Pristine Grace
Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: Is the universe mechanical?

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    England
    Posts
    30
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    19
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    18
    Thanked in
    11 Posts

    Is the universe mechanical?

    I basically believe that the universe is a mechanism, in both the material and the spiritual realms. There are material mechanisms and there are spiritual mechanisms. God alone exists outside the created, mechanical order, and the work of his Holy Spirit is a miraculous work that defies any need for mechanism. God alone has a true, libertarian, free will. Miracles are, so to speak, the direct intervention of God in the world. Now, I also believe that the Lord is upholding all things at all times by the word of his power, and so I'm in no way denying that God is, absolutely, the ultimate and immediate cause of all things. He is. I'm just saying that I also believe the created order works according to a great big mechanism, because that is how God has created it. In fact I'd say that the idea of mechanism is integral to the way God has created creation.

    When people say, "so we're all robots, then" I merely point out that robots are not biological, they don't think, they aren't alive and obviously, they don't make choices, they are not conscious, they are completely unaware of pain or pleasure, and in these ways we are different to robots, but in so far as robots are mechanisms, I say that this is something all created beings share in common. In fact, I believe mechanism is almost part of the definition of something being created. Cause and effect is the logic of God working its way out in the world.

    This is, at least in part, how I see the sovereignty of God over everything working. My question is, do other people think God's sovereignty works like that? And, how else could it work?
    Last edited by alt731; 01-22-19 at 06:32 AM.
    I don't like being corrected, but don't worry about that, do it anyway. I'll get over it.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to alt731 For This Useful Post:

    Brandan (01-20-19)

  3. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    England
    Posts
    30
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    19
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    18
    Thanked in
    11 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Simplici View Post
    Hi alt731!
    John von Neumann proved mathematically that the classical model of the mechanical Universe, adequately describing its experimentally established properties, cannot exist.

    Vadim
    Thanks Vadim! As it happens, I greatly appreciate the theory of quantum in-determinism. I basically believe it is yet another proof of God. When they say "event A happened completely at random" all they really mean is that nothing in creation caused event A to happen, which, as far as I'm concerned, means that something outside of creation caused it to happen. I believe that what they call "quantum indeterminism" is basically the means by which God upholds all things.

    But, in my original question, I actually meant one level up. Quantum in-determinism is true at the lowest level of all: the quantum level. My question was more focused on everything above that level. And, obviously, quantum in-determinism only pertains to the material world. I'm also talking about the spiritual world.
    Last edited by alt731; 01-22-19 at 11:51 AM.
    I don't like being corrected, but don't worry about that, do it anyway. I'll get over it.

  4. #3
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,835
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    150
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    94
    Thanked in
    62 Posts
    The observation effect ; double slit experiment is a wonderful proof of idealism.

  5. #4
    Administrator Greg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,138
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    19
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    15
    Thanked in
    8 Posts
    Didn't Bell's theorem postulate that all reality is non local?

  6. #5
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,835
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    150
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    94
    Thanked in
    62 Posts
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delaye...quantum_eraser

    This is the experiment I was referring to. Fun reading. We believers already know though that all things were determined by God's decree.

  7. #6
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,677
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    75
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    123
    Thanked in
    68 Posts
    The theory of quantum physics attempts to establish that the universe has no fixed mechanical laws where a variance to such a law can't be found. Einstein became obsessed with quantum physics and 'special relativity' in his later years after defining all the logical formulas for his theory of 'general relativity'. All of this does not matter for those who know that God in his person transcends all of the physical universe and He is not bound by space, time, or law. He created both fixed mechanical law (perfect order) and laws of disorder in the creation of the universe, this has to be obvious. The creation of both 'light' and 'darkness' as referred to in scripture applies even here.

    I think it has become obvious in scientific observation that no man will ever discover an 'edge' to the universe, define the size or shape of the universe. An interesting question here that scientists have asked is: if traveling in an absolutely straight line away from a point on the Earth into space above, does that travel route ultimately come back to right here where it started? No one knows for sure! Logically the travel would go farther from the Earth forever but we don't know what other laws God has created that apply to such travel.

  8. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Bob Higby For This Useful Post:

    alt731 (01-25-19), Brandan (01-24-19), Forester07 (01-26-19)

  9. #7
    Moderator ugly_gaunt_cow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,030
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    11
    Thanked in
    5 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by alt731 View Post
    I basically believe that the universe is a mechanism, in both the material and the spiritual realms. There are material mechanisms and there are spiritual mechanisms. God alone exists outside the created, mechanical order, and the work of his Holy Spirit is a miraculous work that defies any need for mechanism. God alone has a true, libertarian, free will. Miracles are, so to speak, the direct intervention of God in the world. Now, I also believe that the Lord is upholding all things at all times by the word of his power, and so I'm in no way denying that God is, absolutely, the ultimate and immediate cause of all things. He is. I'm just saying that I also believe the created order works according to a great big mechanism, because that is how God has created it. In fact I'd say that the idea of mechanism is integral to the way God has created creation.

    When people say, "so we're all robots, then" I merely point out that robots are not biological, they don't think, they aren't alive and obviously, they don't make choices, they are not conscious, they are completely unaware of pain or pleasure, and in these ways we are different to robots, but in so far as robots are mechanisms, I say that this is something all created beings share in common. In fact, I believe mechanism is almost part of the definition of something being created. Cause and effect is the logic of God working its way out in the world.

    This is, at least in part, how I see the sovereignty of God over everything working. My question is, do other people think God's sovereignty works like that? And, how else could it work?
    Technically speaking...

    The word 'robot' comes from the Czech word, robota, meaning "forced labour". Forced labour is slavery. Now, humans are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. So, ya... We're robots.

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ugly_gaunt_cow For This Useful Post:

    Brandan (03-14-19), Greg (03-15-19)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •