Pristine Grace
Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst ... 5
Results 81 to 87 of 87

Thread: Eternal Torment

  1. #81
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,658
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    58
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    107
    Thanked in
    56 Posts

    Re: Natural Immortality

    Tomas,

    No, I haven't forgotten my commitment to respond to your points! I remember a similar commitment to respond to a post by Doug: I'm still working on that one.

    First of all, let me state that you are right in affirming the erroneous nature of the doctrine of natural immortality. If the souls of the non-elect are determined in God's purposes to endure forever, this condition should be referred to as 'eternal existence' and not 'immortality.' Immortality is a condition granted only to the elect angels and elect humans who are saved in Christ.

    1. Common grace defined as God choosing to do good things for all of his creation not just his elect. (I will leave his intentions in this to him.).
    Maybe hell it is better than nonexistence but I donít think so.


    I will agree that God determines in his purposes to do good things for the non-elect. Of course, as you know by now, I deny that this purpose should be termed 'common grace'--as grace in the NT is always salvific and only for the redeemed.

    Whatever hell is, it is most certainly worse than nonexistence, otherwise the reprobate would not call for the rocks to fall on them when beholding Christ in the judgment!

    2. God wants his wrath and justice to be forever before his elect.
    Wouldnít the sight of the torment of the three beings mentioned in Revelation 20:10 be sufficient for this.


    Maybe, but the number of reprobate souls who will suffer God's wrath is irrelevant. Whether it is three, three hundred, three thousand, three million, three billion, or three trillion is a moot point. Our problem as humans is that we don't want to see 'loved ones' as part of God's display of wrath. This is natural sentiment. However, in the judgment, the veil over our eyes is lifted and we will comprehend the true nature of eternal sin. We cannot see that in this life. It is properly called 'the mystery of iniquity' in the Bible. In fact, the sin of all devils (non-elect souls) is the same. If I have an Aunt who is non-elect, she is exactly the same in nature as the devil, Judas, Nero, or Hitler.

    3. His desire is to let us rule over something
    Surely the whole of creation plus those same three beings just mentioned is plenty to keep us busy.


    My response to argument #2 is applicable here also. It is not up to us to determine how many non-elect souls we will reign over with Christ. By the way, if there is any doubt that elect humans will personally reign over the non-elect in eternity, read the promise to the 4th assemby (Thyatira) in Revelation. Christ's rule with a rod of iron will be shared with his saints.

    4. Because they canít truly repent their sin is never fully paid for.
    Since repentance is a gift that God gives to whom he chooses.
    This is equivalent to saying that God chooses never to allow them to repent. This leads us back to square one.


    I don't agree with this. If God denies repentance to some, he also created them with hearts that are unable to repent. We do not fully understand his purposes in this (in this life) but still accept it as what is revealed truth. We have to trust that God will make all things plain regarding this in the judgment.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  2. #82
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    381
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Eternal Torment

    Thank you for the answers BillTwise that’s about what I would have come up with if I was answering myself. It’s funny how the Spirit works huh. The charliehorse between my ears concerning hell is just about straitened out.

    You said: However, in the judgment, the veil over our eyes is lifted and we will comprehend the true nature of eternal sin. We cannot see that in this life.
    I’m interested in everyone’s definition of eternal sin How does one commit it? Can any one go to hell with out committing it? Can we know by observing whether someone has committed it? I don’t think I have ever read any thing written about this subject from a Calvinist perspective.

  3. #83
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,658
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    58
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    107
    Thanked in
    56 Posts

    Re: Eternal Sin

    This is one point in which I differ from what is generally viewed as orthodox Calvinism, so you won't find my understanding there.

    In the typical Calvinistic view, the sin against the Holy Spirit is simply one great sin among many. It is not unique, but limited to a particular act of sin which the Lord has determined never to forgive: attributing the work of Christ to Satan.

    Overall, though, I'm glad to see we are coming to some mutual agreement in our understanding of this subject. And I'm certainly not claiming to have all the answers!
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  4. #84
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    381
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Eternal Torment

    Bill twisse said: This is one point in which I differ from what is generally viewed as orthodox Calvinism, so you won't find my understanding there.

    I got that impression from your other posts. But I think your opinion might help me to understand God’s purpose in keeping the reprobate around for eternity. The Bible does say that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven even in the age to come. This would explain the whole “must repent for punishment to be complete theory”. Besides you must know by now I’m not too concerned with being orthodox, just Biblical.

  5. #85
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,658
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    58
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    107
    Thanked in
    56 Posts

    Re: Eternal Sin

    Tomas:

    The passage which makes this issue most clear to my mind is Mark 3:20 through 4:34. This whole section of Mark is one treatise and intended to be read as a unitary teaching. The context goes progressively from one point to another--but the whole truth emphasized is the reality of double predestination and what it involves.

    Background (prior verses): Massive crowds follow Jesus because of his miraculous powers, Jesus begins to discriminate against some in the crowd by warning the unclean spirits not to make him known (3:12), the calling of the twelve as his preferred associates (more discrimination, though one is a betraying devil).

    Introduction: the sin against the Holy Spirit: Jesus begins to speak in parables to hide the truth from the reprobate (vs. 20-27). He reveals the nature of eternal iniquity and damnation: blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (vs. 28,29). Certain acts are evidence of the likelihood of this condition: such as calling Jesus himself unclean and devilish (vs. 30). Jesus begins to reveal double predestination: the plundering of the devil's house (election of a sinful people to salvation) and those plunged into eternal sin.

    Family Division as further evidence of Christ's double predestination: (vs. 31-33). Christ's true family are those who do his will (i.e., turn to him and receive forgiveness, as the next parable will illustrate), everyone else is outside the family.

    Jesus speaks his most important parable to the crowds (4:1-9). Understanding of the parable (hearing) is given only to the elect, the rest are excluded (Mt. 13:23--only those represented in the fruitful soil are given understanding, the rest are hardened). The three bad soils represent those who are hardened in eternal iniquity.

    Jesus explains the purpose of parables, a) to reveal the mystery of the kingdom only to the elect and b) to prevent those outside the family from understanding and believing unto salvation (vs. 10-12). God actively and deliberately hides the truth from those predestined to eternal iniquity.

    Jesus affirms the sower as the most basic of his parables and explains it to those given understanding. (vs. 13-20) It is the mystery of double predestination.

    The truth hidden in parables will be revealed in the judgment. (vs. 21-23) Implied: the reprobate will weep and gnash their teeth when they finally understand the truth, still hating the gospel nonetheless.

    Further discrimination, the 'treasures of darkness' (Isa. 45:3) will be plundered from the reprobate and given to the elect (vs. 24-25).

    Further explanation of the kingdom, (vs. 26-29) it is not consummated all-at-once but is a mystery pervading humanity and calling the elect to salvation for a long time. However, when the mystery of the growing kingdom is finished, the end will come swiftly and unexpectedly.

    The kingdom of the gospel, beginning small, will become great and mighty in the end and fill the whole earth. (vs. 30-32, Dan. 2)

    Jesus continued to speak in parables, hiding the truth from the reprobate. vs. 33-34.

    I have to go now but maybe we can soon discuss the implications of all this.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  6. #86
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    381
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Eternal Torment

    Bill twisse
    I think you might be on to something here. I went back and read all the eternal sin texts that I could think of using the parable of the Sower and double predestination as a template. Everything seemed to fit. Especially interesting is 1st John 5:16-20: right after John says that there are 2 kinds of sin in verse 16 he tells us that we who are born of God can’t sin (he must mean a sin leading to death Because a brother can commit a sin not leading to death vs 16). Then comes verse 19, which seems to be a clear reference to double predestination.

    Hebrews 6:7,8 even seems to be a reference to the Parable of the Sower.

    I do have a question though. In the parable all of the soils are exposed to the seed but in real life there are lots of people who never hear the Word at all or hear a distorted version of it. Where do they fit in this Interpretation?

  7. #87
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,658
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    58
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    107
    Thanked in
    56 Posts

    Re: Eternal Torment

    Tomas,

    First--let me state that you are 'right on' in your interpretations of the rest of the New Testament in light of Christ's teaching on the sower.

    In the parable all of the soils are exposed to the seed but in real life there are lots of people who never hear the Word at all or hear a distorted version of it. Where do they fit in this Interpretation?

    Well, the distorted version of the gospel is irrelevant to the interpretation of Christ, unless there is enough of the truth of the gospel present to make it relevant! In any case, we must admit that some do not hear the Word. For these we must admit that one of two realities are present:

    1. God converts some through the gospel apart from human proclamation. The rocks truly cry out! (or some logical equivalent, obviously). Either God works in this life apart from the normative proclamation of the gospel, or else some (infants who die before hearing, idiots, etc.) are saved in connection with their first hearing of the gospel in the next world.
    2. God does not purpose to save any who do not hear the Word.

    I will not try to solve this issue immediately. I will only confess now that one of the above two must certainly be true.

    In the gospel,
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst ... 5

Similar Threads

  1. A good article...
    By beloved57 in forum The Eschaton Archive
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-09-06, 01:59 AM
  2. The Multi-Level Canon
    By Bob Higby in forum Noteworthy Discussions
    Replies: 373
    Last Post: 12-12-05, 06:59 PM
  3. Solomon's Temple proof?
    By InChristAlways in forum General Discussion Archive
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-23-05, 07:45 PM
  4. My problem
    By Bigbil in forum Predestinarian Doctrine Archive
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 06-20-05, 02:47 PM
  5. :) Hi there, what is this forum all about?
    By Reighnskye in forum General Discussion Archive
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 05-07-05, 06:24 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •