garments be always white; and let not thy head lack oil.
    9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of thy life of vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all thy days of vanity: for that is thy portion in life, and in thy labor wherein thou laborest under the sun.
    10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.
    11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.



    Your thoughts?
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  2. #2
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,834
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    148
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    94
    Thanked in
    62 Posts

    Re: The Intermediate State

    Bob, do you even consider Ecclesiastes as authoritative?
    This is my signature.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    boise
    Posts
    104
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Re: The Intermediate State

    I do not believe so either. Would Jude 6 or 2Peter 2:9 shed any light? Just a thought, let me know if I'm way off base.
    Col 2:9, (NASB), For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

  4. #4
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,673
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    75
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    120
    Thanked in
    66 Posts

    Re: The Intermediate State

    I personally do not consider Ecclesiastes to be part of what Christ referred to as the authoritative Old Testament scriptures (Luke 24:44: He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."). But we have not had any extended debate on the subject of the OT canon yet.

    There are basically two options here:

    1. The passage is teaching false doctrine.
    2. The passage is an inspired revelation of an 'under the sun' perspective which is short of God's full gospel truth.

    Either way, it can't be used as any authority on what constitutes the reality of what takes place on the other side of the curtain beyond death.

    The materialists (SDA's, JW's, etc.) use this passage as evidence that there is no consciousness between death and resurrection. In response to those arguments, 'evangelicals' use the passage as evidence that departed saints know NOTHING about history on the Earth past their moment of exit.

    There is no basis for either.

    Trav: Would Jude 6 or 2Peter 2:9 shed any light?

    On the particular question of whether departed saints know anything of what happens here on Earth after their death, I don't think so.

    --Bob
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wichita Falls, TX
    Posts
    415
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: The Intermediate State

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    Does the following passage tell us anything about the state of the elect between temporal death and the resurrection of the body? Most interpreters answer 'yes'. I answer 'no'.



    Ecclesiastes 9



    2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth and to him that sacrificeth not; as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
    3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea also, the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
    4 For to him that is joined with all the living there is hope; for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
    5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    6 As well their love, as their hatred and their envy, is perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun.
    7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God hath already accepted thy works.
    8 Let thy garments be always white; and let not thy head lack oil.
    9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of thy life of vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all thy days of vanity: for that is thy portion in life, and in thy labor wherein thou laborest under the sun.
    10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.
    11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.



    Your thoughts?
    For the elect to be absent from the body means being present with the Lord, then I have to agree with you, Bob. The answer would have to be no. How does one that is with the Lord have no knowledge nor wisdom?

    King James uses the word grave for the word sheol, but here is what Strong's defines the word sheol as;

    H7585
    שׁאל שׁאול
    she'ôl she'ôl
    sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
    From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.

    If it is being used as the word Hades or world of the dead, it could not be referring to the elect.
    Rom 8:18-21, (NASB), For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wichita Falls, TX
    Posts
    415
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: The Intermediate State

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    But we have not had any extended debate on the subject of the OT canon yet.
    Oh... what a quagmire that will be. I can not wait.
    Rom 8:18-21, (NASB), For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    boise
    Posts
    104
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Re: The Intermediate State

    I was thinking of something totally different when I read the verses you put up Bob, my bad. Please ignore my last post.
    Col 2:9, (NASB), For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

  8. #8
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,673
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    75
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    120
    Thanked in
    66 Posts

    Re: The Intermediate State

    For me, the most reasonable position is that the departed saints continue to observe earthly history after their departure; even that they serve mankind along with the elect angels. I can see nothing in scripture that teaches against this and several indications that it is true. Spiritism, however, is strictly forbidden in God's revelation in the Old Testament and there is no reason to suspect that it is acceptable in the New Covenant. Yet virtually all of the interpretations of life after death in popular movies and philosophy assume that spiritism is legitimate.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Holland, Michigan
    Posts
    1,835
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: The Intermediate State

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert R. Higby View Post
    For me, the most reasonable position is that the departed saints continue to observe earthly history after their departure; even that they serve mankind along with the elect angels. I can see nothing in scripture that teaches against this and several indications that it is true. Spiritism, however, is strictly forbidden in God's revelation in the Old Testament and there is no reason to suspect that it is acceptable in the New Covenant. Yet virtually all of the interpretations of life after death in popular movies and philosophy assume that spiritism is legitimate.
    Spiritism is the religion of the Brazilian rich and famous. It was invented by Alan Kardec. It is ROMAN CATHOLICISM WITH A VENGEANCE! Can't help but add this: Their favorite Bible book: JAMES!
    Grace Ambassador
    A pitiful servant of God; a pitbull guardian of the message of Grace

    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

Similar Threads

  1. Sermons Functionality Added
    By Brandan in forum Pristine Grace Gospel Discussions
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-07-19, 07:02 PM
  2. New Forum names and descriptions...
    By Brandan in forum News & Announcements Archive
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-07-05, 09:03 PM
  3. 'Christian' Liberalism
    By daftac in forum Old Miscellaneous Archive
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 08-18-02, 03:00 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •