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Thread: Adam's Original Sin

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    Adam's Original Sin

    New article posted about Adam and original sin doctrine: Adam's Original Sin
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    Bob Higby (07-28-19)

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    A very interesting article. I would like a little more exegesis in Romans 5. The text says that by one man death reigned, seeming to say that Adam is the cause of his posterity's. Your system, while sound in many ways, does not appear to answer this. Other than that it is very well written and well argued. Nice job.

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    Rom 5:13-14, (NASB)
    13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

    This passages is basically stating that some of God's elect did not transgress a law covenant. A covenant of works given to Adam was "Do this and die." Then there is a law covenant at Sinai with Moses. These covenants are for the revealing of sin or the increasing of transgressions. Adam transgressed a law covenant in the Garden. And death reigned from Adam to Moses - even for those who weren't under a law covenant. All of the elect sin in the same manner as Adam - even without a law covenant.

    This explanation has been added to the article.
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    When I am able, in the middle of my present busy challenges, I will construct a response to arguments advanced by the neon gas lamp. So glad to have someone actually interacting again with attempted exposition of scripture and not merely expressing 'shouts' of 'I think', 'I know', 'I believe', 'I like', and 'I have experienced'.

    Bro. Bob
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Brandan (10-20-19)

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    Here is my podcast on this topic with brother Mike Smith from Joplin MO - https://www.pristinegrace.org/media.php?id=18435
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    Tim Pannell wrote the following to me in an e-mail:
    John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

    Here Jesus answers Peter, if It were Jesus’ will that this man were to live until the return of Him and not die, what is that to you ? Why does man by nature always feel the need to worry about another man is doing or should be doing? Why does man by nature always want to turn the attention off of Christ alone? Man by nature sometimes wants to focus on things pertaining to another person, so we don’t have to look at ourselves as other men, or look to only to the power of Christ in salvation. We by nature sometimes naturally want to help or hinder another for what we think is our own self gain by our own opinions. We want to think we have wisdom of men and can project that wisdom to help another. We by nature have a hard time examining ourselves and love to focus on arguing or seeking out the wrong in others. We naturally have pride and vanity in our hearts and are so blind to it because we will not, if left to ourselves, look at it. Men love darkness rather than light. Man by nature doesn’t see his sinfulness and will always go about to establish his own righteousness in his own ways; and if God had not intervened (revealed how He is just to justify the ungodly in His only begotten Son Jesus Christ), then all men by nature will do this until they die. I’m not sure about you but I see my nature in the way Peter is here. But what is this “wretched man that I am” to do?
    Firstly, “there is none righteousness, no not one.” Only the imputed righteousness of Christ to a sinner saved by grace by the mercy of God, and the payment of those sins by Christ, is that man given life. If we are of the flock of Jesus. If we are chosen in Christ cloaked in His righteousness . If Christ is revealed to us by God through the Holy Spirit and the preaching of the gospel. If we, through the power of God, are convicted of our sins through God given faith in Jesus Christ. We in the day of God’s power will repent of all dead works and former idolatry. We will by the power of God be drawn in His unbreakable powerful net. We will bear witness of the power and Glory of God in Jesus Christ. We will proclaim His power by His power to the world.
    2 Corinthians 4:4-7 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
    So if we were delivered, what we will do….we shall do the will of God through power in Christ. To be in Christ, is to receive all gifts of grace and mercies in Christ alone.
    If we were delivered from the darkness we shall do just as Jesus commands Peter to do here, when He tells Peter to “follow thou me”. The power and truth of the Holy Spirit which is the treasure found in the “earthen vessels, that the excellencey of the power may be of God, and not of us.” A power that is not of men by nature but a gift of grace in the Lord Jesus Christ. “All things” in salvation are in Christ alone. A knowledge of the true and living God, knowledge of the Glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, and this knowledge in all His sheep.


    John 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?


    And here an example of how the wisdom of men can misinterpret the word of God. These brethren instead of trusting in the Word of God, think that Jesus said that this certain man(John) wouldn’t die. And this is not the words of Jesus, but a view through the interpretation and wisdom of men, who took those words and made them into something they were not. Preachers and believers of the true gospel will know the truth, but just as man by nature is not perfect in every way(Christ is perfect), here, their view on the word of God was not the same as that He spoke. All those who are brought into Christ church are to test the words of each other, not for vain reasons or by are own opinions but by the word of God. Because we are not all perfect, but The Word of God is perfect. If there is a dispute over certain doctrines, Just as John does here, he brings it to light among the brethren. Not condemning the brethren, but having been given the truth through Christ very words, He relays the truth to them. He relays the truth in God’s word, not in his wisdom, but in the Word of God. He here repeats the words just as it was spoken to him by the Word of God. He didn’t add anything to the words Jesus spoke, He simply repeated it and left it in the Word of God.


    John 21:24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.


    Here the disciples after hearing the Word of God, come together as brethren on that truth, given through the testimony of this disciple, and “know that his testimony is true.” They trust in the Word of God. By the Word of God they are brought to the truth. Not by the wisdom of men but by The Word of God.

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    I am in process of composing my response, which will essentially be the same exegetical and logical arguments I have presented for years.

    The Neon Gas Lamp speaks of Brandan's teaching as 'sophistry', believe me, there is no higher sophistry in the history of churchianity than the notion that we can teach all the paradoxical contradictory lying bull-snort we want as the truth of God's revelation that can't be challenged. I cannot imagine a more lying paradox (TRUE contradiction) than this notion that God created both Satan and Adam as absolutely perfect sinless creatures without ANY impulse or desire to sin, yet both still contradicted the spotless and perfectly holy natures they were given in their creation by committing rebellious sin while simultaneously having no desire to sin whatsoever--perfect impulses and total repulsiveness in their inner being toward what they were doing. A good tree bore evil fruit in some strange 'free will' arrangement that existed only before the alleged 'fall'.

    Bob
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    Brandan (11-18-19)

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    Thanks Bob. Looking forward to it! Here is an interesting article I added to the library today that Mike Smith pointed me to: “The Death of Adam” - https://www.pristinegrace.org/media.php?id=18666
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    Thanks Brandan for this article, it hits the nail on the head. I do not believe the death as the consequence of Adam's sin is 'spiritual' death (dualism) that is promoted by most all teachers in the Augustinian tradition. It is the real and physical death that has occurred since Adam to him and all of his descendants. The fact that this occurred on 'the day that you eat of the tree' does not make God a liar, 'day' in the Hebrew (as in Gen. 2:4) can mean a period of time with a beginning and ending, an 'era' or time-frame. Adam's life of 900+ years does not nullify the fulfillment of God's promised curse in this instance.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Exegesis of Romans 5:12-21

    A Brief Exegesis of Romans 5:12-21 (ESV)

    NOTE: The position outlined here is one I have embraced, defended, and written about for many years. I am presenting it again as the old issue has come back again with the same challenges as before.

    Terms: The translation and meaning of ‘All’ in the New Testament writings, when referring to a certain mass of human beings, is generally agreed by those of a sovereign grace perspective to have both a ‘universal’ and ‘particular’ focus--depending on the context of usage. A universal ‘All’ refers to “all without exception”, whereas a particular ‘All’ refers to “all of a certain class, character, or distinctive purpose”. Scripture uses ‘All’ when referring to all in the human race, all of God’s elect in all places, or all reprobates in all places.

    Prior to looking at Romans 5, I will cite two parallel passages from Paul that clearly pave the way for a proper understanding of his more extensive narrative in the passage under scrutiny.

    Romans 11:29-32

    For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

    The ‘All’ referred to in Paul’s conclusion of this passage is clearly the particular scope of ‘All’; the totality of the elect of God from Jews and Gentiles are both those consigned to disobedience and those receiving mercy. It is reasonable to conclude that no other interpretation is logically possible, unless one subscribes to a theology of paradox or contradiction as justifying an out-of-context teaching of those ‘consigned to disobedience’ being universal.

    1 Corinthians 15:20-23

    But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

    We have the same conclusion here as in the Romans 11 passage above. The particular ‘All’, the totality of all elect saints of all time; these only are in focus. Nothing universal that includes the non-elect masses of humanity is in consideration. Those who died ‘in Adam’ are the same group of elect saints exactly as those who are made alive ‘in Christ’.

    The same parallel of the elect as those condemned in Adam and those redeemed in Christ will be more extensively elaborated on in Romans 5:15-21. The 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 5 narratives have the same meaning, in no manner is Romans 5 esoteric in relation to the other passages above.

    Romans 5:12-14

    Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

    The initial focus of Paul in these starting verses is not yet expressing the parallel and contrast between Adam, Christ, and the elect’s identity in both that will come in the following verses. The parallel & contrast teaching regarding Adam and Christ starts in verse 15 and continues through verse 21. But verses 12-14 are not describing a relationship between Adam, Christ, and the elect; they are instead describing the relationship between sin, death, and law. Wrong interpretations start with attempting to force the more universal focus of the sin/death/law narrative in 12-14 onto the later verses in 15-21 contrasting Adam and Christ.

    When Paul states that ‘sin came into the world through one man’, he is not yet describing any relationship of Adam, Christ, and the elect. He is simply stating the historical point when the phenomenon of sin and resulting death began. Adam’s representation of others (the elect who will sin in his likeness) is not yet mentioned, only that all men following Adam in history sinned personally and died (whether knowing good and evil by specific laws of God impressed on the conscience or not). We see elsewhere in God’s revelation that each descendent of Adam is conceived in iniquity and goes astray from that point forward. But Adam was given a single law to obey following his ‘very good’ creation; his creation (as well as the direct creation of every elect soul by God) was perfect in relation to God’s temporal and ultimate purposes for him. In addition, his creation was imperfect by design with respect to his spiritual nature. He was ‘naked and not ashamed’ with respect to the knowledge or experience of evil in contrast to God’s goodness which was destined to follow. He did not know anything was wrong with himself. Though Adam’s experience (unique in the history of humanity) is not called ‘sin’ until the actual act of disobedience was committed, he was created with a ‘fleshly’ spiritual nature (naked but not ashamed) that was guaranteed to commit sin when the circumstance destined by God to cause it occurred. Before that point there was no knowledge of evil; Adam lived in a perfect environment with unlimited blessing and abundance to satisfy his every human desire. He had nothing but gratitude to God for all things given to him and complained of nothing. It was only when the threat of losing his wife Eve was presented that he first experienced the knowledge of evil and sinned deliberately in eating the fruit, though he knew (was not deceived) that the serpent had lied and that God would carry out the promise of death in the era (‘day’ with beginning and end) of the time then present as a consequence of what he had done. He took the mercies of God for granted and ‘took a chance’ that God might provide an ultimate remedy to mitigate the consequences of his sin. But God did not hold this sin against him in His own eternal and ultimate purpose of salvation in Christ.

    In saying that ‘death reigned from Adam to Moses’ even to those that did not sin in Adam’s likeness, it becomes clear that Paul is distinguishing between the sin of non-elect and elect humanity. The elect commit sin personally in Adam’s likeness (in Adam ‘All’ elect die). Because of their ‘very good’ creation in the image of God, they reach a point in their created state (though tainted with iniquity from conception) where they come to know good and evil and begin to wonder about ultimate truth. The elect have some ‘hope’ of future redemption even in their unregenerate state, though not knowing how it will come about or what it consists of. But the non-elect sin as strict rebels from the beginning of their existence; having no ‘knowledge of good’ or hope of salvation in their experience but only a knowledge of evil that is purely impulsive and not informed by any commandment of God. They do not care about their inevitable damnation and spend life ignoring any promptings of conscience that might betray their hopeless state.

    Verse 15:

    But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

    The ‘many’ here are the true elect of God only. They died through one man’s trespass since the reality of death as the consequence of sin originated in Adam. But Adam was only their representative in the manner of his sin (they sinned in his likeness), he was not their substitute. Christ’s gift of eternal justification in the immeasurable Grace of God is something imputed to the elect, Adam’s personal sin was not imputed to them but was rather exemplary in representation of how all elect were guaranteed to sin in God’s plan, preparing the way for their redemption in Christ.

    The originator of the doctrine of imputed sin in Adam to all mankind was Augustine. This was his only doctrine of imputation. He never affirmed the dual imputation of 2 Cor. 5:21, that of Christ’s perfect righteousness as the God/man transferred to all elect believers and their sin correspondingly transferred to Christ in His atoning sufferings and death on the cross. The Augustinian doctrine is Platonic, Justinian, Pelagian, and Arminian; it is a dispensational notion that a spotless and perfect Adam was the substitute of all mankind when he sinned in a state of autonomous free-will ‘before the fall’--though having absolutely no desire, motive, or impulse to sin. In this teaching all mankind goes to eternal torture ‘without measure and without end’ to satisfy some enigmatic principle of ‘eternal justice’--on the basis of Adam’s sin imputed alone--not due to their own personal sin. In the Augustinian (Neo-Platonic) view, one man’s sin condemning the whole world to eternal torture by substitution could only be achieved by a perfectly sinless man having autonomous free-will. This is the type of ‘absolute’ human free will having the ability to veto God’s will espoused by Plato, Justin, Pelagius, and post-Reformation Arminianism.

    Verses 16-17:

    And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

    For God’s elect, the free gift of justification in Christ’s eternal covenant of Grace with the Father is infinitely unlike the condemnation that all elect experience in the likeness of Adam’s sin. With Christ we have substitution or imputation of his infinitely perfect Divine/human life, atoning death, and resurrected life at the right hand of God. He also is our perfect representative before God, very unlike Adam being our sinful representative of how all the elect were guaranteed to sin in the imperfect design of our souls created by God.

    Verses 18-21:

    Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
    Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    What glorious words are expressed here in Paul’s conclusion of the matter! The effects of Christ’s eternal redemption of the elect sealed up by His substitutionary atoning death and resurrection (Dan. 9:24) are the fruit of an eternal covenant in Christ sealed by the Trinity in God’s transcendent eternity! God’s elect from the human race (Christ only excepted) are destined to be conceived or created in iniquity, commit sin deserving only of condemnation according to the Law, experience death in the body (which is not true death—those who believe in Christ will ‘never die’ [John]), and become the subjects of an eternal redemption in glory where in God’s right hand they will experience unimaginable pleasures forevermore in worshipping Him and fellowshipping with Christ personally as well as all elect saints of all ages! I look forward to reigning with Christ and spending my one-on-one time with Him on His throne (which I expect to be equal for ALL the elect!)
    Last edited by Bob Higby; 11-22-19 at 01:57 AM. Reason: fixes to presentation
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    Good stuff Bob! - Turned into Article form: https://www.pristinegrace.org/media.php?id=18725
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    Bob, here is another good article from 1895 on the fall of Adam... https://www.pristinegrace.org/media.php?id=18726
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    The tenor of the article is excellent overall. I do not subscribe to Curry's view of the hereditary nature of a 'fall' of Adam, as all know who have read my writing for years. He stated: The total, inherent, hereditary depravity of the human race is essentially and inseparably connected with this subject. and explained the 'fall' as hereditary in another area of his article. In my conviction based on scripture, Adam 'sinned'--that's it. His only 'fall' was expulsion from the wonderful paradise that God originally placed him in with his wife--plus final death in the shadow creation he was originally placed. The FINAL and FIRST creation is what is coming at Christ's last Advent.

    God creates each human spirit in iniquity, with the purpose of ultimately receiving glory in the salvation He provides in Christ. This is the ancient doctrine substantiated by prophets, patriarchs, kings (David), and the just priests of Israel such as Onias III who was murdered by Pharisaic Judaism.

    I found it interesting that Curry seems to support the position that the Zechariah referred to by Christ who was murdered by Pharisaic Judaism was the father of John, not a Zechariah murdered 800 years earlier in the temple courtyard. This has been my position for many years, the 'wicked and adulterous generation' Christ condemned had been around for a very long time and was still present in His day performing current murders.

    Bro. Bob
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    The second article is really good. I challenge the speculative notion: "except Adam had died, he would have abided alone, and the world would never have been peopled through him.". The Bible does not speak in terms of what might have occurred if. It is only concerned with the sure and certain purposes of God. Some 'reformed' teachers have proposed that Adam would have gained eternal life for all of his descendants IF he had obeyed, well, there is no IF. This is nonsense. He was destined to disobey the original covenant of continued life given in the garden to prepare the way for God's glory in His destined redemption of the elect in Christ.

    Bro. Bob
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob
    I challenge the speculative notion: "except Adam had died, he would have abided alone, and the world would never have been peopled through him.". The Bible does not speak in terms of what might have occurred if. It is only concerned with the sure and certain purposes of God."


    Bob, agree completely... I stay away from conditionals whenever possible. I would say only the Lord Jesus or the Apostle Paul would I listen to concerning conditionals.... : Matthew 11:21, (KJV), Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob
    The tenor of the article is excellent overall.
    Yes I agree - and concur with your objections... I was thrilled to see articles from the 19th century supporting our understanding. I knew you would enjoy.
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