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Thread: By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

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    Brandon

    although I've run into folks that believe in justification at the cross - but deny the eternal aspect of it. It seems contradictory to me.
    Right that's inconsistent, I mean its still Justification before you are born.

    A couple guys, Ken Wimer and David Simpson, they even went so far as to say that justification at the cross is truth, but justification from eternity is false doctrine.
    Yeah I know of those guys. Bill Parker use to be against it, but now I think he accepts it.

    Amongst some in the free grace camp, those that deny justification from eternity tend to make a huge deal about the level of tolerance that is acceptable. They primarily see salvation PRIMARILY (like a free willer or typical low grace calvinist) in conversion and that leads them to treat the their gospel like it's a life or death situation, instead of resting in the sovereignty of God. Example, they make it their mission to "defend the gospel" as they know it, acting almost scared that someone would think differently from them - scared to death that wiley characters like me might lead folks astray with my supposed tolerance for free willers. And these are people that claim to be "supralapsarian" - yet they reject justification from eternity. They reject the doctrine because they have a different worldview - a different mindset, and at worst, have erected for themselves a mutable god, swayed by the events of history. At best, they are just blissfully inconsistent.
    I hear yea ! I have come to believe that EJ is a essential gospel doctrine, because it highlights the Cross !

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    Yes, I just saw Bill Parker a couple weeks ago here in Ashland. He is indeed on board with Justification from Eternity. I remember when he wasn't there and remember praying for him and the church in Albany after hearing that nonsense from Wimer and Simpson. It's been a real blessing to see him and the church here in Ashland and there in Albany convinced of the truth, and not swayed by the weird objections of the JFE opponents.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandan View Post
    Yes, I just saw Bill Parker a couple weeks ago here in Ashland. He is indeed on board with Justification from Eternity. I remember when he wasn't there and remember praying for him and the church in Albany after hearing that nonsense from Wimer and Simpson. It's been a real blessing to see him and the church here in Ashland and there in Albany convinced of the truth, and not swayed by the weird objections of the JFE opponents.
    Speaking of Parker. He says that all men without exception have a responsibility to seek the Lord. He also believes Acts 17:30 is God commanding all men without exception to repent. Whats your thoughts on that please ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brightfame52 View Post
    Speaking of Parker. He says that all men without exception have a responsibility to seek the Lord. He also believes Acts 17:30 is God commanding all men without exception to repent. Whats your thoughts on that please ?
    Hello Anthony, statements like those in my opinion are difficult to understand. Personally I think this is an old duty-faith shibboleth that has remained in the speech of some sovereign grace baptists. Those who are beneficiaries of the everlasting covenant of grace are obligated to repent and believe the Lord and His promises after coming to believe the truth (which is a gift). Although I really dislike thinking of it as a duty or obligation as we know that it is the Lord who does all of this on behalf of us. He savingly sustains us, and preserves us in faith.

    However the reprobate is also obligated to obey the Lord in all things. They are obligated to honor Him, to believe what He says, to believe what He says about His Gospel (which is not necessarily true saving faith), to Honor Him in all their doings, to obey His commands, and to stop their rebellion and NOT SIN (an impossibility), to TURN from their sin (repentance - not evangelical repentance though). However, they are not obligated to have the gift of faith. They are not obligated to be regenerated and have true evangelical repentance and true evangelical faith. These things are only a gift of God. How can any be man duty-bound to have a gift?

    You will often hear some very mild duty-faith preaching amongst the sovereign grace baptists due to the failure to differentiate between believing the truth outwardly (just believing that the facts of the Bible are true - that the Gospel is true isn't necessarily salvation and SAVINGLY believing the truth (true faith which includes an element of assent/agreement - the conscience also sees that the propositions of the Gospel are for the individual). And I think this is also due to the influence that Spurgeon's preaching had on Henry Mahan. Spurgeon was an amazing fellow, but this would be one of his weakest points as a preacher in my opinion. HOWEVER, I myself overlook this when I hear it as it's never tied to gospel offerism or conditional salvation which is the true danger of duty-faith preaching in my opinion. Arthur Pink used to talk this way as well, that is he held to a form of duty-faith, but rejected the well-meant offer.

    I maintain a close fellowship with Bill and other Sovereign Grace preachers, and I just haven't broached the subject with them. Sometimes some old shibboleths like duty-faith or even freewiller shibboleths remain in our speech long after our conversion. I'm of the mindset that these sovereign grace preachers haven't sat down and thought through the implications of all of their speech. I'm sure the same is true for me as well....

    I've been around long enough to see Bro. Parker go from not believing justification from eternity to being a strong promoter of it. So I try to be patient as these men learn more and more of the truth and I'll just rely on the Holy Spirit to bring that illumination in time... I can assure you though that they are the farthest thing there is from believing in a conditional salvation, otherwise I would have not moved my family 500 miles away from our home in Missouri to be a part of their congregation here in Ashland!

    See the following article to see what I mean regarding shibboleths.... https://www.pristinegrace.org/media.php?id=20213
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    brandon

    However the reprobate is also obligated to obey the Lord in all things.
    Of course, but as His creature and under law.

    They are obligated to honor Him, to believe what He says, to believe what He says about His Gospel (which is not necessarily true saving faith),
    I agree with that, but thats where its tricky, in that believing what Gods Gospel declares doesnt reward with Salvation, but thats not made clear. Also, naturally men are opposed to, at enmity with Gods Gospel because it reveals a God of Sovereign Grace and Election that saves a particular people, even with the exclusion of others.

    You will often hear some very mild duty-faith preaching amongst the sovereign grace baptists due to the failure to differentiate between believing the truth outwardly (just believing that the facts of the Bible are true - that the Gospel is true isn't necessarily salvation and SAVINGLY believing the truth (true faith which includes an element of assent/agreement - the conscience also sees that the propositions of the Gospel are for the individual).
    Which is dangerously subtle, reminds me of Christs words, that if possible could deceive the very elect !

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    brandon

    However the reprobate is also obligated to obey the Lord in all things.
    We need to be careful so this cannot be construed as God making a conditional promise to save the non elect if he fulfills this obligation. That turns into conditional salvation on the sinner which is a false Gospel.

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    Of course. Saying men are obligated to obey the Lord should not be tied with salvation. Neonomians like to call faith a work. I dislike that too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandan View Post
    Of course. Saying men are obligated to obey the Lord should not be tied with salvation. Neonomians like to call faith a work. I dislike that too.
    Exactly. Now as creatures, man is obligated to keep Gods Law like Adam was, but thats not Salvaic, and even if man could fulfill that obedience, which he cant, but if he did, it only amounts to this Lk 17:10


    So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

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    Christ's Death God-ward accomplished much for those He died for before they ever believe in Him. For example, That which the elect are by nature as other men, children of wrath Eph 2:3, Enemies Rom 5:10, enemies in their minds by wicked works Col 1:21, yet because of Christ's finished work for them, they are not the objects of God's Wrath, not ever, but only objects of His Mercy. You see, with them, their sinfulness by nature only constitutes them what God afore ordained, Vessels of Mercy Rom 9:23

    23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    All the Legal condemnation that they deserve along with others, the vessels of wrath, theirs has been effectively dealt with by the Cross of Jesus Christ, for He died for all their sins in the flesh. Even after the New Birth, that Old Man that they remain in, and what carries the New Man, it still is very sinful, because it was born out of corruptible seed, the fallen Adam. Their sin nature of adam is not eradicated, but is still alive and well in the Saint of God, for that is Paul's argument in Rom 7 and Johns point in 1 Jn 1:8. However that Old Man with all of its deceitful lusts is still the object of God's mercy, David said as a New Creature Ps 130:3

    If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?126

    But that Old Man born out of Adam shall experience an Adoption, a Salvation in the Day of Redemption, Paul calls it The Redemption of the Body, this Body of Death Rom 7:24 cp Rom 8:23, so this Body and its deeds can never be under God's Legal Condemnation and Wrath, His Fatherly Chastening, Yes, but never wrath and condemnation.

    The Sinful Bodies of the Saints, that did incur condemnation in Adam Rom 5:18, but it [The merited condemnation] was imputed to Christ's Charge, their Surety and Head, and He came Legally and imputatively under God's Wrath and Condemnation for them, in their stead, so not at anytime are they condemned by God's Law, but to the contrary are made objects of mercy, Mercy and Condemnation does not mix !

    So the Elect are Blessed and privileged above others who are born sinners, for they had no Surety !

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