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    The Baptists...

    Just curious, i knew some baptists that doesnt allow their men members to have long hairs and for women shouldn't wear pants or short pants. I think manipulating or imposing a dos and donts rule for their members is cultic in nature. I also met other baptists that doesnt have this weird "rule." I also have a friend that their church only uses King James Bible, and i have also another baptist friend that it's okay to use other versions such as NIV, NKJV etc.

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    Re: The Baptists...

    Originally posted by Elijah
    Just curious, i knew some baptists that doesnt allow their men members to have long hairs and for women shouldn't wear pants or short pants. I think manipulating or imposing a dos and donts rule for their members is cultic in nature. I also met other baptists that doesnt have this weird "rule." I also have a friend that their church only uses King James Bible, and i have also another baptist friend that it's okay to use other versions such as NIV, N KJV etc.
    you are correct. Most independent fundamental baptist churches lean that way. But what is long hair? They like the men to have short hair(off the ear and taperd in the back) and the want the females to dress modestly, dresses and kulottes only.... no pants and yes we prefer KJV. I currently attend a SBC church.
    Character....it's doing whats right when no one is watching. J.C. Watts

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    I also heard some preachers or christians pray for the "salvation of the baptists" the same way they prayed for the catholics. Are some baptists sects cultic or something?

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    Re: The Baptists...

    Originally posted by Elijah
    Just curious, i knew some baptists that doesnt allow their men members to have long hairs and for women shouldn't wear pants or short pants. I think manipulating or imposing a dos and donts rule for their members is cultic in nature. I also met other baptists that doesnt have this weird "rule." I also have a friend that their church only uses King James Bible, and i have also another baptist friend that it's okay to use other versions such as NIV, NKJV etc.
    When you say "baptist" you could mean just about anything these days.

    Well, I agree with you that a church shouldn't impose made up rules on its congregation... However, the Bible speaks against men having long hair (1 Cor 11:14) and men and women dressing modestly. So what is modest? I'd say it's anything that covers the body and does not draw attention to itself. So are pants on a woman modest? If the entire congregation wears dresses (and were adament about it), then I would advise my wife to wear a dress. Why? For the sake of the brethren and to keep them from stumbling. Also, in that situation wearing pants would draw attention to oneself and then that person would no longer be living out the principals of Scripture.

    My wife wears pants. She says they are more comfortable for her. My church hasn't mentioned anything about it - http://www.gracebaptistchapel.org (my wife isn't in that picture on the home page because she's the one taking it) - and most of the other women wear dresses or skirts. Why? I imagine it's just their routine. I happen to like skirts and dresses on women better anyway - makes them look more feminine to me. But that's just my opinion.

    Also I can't imagine a church these days recommending the NIV as a legitimate translation for primary bible study. I still use it and find it useful as a commentary; but I'd suggest sticking with a literal translation like the KJV, NKJV, NAS, and etc. for your bible study. However with that being the case, I wouldn't call a KJV only church a cult. The KJV is definitely a fine bible translation - and if there are some that are so convicted for whatever reasons that insist on the use of the KJV ONLY - then they are standing up for what they think is right. If I found myself a member of a KJV only church, I'd probably adapt and use the KJV publicly and my NKJV privately even though I strongly disagreed with their belief. But that's of course not until they heard what I thought was the truth. That is a non-essential belief that I think believers can compromise on for the sake of the brethren.

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    Re: Re: The Baptists...

    Originally posted by grebel
    When you say "baptist" you could mean just about anything these days.

    Well, I agree with you that a church shouldn't impose made up rules on its congregation... However, the Bible speaks against men having long hair (1 Cor 11:14) and men and women dressing modestly. So what is modest? I'd say it's anything that covers the body and does not draw attention to itself. So are pants on a woman modest? If the entire congregation wears dresses (and were adament about it), then I would advise my wife to wear a dress. Why? For the sake of the brethren and to keep them from stumbling. Also, in that situation wearing pants would draw attention to oneself and then that person would no longer be living out the principals of Scripture.

    My wife wears pants. She says they are more comfortable for her. My church hasn't mentioned anything about it - http://www.gracebaptistchapel.org (my wife isn't in that picture on the home page because she's the one taking it) - and most of the other women wear dresses or skirts. Why? I imagine it's just their routine. I happen to like skirts and dresses on women better anyway - makes them look more feminine to me. But that's just my opinion.

    Also I can't imagine a church these days recommending the NIV as a legitimate translation for primary bible study. I still use it and find it useful as a commentary; but I'd suggest sticking with a literal translation like the KJV, NKJV, NAS, and etc. for your bible study. However with that being the case, I wouldn't call a KJV only church a cult. The KJV is definitely a fine bible translation - and if there are some that are so convicted for whatever reasons that insist on the use of the KJV ONLY - then they are standing up for what they think is right. If I found myself a member of a KJV only church, I'd probably adapt and use the KJV publicly and my NKJV privately even though I strongly disagreed with their belief. But that's of course not until they heard what I thought was the truth. That is a non-essential belief that I think believers can compromise on for the sake of the brethren.
    Character....it's doing whats right when no one is watching. J.C. Watts

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    A baptist church that i know of here in the Philippines uses KJV. Modern english is 3rd or 4th language for majority of the people here, do this type of baptist church teach their congregation old english?

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    Originally posted by Elijah
    A baptist church that i know of here in the Philippines uses KJV. Modern english is 3rd or 4th language for majority of the people here, do this type of baptist church teach their congregation old english?
    we have one of these churches in my town and they don't speak in elizabethian english (although some pray in that language)! LOL

    the thing about baptists is that it is the largest and perhaps most divergent group within protestantism. baptist refers merely to their position on baptism (i.e., that we baptize believers by immersion) and may refer to nothing else. many bible churches and non-denominational churches today are also "baptistic" in that respect although would not call themselves Baptists.

    what you are describing is a specific sect within baptists as ron2t mentioned called fundamentalists. they are separatists and usually are non-denominational (which means they've almost created a denomination of their own) since they've separated from all other baptist denominations (e.g., CBA, GARBC, Regular Baptists, SBC, etc.) since they think they're too liberal. this is what that church in our area did. it used to be associated with the denomination of my church (i.e., GARBC) until we became too liberal in their view (since we didn't adhere to all of the do's and don'ts that they prescribe and are not KJV only, etc.).

    i would probably try and stay away from this group since in my experience they destroy everything in their wake and have set themselves up as the judge of everyone else. i have a friend from high school that goes to this church and he was less than kind when he heard that i wasn't KJV-only.
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
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    Well I don't believe in any denominations period! Hmmm, new thread?

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    Originally posted by grebel
    Well I don't believe in any denominations period! Hmmm, new thread?
    sounds like an interesting discussion...have at it!
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
    --Erasmus

    A room without books is a body without soul.
    --Cicero

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    baptist

    Sorry to grebel for accidently copying your statement but your words expressed what i actually wanted to say but i dont type well. as for you last statement, i like to think of myself as a biblecist who attends a baptist church because they preach the bible.
    Character....it's doing whats right when no one is watching. J.C. Watts

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    baptist

    Last week I went to a non denom bible church and it was interesting. I went fully expecting this to be a charismatic church, but it was very sedate and midway thru th sermon I realized it was a soverign grace bible church.
    Character....it's doing whats right when no one is watching. J.C. Watts

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    Hi Ron,

    Sometimes you just never know what you're gonna find when you visit a church. It's pretty neat that you stumbled across a sovereign grace church because there just aren't too many of them!

    Brandan

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    baptist

    Originally posted by grebel
    Hi Ron,

    Sometimes you just never know what you're gonna find when you visit a church. It's pretty neat that you stumbled across a sovereign grace church because there just aren't too many of them!

    Brandan
    stumbled? thats what I thought at first. here i am looking for a church (baptist of course) and God sends me to this church that my wife's employer attends. now i' thinkin its charismatic but i follow the Lords leading and He gives me what i've been looking for ......... heavenly.... i'll be going there again this sunday.
    Character....it's doing whats right when no one is watching. J.C. Watts

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    Yes, Divine Providence is something to behold. Do you know if this sovereign grace church is baptistic? It may very well be a baptist church (a lot of sovereign grace baptist churches I know don't use the name "baptist" in the church name.)

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    Originally posted by grebel
    Yes, Divine Providence is something to behold. Do you know if this sovereign grace church is baptistic? It may very well be a baptist church (a lot of sovereign grace baptist churches I know don't use the name "baptist" in the church name.)
    I'm not sure but I'll get more info this sunday, did I ever tell you that I found this web site by following you home from Lucianne.com. You said something(apparently of interest to me) so i clicked on your name and saw your home page and here i am. thanks ron
    Character....it's doing whats right when no one is watching. J.C. Watts

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    Re: The Baptists...

    I am in a GARB church and I don't find the legalism in my church that you are describing in other GARB churches. It is KJV only but the pastor will reference another translation if it will help to explain a passage of scripture further.

    No one is really picky about skirts or pants or long hair or whatever.

    There are some people in the church that claim that the KJV is the only inspired word of God (which I don't subscribe to but I think only the most faithful of translations should be described as such) but they are tolerated in that belief. If you teach anything out of the bible, it is frowned upon to teach out of anything that isn't KJV.

    Legalism is frowned upon and I think that might be a problem in GARBC churches over in the east. But the GARB Churches in the midwest seem to reject legalism.

    I am of the camp of sovereign grace through the teaching of my youth pastor (Who also slipped me a copy of Macarthur's "Gospel according to Jesus" when no one was looking.) but I sometimes wonder if the head pastor is only a 4. 5 Calvanist.

    I plan to have that conversation with him. I know there is a strong contingent of godly men who believe as I do but I sometimes hear some Arminian type statements from people in my own church. I am still feeling it out.

    Anyways, thought I would add to the discussion.

    I am new here and I love this message board.

    God bless you all.

    Yoder

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    Re: The Baptists...

    Quote Originally Posted by Amish Dave
    I am in a GARB church and I don't find the legalism in my church that you are describing in other GARB churches.
    i'm in a GARB church over in the NW...though i've been told (and have experienced) that we are not a typical GARB church. we are totally anti-legalism (though there are some old folks who still try and cling to old traditions), calvinist friendly (all the staff is ~4 calvinists, whatever that might mean to some), and definitely not KJV-only (there were a couple of KJV-only that were in the area but have since left GARB because we're much too liberal for them ).

    Quote Originally Posted by Amish Dave
    I am new here and I love this message board.
    welcome to the forum dave! good to have you here!
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
    --Erasmus

    A room without books is a body without soul.
    --Cicero

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    Re: The Baptists...

    My understanding is that the GARB at least started with very Calvinistic roots. Legalism is a problem in almost all churches but certain churches and denominations do seem more prone. I have found most often that legalism and antinomianism walk side by side. Man sets aside God's law and says "we're not under the law, we're under grace" and then creates his own laws that man must follow (don't drink, tithe, etc.). The very nature of Baptist church government often prevents denominational regularity so that if I attend a southern baptist church, the southern baptist church 5 minutes away can be vastly different. Baptist denominations seem to exist for the sake of pooling money to support mission work and other activities rather than because agreement exists in the area of doctrine (with the exception of course of believer's-only baptism). This produces the disadvantage of being unwilling to learn from other's mistakes, while it also provides the advantage of a mistake becoming a standard.

    Sola Gratia,
    WildBoar
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: The Baptists...

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    My understanding is that the GARB at least started with very Calvinistic roots. Legalism is a problem in almost all churches but certain churches and denominations do seem more prone. I have found most often that legalism and antinomianism walk side by side. Man sets aside God's law and says "we're not under the law, we're under grace" and then creates his own laws that man must follow (don't drink, tithe, etc.). The very nature of Baptist church government often prevents denominational regularity so that if I attend a southern baptist church, the southern baptist church 5 minutes away can be vastly different. Baptist denominations seem to exist for the sake of pooling money to support mission work and other activities rather than because agreement exists in the area of doctrine (with the exception of course of believer's-only baptism). This produces the disadvantage of being unwilling to learn from other's mistakes, while it also provides the advantage of a mistake becoming a standard.

    Sola Gratia,
    WildBoar
    thanks for your perspective wildboar but i think your assessment is a bit of a misrepresentation/misunderstanding. the reason for the lack of "regularity" is because of something called soul liberty (beliefs cannot be foisted on people and enforced externally). so in the areas that are considered non-essentials, there is often liberty (full conformity and regularity is not forced by some external confession or council). this is one of the key tenets of baptist theology and understanding of Christianity and why it differs so much from roman catholicism, reformed, lutheran, presbyterian, orthodox, anglican, etc. confessional bodies. perhaps you see this as a weakness, but i see it as a great strength. Christianity is a free and voluntary religion/faith where each individual relates to God in a personal relationship but in a corporate environment. i think the two extremes and dangers is on the one hand, baptistic types (some not all) who emphasize the individual at the expense of the community and on the other hand, catholic and reformed types (some not all) who emphasize community at the expense of the individual. in my opinion, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
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    A room without books is a body without soul.
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    Unity and Conformity

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    Baptist denominations seem to exist for the sake of pooling money to support mission work and other activities rather than because agreement exists in the area of doctrine (with the exception of course of believer's-only baptism).
    this may apply to some baptist denominations but i wouldn't say that this is the rule.

    but i do have a comment on the issue of unity and conformity. i'm currently taking church history in seminary and it is interesting how almost from the get-go (upon the death of the apostles), the response to heretics was to centralize authority and create an external creed/confession. but is this an apostolic method to achieving unity? is centralization of authority and conformity to a creed/confession the basis for unity? interestingly enough, this same method has been duplicated in protestant churches even though they object to the validity of the catholic creeds and the authority of the pope (or the patriarchs).

    i personally think that unity is completely different than what we understand it to be today. i think that rather than being a centralization of authority (whether it be in one person or in some council) and conformity to a creed/confession resulting in some arbitrary level uniformity, that unity is something much more fundamental. the way i see it, unity is having many differences and diversities but being in agreement on the gospel.

    for example, at the first church council in Acts 15 it would have been very easy and clean for the church to centralize the authority, write up a creed/confession, force external conformity (to the centralized authority and creed/confession), and require a uniformity of practice. but they didn't do that. instead they hashed the details out together (apostles, elders at jerusalem church, and the church) and what resulted was a letter instructing the jewish christians to continue to keep their customs while the gentile christians were welcomed into the church without keeping the jewish customs (though being sensitive to them and thereby deferring to them):

    Acts 15:19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

    so they were allowed to have a difference in practice but required to defer to one another because of their unity on the gospel. shall we pretend that they had complete regularity in their practice? shall we gloss over the differences they had? what i find very interesting is that regularity in practice was not even mentioned and no creed/confession was written up and no authoritative council was established to enforce conformity to the standard and uniformity of practice. instead they were asked to defer to one another, love one another despite their differences, and unite on the gospel.

    i think diversity in the body and among the churches is inevitable and perhaps even desirable because it is in these circumstances (differences) that we are taught to love and serve one another out of a pure motive of a desire for the edification of others (it's very easy to love and serve others who are just like us and agree with us on everything). the church isn't meant to be a bunch of cookie-cutter people who all dress alike, look alike, worship alike, act alike, eat alike, understand and relate to God exactly the same, etc. and i think this seems to be the goal of churches and denominations today. this desire for an apparent feeling of unity seems to play itself out in denominations forcing external conformity to a creed/confession and a centralized authority. my contention is that this is not true unity at all but a mere worldly unity (like that seen in sacral societies).

    what do you all think of this assessment? i would appreciate any comments/feedback on this thought about unity. thanks!
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
    --Erasmus

    A room without books is a body without soul.
    --Cicero

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