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Thread: A Case For Ammillennialism

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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    Hey CB,
    The reference in my mind is to the Gentiles who will come to the same tree and be of the same lump as Jews in the Israel of God.

    The Kingdom is the mustard seed/plant and the yeast so unless us Gentiles are a part of another (separate) kingdom. We can't be included in the birds or the meal would you not agree.

    The world has no part in the kingdom whatsoever.

    Are you saying that the World is not a part of the Kingdom? If so I agree whole heartily.
    If you are saying the Kingdom can have no effect in the real physical world do you believe this will change at the Second Coming or is flesh inherently evil ?
    If we define the Kingdom as the place where Christ’s will is done, are you saying that Christ can’t or won’t rule in the real physical world we live in?

    but social justice was not the mission of the Master nor is it the Church's mission.
    Although I agree social justice is not our primary mission how do you explain?

    Luke 4:18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
    Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.
    He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted,
    To proclaim release to the captives,
    Recovering of sight to the blind,
    To deliver those who are crushed,
    4:19And to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."

    And
    Matt 5:9Blessed are the peacemakers,
    For they shall be called children of God
    .

    As to your comments on slavery, The Lord Jesus himself taught slave owners how to behave toward their slaves (or servants if you please). He never abolished slavery at all.
    I thought the only pro slavery Folks were from my neck of the woods
    Seriously, I was just trying to give a positive effect of the kingdom in the world that I thought we could agree on. I could list many others, the end of the human vs. animal duels in the Coliseum, the end for the most part of exposing unwanted infants and elderly to the elements to die, the end of religious persecution take your pick. Surely you believe some things are better now than before the time of Christ
    Those things did not happen because mankind is evolving and becoming better they happened because Christ is busy putting his enemies under his feet. For the sake of the Church

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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    Remember also that the "Thy will be done" reference was completely fulfilled when Christ, the last Adam, fulfilled all righteousness in his life, death and resurrection ("I have come to do thy will, O God")

    So God has nothing else he “wants” to do not even the resurrection ? Then why include that saying right beside “lead us not into temptation” and “give us our daily bread”
    By the way thanks for the interaction and I apologize in advance if I sometimes come across as argumentative. I believe Jesus still has stuff he want's to do with me

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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    Hey guys,
    How do you quote without having someone's whole post show up in the reply window?
    For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21


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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    It seems a bit of a stretch to me to say that birds in the tree means that ungodly society will become morally better by the influence of the church. I've read a few different interpretations and I think the best is that it is speaking of the nations being brought into the church. The herb remains an herb. It grows to be a large herb but it does not become an oak which fills the entire earth. It grows from invisible to noticable.

    Just because persecution doesn't exist where you live doesn't mean it is non-existent. It is very, very real in many places and increasing in many places. The Scriptures say it will only increase. A more civil outward appearance may be involved but persecution increases in many so-called "tolerant" countries and it will become more and more visible in the US as time goes on. The kingdom you speak of seems to have more to do with the kingdom of MLK Jr. and Jesse Jackson than the kingdom of God.

    Luke 4:18-19 is speaking primarily of spiritual deliverance. A slave who is merely released from physical bondage so that he may go out and engage in the sins of the world is more a slave than he was before. A slave who remains a physical slave but whose heart set free by the word of God is free indeed. Jesus performed actual miracles of actual physical illnesses but these were done as proof of the greater spiritual reality.

    The kingdom of God is within you.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianBaptist
    Hey guys,
    How do you quote without having someone's whole post show up in the reply window?
    Click on the icon above your text, next to the icon "insert an image" that looks as a comic book balloon. It will allow you to quote when you paste your quotation in between the "keys".

    If you want to name the person you're quoting, which I highly recommend, put a = sign following the word "quote" in the first bracket and write the screen name of the person you're quoting.

    Look at your quote above and see how it will look like.

    I hope I did not complicate even more...

    Milt
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    My pledge to other members:
    A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Prov 15:1
    A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver - Prov. 25:11

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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    WB:The kingdom of God is within you.

    Very true! It is also all around us and manifested in every aspect of human existence. Herman Hoeksema very ably noted that when one stands on the shore of an ocean and hears the roaring of the waves, he is listening to the voice of the kingdom in operation!

    Many today (not WB, I am certain) would propose that the kingdom of Chirst is purely 'spiritual' and was never purposed to be a material reign. Nothing could be further from the truth. The kingdom begins in Grace and the reign of the Holy Spirit in regenerating the hearts of mankind. But it definitely is consummated in the glorious external manifestation of God's power in the physical renovation and restoration of all things (including the bodies of elect saints)!

    I have been an Amillenialist for 24 years and will always be one. There are certain details of how the 'day of the Lord' will unfold that I believe are still open to debate. However, the gospel can never be harmonized with Dispensationalism, Hyper-Preterism, Historic Chiliasm, or Reconstructionism.

    Tomas, your view of post-mil eschatology can certainly be accepted within orthodoxy but I still have serious biblical objections.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    BT says:
    Tomas, your view of post-mil eschatology can certainly be accepted within orthodoxy but I still have serious biblical objections.

    As I think you know I have only very recently settled on my view. I would truly like to hear some more biblical objections to it.

    The kingdom begins in Grace and the reign of the Holy Spirit in regenerating the hearts of mankind. But it definitely is consummated in the glorious external manifestation of God's power in the physical renovation and restoration of all things (including the bodies of elect saints)!

    Do you feel that it will be in physical retreat or advance in the mean time?

    WB:
    Just because persecution doesn't exist where you live doesn't mean it is non-existent. It is very, very real in many places and increasing in many places.

    Why does it exist in some places and not in others? I submit the difference is the influence of the Church.

    Luke 4:18-19 is speaking primarily of spiritual deliverance. A slave who is merely released from physical bondage so that he may go out and engage in the sins of the world is more a slave than he was before. A slave who remains a physical slave but whose heart set free by the word of God is free indeed.
    I never said I disagree, however physical bondage is still a real form of bondage and as such is destined to be destroyed by Christ.

    The herb remains an herb. It grows to be a large herb but it does not become an oak which fills the entire earth.

    The seed of the kingdom is Christ surely you believe he has the power to fill the whole earth besides the yeast does leaven the whole lump of meal.

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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    Quote Originally Posted by tomas1
    WB:
    Just because persecution doesn't exist where you live doesn't mean it is non-existent. It is very, very real in many places and increasing in many places.

    Why does it exist in some places and not in others? I submit the difference is the influence of the Church.
    The church would not be persecuted if there were no church.

    Revelation 12:1-17 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. 7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time." 13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Revelation 11:3-11 3 "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire. 7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. 11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.

    Scripturally what I see is the presence of the church "tormenting" the world and causing them to hate the church.

    If you are speaking of religious persecution in general, we see the church persecuting other groups when it is able to do so.

    The world does what it does for its own benefit and out of hatred to God. The world is relativistic and pluralistic. It is perfectly happy if someone wants to place their faith in Buddah or Allah or the Pope. The world hates true Christianity because Christianity says that there is absolute truth and that absolute truth can be known. The world says "What is truth?" with Pilate. Truth to the world is whatever fills its belly.

    Following the 9/11 incident there were broadcasts on the BBC suggesting that Fundamentalist Christians were just as dangerous as Muslim fundamentalists because they believe in absolute right and wrong.
    http://www.prca.org/standard_bearer/...undUsDangerous

    Quote Originally Posted by tomas 1
    The seed of the kingdom is Christ surely you believe he has the power to fill the whole earth besides the yeast does leaven the whole lump of meal.
    God saves all mankind. Not in a head for head sense but in an organic sense in which people from every nation and a multitude which no man can number will be saved. God's people are in every nation. This does not mean they have political power in every nation. The meek shall inherit the earth and it shall be given to them at the end of time. We can chuckle or cry for those who spend this lifetime trying to accumulate lands. We've already been given the deed and all the land will be ours when Christ returns.

    The two parables are related and if we are to carry on the same explanation Jesus used in the two previous parables, the field is the world (the historical manifestation of Christ in the world). The seed and the leaven are both the Word of God. The herb tree is the church of Christ as it represents the kingdom of Christ. The thoroughly leavened dough is the perfected church or, taken individually, the perfected believer.

    The point of the parables is to show what the kingdom of God is like, not how the kingdom of God changes the practices of the world.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    Quote Originally Posted by GraceAmbassador
    I hope I did not complicate even more...
    Thanks Milt,
    That makes quoting much easier.
    Darrin
    For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21


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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    The church would not be persecuted if there were no church.

    Are you saying there are more Christians in Saudi Arabia than in Texas because Saudi Arabia has more persecution?

    If you are speaking of religious persecution in general, we see the church persecuting other groups when it is able to do so.

    Maybe it’s just the Baptist in me but when I see a group persecuting someone I take it as proof it’s not the true Bride but the Hoar.

    Scripturally what I see is the presence of the church "tormenting" the world and causing them to hate the church.

    At least we finally agree that the church has an effect on the world. The question is what does the world do in response to this "tormenting"?
    I think the bible explains it like this: God’s enemies’ hate causes them to persecute us. When Christians bravely do right in the face of this unjust persecution God’s enemies are silenced and shone to be fools. God’s wisdom is made manifest in the physical world. So especially when we are persecuted the kingdom’s goals are realized and God is glorified, we win either way!


    1st peter 2:12having good behavior among the nations, so in that which they speak against you as evil-doers, they may by your good works, which they see, glorify God in the day of visitation. 2:13Therefore subject yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether to the king, as supreme; 2:14or to governors, as sent by him for vengeance on evil-doers and for praise to those who do well. 2:15For this is the will of God, that by well-doing you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

    This is in a small way similar to what happened at the cross.

    Col 2:15having stripped the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.[the cross]

    The cool thing about this is that according to the Bible our patient endurance is counted as a gift we give God. What a privilege.

    1st peter 2:20For what glory is it if, when you sin, you patiently endure beating? But if, when you do well, you patiently endure suffering, this is commendable with God.

    I believe this is how the kingdom advances in the physical world.
    I have so far avoided quotes from Rev. but I can’t resist this one

    Rev 12:10I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now is come the salvation, the power, and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ; for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night. 12:11They overcame him because of the Lamb's blood, and because of the word of their testimony. They didn't love their life, even to death.

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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    Quote Originally Posted by tomas
    Are you saying there are more Christians in Saudi Arabia than in Texas because Saudi Arabia has more persecution?
    I'm not saying that persecution equals quantity in some type of mathematical relationship. But the presence of the church is directly linked to the persecution of the church. You can't persecute something which isn't there.

    Quote Originally Posted by tomas
    I think the bible explains it like this: Godís enemiesí hate causes them to persecute us. When Christians bravely do right in the face of this unjust persecution Godís enemies are silenced and shone to be fools. Godís wisdom is made manifest in the physical world. So especially when we are persecuted the kingdomís goals are realized and God is glorified, we win either way!


    1st peter 2:12having good behavior among the nations, so in that which they speak against you as evil-doers, they may by your good works, which they see, glorify God in the day of visitation. 2:13Therefore subject yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether to the king, as supreme; 2:14or to governors, as sent by him for vengeance on evil-doers and for praise to those who do well. 2:15For this is the will of God, that by well-doing you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
    Verse 12 says the time in which they will glorify God for our good works is "in the day of visitation." I take this to mean judgment day when all will confess that God is just. It does not say that by your good works men will abolish slavery or by your good works the world will become a more moral place.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    I'm not saying that persecution equals quantity in some type of mathematical relationship.

    I think you can make a near mathematical correlation. The amount of persecution is equal to the degree of torment Christians cause the powers that be multiplied by the amount of power they have.

    There are two reasons you don’t find as much persecution in the West as in Saudi Arabia first we don’t do enough tormenting secondly thanks to God and our forefathers his enemies don’t have enough power here.

    Verse 12 says the time in which they will glorify God for our good works is "in the day of visitation." I take this to mean judgment day when all will confess that God is just.

    Surely this means something more than just the final visitation at the Judgment. The whole section from 2:11 to 3:22 is a unit and look at 3:1and 3:16

    3:1In like manner, wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; so that, even if any don't obey the Word, they may be won by the behavior of their wives without a word
    3:16having a good conscience; that, while you are spoken against as evildoers, they may be disappointed who curse your good manner of life in Christ.
    These things must take place before the Judgment don’t you agree?

    Getting back to my argument,
    much earlier WB said:
    Man has ceased to do certain sins because he has found them to not be beneficial to himself in the long run.

    This is my main point. the Roman Empire did not give up paganism because it became godly but because the martyrs proved that to believe in the old gods was foolish. God has instilled in the physical Creation a strong tendency to punish stupidity eventually.

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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    Tomas: This is my main point. the Roman Empire did not give up paganism because it became godly but because the martyrs proved that to believe in the old gods was foolish. God has instilled in the physical Creation a strong tendency to punish stupidity eventually.

    Although my focus lately has been on other issues, I cannot ignore eschatology forever because it is the doctrine of the Last One, Jesus Christ!

    Tomas, I believe that your point is both true and false. The facts are these:

    1. The Roman Empire never gave up Paganism in its essence, only the external expression of it. The same is true of the Holy Roman Empire (? a cruel joke!) ruled by the Papacy.

    2. The way that seems right to man, which has eternal death as its destiny, views the truth about God, Christ, and salvation as the ultimate stupidity. So we should not think that the natural creation stands against stupidity in an exalted sense.

    The reality that physical martyrdom eventually ceased in many countries is due to the leaven of Christ's teaching and its restraining influence on the nations. However, the fact that one is 'restrained' from murdering or physically persecuting Christians in other ways does not signify true regeneration, as I'm sure you believe.

    The Bible contains an eschatology of severe conflict between Christ's people and the people of Satan; one that will never cease until the final Advent of Jesus. The conflict may metamorphosize into different manifestations (i.e., persecution for the truth rather than physical persecution). But it will always rage hot throughout all ages. That's the way it is.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    BT
    The Bible contains an eschatology of severe conflict between Christ's people and the people of Satan; one that will never cease until the final Advent of Jesus. The conflict may metamorphosize into different manifestations (i.e., persecution for the truth rather than physical persecution). But it will always rage hot throughout all ages. That's the way it is.

    Amen, although I still would classify myself as postmill I now have modified my view largely due to the thread on reconstructionism.
    I’m afraid that most people (even most Christians) could be happy with a society based on the old covenant. Such a society would outwardly seem moral and good and wise however it would be just as dead on the inside as the nation of Israel was.
    I now realize that those of us who love the New Covenant will always be a shining city on a hill in a dark world, always sticking out like a sore thumb, always speaking the truth to the powers, always praying “thy kingdom come”.
    Although America is much better than Rome it’s still not the Kingdom
    Peace

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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    Good comments, Tomas.

    Jack Van Impe has labeled a denial of premillenialism The Greatest Deception in History. By implication, if we deny belief in Chiliasm, we are worse than:

    1. Those who deny Jesus Christ as God the Son.

    2. Those who deny the Trinity.

    3. Those who teach justification by human character instead of Grace.

    4. Mind-numbed robots following all false religions, including the terrorists of Islam who murder multitudes without regret.

    5. All pagans, no matter how corrupt.

    One of those 'deceived' worse than Hitler,

    Billy Bob
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    hahaha, listen to this mp3 by impe!
    Attached Files Attached Files
    This is my signature.

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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    Quote Originally Posted by tomas1
    BT
    Amen, although I still would classify myself as postmill I now have modified my view largely due to the thread on reconstructionism.
    Iím afraid that most people (even most Christians) could be happy with a society based on the old covenant. Such a society would outwardly seem moral and good and wise however it would be just as dead on the inside as the nation of Israel was.
    I now realize that those of us who love the New Covenant will always be a shining city on a hill in a dark world, always sticking out like a sore thumb, always speaking the truth to the powers, always praying ďthy kingdom comeĒ.
    Although America is much better than Rome itís still not the Kingdom
    Peace
    Tomas ... HUH??? I still am not sure how one separates the Old Covenant from the New Covenant so easily.

    I don't believe that all reconstructionists believe that "christian" governments are a replacement for salvation. There are many benefits to living in a society that holds to moral absolutes. I am living in such an area. These folks here (Salt Lake City) are as lost as lost can be but I can go out in the middle of the night and walk the streets without fear of being mugged, shot or raped. Could it still happen to me ... of course but it less likely here then say New York City.

    Brandan ... that Van impeeeee clip is classic impee one verse wonderman stuff. He has no clue about what he is talking about ... so now it is 2011 when the rapture will happen. When that year comes and goes I wonder what excuse he will come up with hahaha.

    Jan
    It is what it is

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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    Folks. Even if this van Impe is some sort of religious conman I would not talk lightly about such a thing as the catching away of Christ's Body. If premillenialism is a truth of Paul and the Scripture then I say woe unto those that scoff at it. If it is the truth indeed I would not want to be in the shoes of scoffers at it. Of course the date setting thing is sheer folly, no one knows the hour.

    Harald

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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    Harald ... Are you really saying If a "Pre-tribulation rapture" is a truth of Paul ...

    It isn't so much premillenialism that is an issue with these TV fanatics as it is this pretribulation silliness. I don't think one can honestly find a pretribulation rapture in scripture without the gymnastics that many dispensationalists do to Matt 24 and the book of Daniel. 2 Thess doesn't teach a pretrib rapture only a catching away at the 2nd advent. Two separate events according to pretrib dispies.

    I think that pre, amil and postmil eschatological viewpoints all have some validity. There is a huge difference between Impe's premil position and the historical premil position.

    Thanks ... Jan
    It is what it is

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    Re: A Case For Ammillennialism

    Jan. I am no eschatology expert. But I have a belief there will be a "rapture", and it will concern "the body of Christ". I positively believe replacement theology is very serious error. God is not through with "Israel after the flesh" yet (the elect of them, that is, who are yet to be converted). I believe Paul sufficiently proves this in Romans 11. I am not talking about the present nation of Israel over there in the middle east. Who can tell how many of those "Jews" are true descendants of "the fathers", on account of whom "Israel" is beloved. God will yet save elect ethnic Israel on account of His promise to "the fathers". This is my belief based on Romans 11.


    Harald

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