Pristine Grace
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst ... 2 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 114

Thread: Historicism

  1. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    381
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Historicism

    Thanks Billtwisse

    I knew if I waited you would bail me out

    Do you know of any web sites that have a more mature take on Historicism
    or can you sugest a book?

  2. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Heaven
    Posts
    2,655
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Immature Historicism

    Quote Originally Posted by BillTwisse
    There is a lot of immature historicism and I do not subscribe to any wild-eyed speculation like the year-day principle, etc.

    The issue is whether the NT prophecies reaching past the apostolic era belong mainly to the 1st century, the last few years before Christ's final Advent, or the whole era in the times between. My conviction is that the primary focus is on the whole era in the times between--though certain aspects are indeed dealing with primarily the 1st century or the very last days.
    so would you say that this discussion or that historicism does not deal with other types of prophecy (i.e., other than NT prophecy)? does historicism not propose a holistic approach to all prophecy? for example, i would really like to know how a historicist would fit things like Mt 1:23 (Is 7:14) and other prophecies fulfilled in the NT (e.g., Acts 2 quoting Joel 2) into their system or even if they'd try.
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
    --Erasmus

    A room without books is a body without soul.
    --Cicero

  3. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Spring City, Tennessee
    Posts
    29
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Question Re: Historicism

    As this is my first post on a website hosted by a "Dr. Gill", I must ask why is there no gill font available to post in? I am probably the only "pre-tribulational pre-millennialist" in the group, so load up your guns. My question is this: Why didn't Christ just tell the disciples that they were wrong about their idea that He would restore the kingdom to Israel and that those promises were to fulfilled in the church? It would have made other arguments quite easier to defend.

    Acts 1:6-8
    Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

    The Holy Spirit through Paul also makes it pretty clear that although we are one in Christ and those who through Abraham are blessed with his elect biological seed, God yet has a day set aside when He will show mercy on the nation Israel again like He is now showing it to the Gentiles.



    Romans 11:11-36
    I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

    For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

    For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

    You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

    For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

    “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, (sounds like His second coming to me)
    And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
    For this is My covenant with them,
    When I take away their sins.”
    Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

    Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

    “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
    Or who has become His counselor?”
    “Or who has first given to Him
    And it shall be repaid to him?”

    For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

    I became a Calvinist because of the simple admonition to read the text carefully and prayerfully. That is why I also believe that Christ will return to rule and reign over the people of His physical lineage and keep His promise to Abraham, Daniel, David and others as the Holy Spirit also says later - we will reign with Him as well, even judging angels. This cannot mean the eternal state because it occurs after the final judgement.

    Michael Lyman www.cityonahillrbc.org

  4. #24
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,655
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    50
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    99
    Thanked in
    49 Posts

    Re: Pre-Mil Pre-Trib

    Michael states:

    God yet has a day set aside when He will show mercy on the nation Israel again like He is now showing it to the Gentiles.

    The first question has to do with that little word 'yet'. I don't believe most of us here would accept the notion that Paul was prophesying about an event 2000 years removed from his own time.

    The second question has to do with that word 'nation'. When Paul refers to Israel, where in the text does it mention the nation as opposed to the people? The context is people.

    Many thousands of Israelites came to Christ in the first century ff., as a result of the inclusion of the Gentiles. Also, according to the Hosea prophecy, the gathering of the nations outside of Judea resulted in the salvation of physical Israel (descendants of Ephraim, etc.) who had been scattered among those very nations.

    There is no way to distinguish the Israel referred to by Paul from the rest of the human race today. "For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel." Rom. 9:6. So, according to Paul's own statement, it may very well be that few of those calling themselves 'Jews' today are Israel. The 'all Israel' that will be saved--these have to be those who ARE Israel according to Rom. 9:6, which persons constitute only a portion of physical Israel. How big a portion is not stated--nor should we speculate.

    God fulfilled his Word regarding this in the first century, with the conversion of a large number of physical Jews and also the Israelites previously scattered among the nations. To me, doubting that this prophecy is already fulfilled casts question on whether Paul gave an accurate testimony.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  5. #25
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,655
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    50
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    99
    Thanked in
    49 Posts

    Answer to Doug re: Historicism

    so would you say that this discussion or that historicism does not deal with other types of prophecy (i.e., other than NT prophecy)?

    It deals with some aspects of OT prophecy. However, I do not believe that a lot of the OT prophecies go beyond the first Advent of Christ in the scope of their prediction.

    does historicism not propose a holistic approach to all prophecy? If I understand your meaning, it is answered above.

    for example, i would really like to know how a historicist would fit things like Mt 1:23 (Is 7:14) and other prophecies fulfilled in the NT (e.g., Acts 2 quoting Joel 2) into their system or even if they'd try.

    These prophecies reached their fulfillment in the NT era. The fulfillment of Joel 2 (Pentecost) occurred 50 days after the resurrection but continues to unfold throughout the entire era between the comings of Christ. This is the coming of the Holy Spirit in full measure.

    A passage such as Dan. 9:24-27 (particularly the 70th 'seven') is relevant here. A preterist might view this as the victory over Antiochos Epiphanes; a futurist might view it as yet to happen (the 'other' gap theory). But a historicist views it as completely fulfilled in the 1st century.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  6. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    381
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Historicism

    Michael states:

    God yet has a day set aside when He will show mercy on the nation Israel again like He is now showing it to the Gentiles.

    I agree with you on this if you mean ethnic and not national Israel that’s is why I lean toward Postmillennialism but that puts me out even further on a limb than Historicism.

  7. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    381
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Historicism

    I’ve got another example to illustrate why the method we use is important Zechariah chapter 12 and especially from verse 10 on. Again look at it one method at a time.
    Preterism: This was fulfilled during the time of the Maccabees

    Idealism: This is spiritually fulfilled every time a sinner comes to Christ

    Futurism: This will be fulfilled at the second coming (or after the rapture)

    Historicism: This was fulfilled at Pentecost (BillTwisse believes this I think) or
    This will be fulfilled some time in the future before the Final Judgment

    Because I don’t feel that that this has been fulfilled yet and I don’t think Christ will physically set on a throne in Jerusalem I am left with Postmillennialism.

  8. #28
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,655
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    50
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    99
    Thanked in
    49 Posts

    Re: Post Millenialism

    I don't get it, Tomas. Why do you believe that Post-millenialism is the position consistent with the historicist view of prophecy? What version of post-mil do you accept (historic or reconstructionist)?
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  9. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    381
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Historicism

    Billtwisse:
    I don't get it, Tomas. Why do you believe that Post-millenialism is the position consistent with the historicist view of prophecy? What version of post-mil do you accept (historic or reconstructionist)?

    I only lean toward Post-millenialism and definitely not reconstructionist. I don’t have a firm opinion. It’s just that I see some prophecies like the ingathering of the Jews to the Church and the beating of swords into plowshares as not being fulfilled completely as of today.

  10. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    381
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Historicism

    He sheweth that the time shall come that the whole nation of the Jews, though not every one particularly, shall be joined to the Church of Christ The Geneva Bible notes on Romans 11:15,25


    This ancient people (the Jews) will come to be one fold with the Fullness of the Gentiles… In answer to millions of prayers
    John Owen


    They forget a main point for the Church’s glory who pray not daily for the conversion of the Jews. Undoubtedly that people of the Jews shall once more be commanded to arise and shine, and their return shall be the riches of the Gentiles, and that shall be a more glorious time than ever the Church of God did yet behold!
    Robert Leighton

    These men all subscribed to Historicism and some form of Postmillennialism

  11. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Spring City, Tennessee
    Posts
    29
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Lightbulb Re: Pre-Mil Pre-Trib

    Quote Originally Posted by BillTwisse
    Michael states:

    God yet has a day set aside when He will show mercy on the nation Israel again like He is now showing it to the Gentiles.

    The first question has to do with that little word 'yet'. I don't believe most of us here would accept the notion that Paul was prophesying about an event 2000 years removed from his own time.

    What is your biblical reason for saying that? The same could be said by a jew when an O.T. prophecy about Christ was given.

    The second question has to do with that word 'nation'. When Paul refers to Israel, where in the text does it mention the nation as opposed to the people? The context is people.

    The context is people and they are ethnic jews, who believed like the disciples in Acts 1 (which, BTW, I would like to see your response to) that Christ would return to set up an earthly kingdom.

    Many thousands of Israelites came to Christ in the first century ff., (I agree!)as a result of the inclusion of the Gentiles. Also, according to the Hosea prophecy, the gathering of the nations outside of Judea resulted in the salvation of physical Israel (descendants of Ephraim, etc.) who had been scattered among those very nations.

    There is no way to distinguish the Israel referred to by Paul from the rest of the human race today. (Not by us) "For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel." Rom. 9:6. So, according to Paul's own statement, it may very well be that few of those calling themselves 'Jews' today are Israel. The 'all Israel' that will be saved--these have to be those who ARE Israel according to Rom. 9:6, which persons constitute only a portion of physical Israel. How big a portion is not stated--nor should we speculate.

    I have not speculated. The text says "All Israel" which I take to mean the final gathering in of elect physical descendants of Abraham. Obviously it is a significant enough number that it will be clear that this prophecy is being fulfilled. We may not know who they are, but God certainly does.

    that blindness in part has happened to Israel (the time when Paul wrote) until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (Obviously a future point in time because Paul says "until") And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

    “The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
    And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
    For this is My covenant with them,
    When I take away their sins.”

    The text makes it clear that this happens upon Christ's Second Coming, which is still to come. The word "will" is used to show this event is yet to come when Paul writes this. Christ will return physically and fulfill all the hopes of the fathers, kings & prophets that we find made in the promises of God to them in the O.T.

    Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. (Again Paul is obviously refering to a future time)For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.


    God fulfilled his Word regarding this in the first century, with the conversion of a large number of physical Jews and also the Israelites previously scattered among the nations. To me, doubting that this prophecy is already fulfilled casts question on whether Paul gave an accurate testimony.
    Where does the N.T. state this has already been fulfilled?
    "God Himself, in His divine person, is the sole moving cause of every good motion and good work in us. He is the only stimulator, inspirer, animator, instigator, influencer, and director of real worship."



    William Huntington S.S.


  12. #32
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Middleville, MI
    Posts
    3,577
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Historicism

    As this is my first post on a website hosted by a "Dr. Gill", I must ask why is there no gill font available to post in? I am probably the only "pre-tribulational pre-millennialist" in the group, so load up your guns. My question is this: Why didn't Christ just tell the disciples that they were wrong about their idea that He would restore the kingdom to Israel and that those promises were to fulfilled in the church? It would have made other arguments quite easier to defend.

    Acts 1:6-8

    Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
    He already told them several times that they were wrong prior to His crucifixion. It was unnecessary to tell them they were wrong now because He was going to show them in a very dramatic way why they were wrong on Pentecost.

    Much seems to hinge on the Romans 11 passage, although this passage should be irrelevant in the current discussion. Many amillenialists such as Riddlebarger see a future restoration of ethnic Israel.

    However, I believe it involves a misreading of the text. The text does not say "and then all Israel will be saved." The Greek is very clear it says and so/thus/in this manner all Israel will be saved. In what manner will Israel be saved? In the manner just described.

    Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    This verse is often interpreted to teach that after all the Gentiles come in then the blindness will be removed. However, the verse does not say the blindness will be removed and the construction is often used in Greek in situations where something occurs past the time given or even into eternity.

    The section following this is a quote, or rather a compilation of quotes from the OT. Paul uses readings from the LXX and pastes together passages such as Isa. 59:20; 27:9; 59:21 with reminders of Micah 5:2 and probably Jer. 31:31 ff. Since it is a quote he leaves the quotations in the same tense in which he found them. However, this also draws attention to the fact that this continually happening as the elect of ethnic Israel are brought into the kingdom.

    As Hendriksen rightly translates 26b, 27:

    .....as it is written:
    "Out of Zion will come the Deliverer;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
    And this is my covenant with them
    whenever I shall take away their sins."
    Each Israelite experiences the forgiveness of sins at the moment of faith and so it says "And this is my covenant with them whenever I shall take away their sins. Jesus already came out of Zion in regards to His human nature.

    The idea of a mass conversion of all of ethnic Israel at the second coming of Christ makes little sense in the light of the rest of Scripture. There is no chance of conversion at the time of the second coming and Paul makes clear early that not all Israel are Israel.

    Sola Gratia,
    WildBoar
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

  13. #33
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,655
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    50
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    99
    Thanked in
    49 Posts

    Re: All Israel Shall Be Saved

    I agree with WB on this one:

    He already told them several times that they were wrong prior to His crucifixion. It was unnecessary to tell them they were wrong now because He was going to show them in a very dramatic way why they were wrong on Pentecost.

    This is also MY response to Michael on the Acts 1 challenge. Pentecost (the fullness of the gospel) is the hope of Israel. Talmudic Judaism (the religion of the present day nation of Israel) is the curse that God sent upon unrepentant Jews. It is not the elect remnant of Israel in ANY sense, instead, it is the non-remnant predestined to hell. The Lord will never redeem Talmudic Judaism into 'gospel Judaism'--for that would be gospel prostitution. Those who subscribe to the Talmud and never repent and believe the true gospel will perish in their sins. Period. They currently have NO advantage over Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Scientists, Moonies, Hindus, Buddhists, New Ager's, and all other non-Christian cults. None whatsoever. God will certainly redeem SOME souls out of all of these soul-damning entities, however, he has absolutely no preference to redeem more Talmudic Jews than Muslims or Mormons. If we believe that he does, I propose that we are prostituting the gospel as an ordinance of genetic preference.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  14. #34
    Administrator Brandan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5,823
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    121
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    70
    Thanked in
    45 Posts

    Re: All Israel Shall Be Saved

    Quote Originally Posted by BillTwisse
    This is also MY response to Michael on the Acts 1 challenge. Pentecost (the fullness of the gospel) is the hope of Israel. Talmudic Judaism (the religion of the present day nation of Israel) is the curse that God sent upon unrepentant Jews. It is not the elect remnant of Israel in ANY sense, instead, it is the non-remnant predestined to hell. The Lord will never redeem Talmudic Judaism into 'gospel Judaism'--for that would be gospel prostitution. Those who subscribe to the Talmud and never repent and believe the true gospel will perish in their sins. Period. They currently have NO advantage over Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Scientists, Moonies, Hindus, Buddhists, New Ager's, and all other non-Christian cults. None whatsoever. God will certainly redeem SOME souls out of all of these soul-damning entities, however, he has absolutely no preference to redeem more Talmudic Jews than Muslims or Mormons. If we believe that he does, I propose that we are prostituting the gospel as an ordinance of genetic preference.
    Amen Bob. Modern day Jews probably don't even have a genetic link to the old Hebrew Jews. The vast majority of them are Europeans that converted to Talmudic Judaism when the remaining Jews who weren't slaughtered were scattered across Europe after Rome destroyed Jerusalem.
    This is my signature.

  15. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Heaven
    Posts
    2,655
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Historicism

    Quote Originally Posted by r4mdh2o
    Why didn't Christ just tell the disciples that they were wrong about their idea that He would restore the kingdom to Israel and that those promises were to fulfilled in the church? It would have made other arguments quite easier to defend.



    Acts 1:6-8
    Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

    The Holy Spirit through Paul also makes it pretty clear that although we are one in Christ and those who through Abraham are blessed with his elect biological seed, God yet has a day set aside when He will show mercy on the nation Israel again like He is now showing it to the Gentiles.
    so would you propose that the resurrected Christ ignored their question or did He indeed answer it? did He just poo-poo them and tell them to stop asking such silly questions that they'll never receive answers to (since it's really none of their business) or did He actually answer their question? was He responding in apparent sternness because they merely asked such a question or was it more likely that He was responding to their misunderstanding as to how this would actually come to pass and what the nature of the kingdom would be? it is my contention that He did indeed answer their question though not in a way that they ever expected. it was much like things He said during His ministry which, if they listened and understood, we would not see the question in Acts 1:

    Mk 11:9 Those who went in front and those who followed were shouting: "Hosanna! Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord; 10 Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David; Hosanna in the highest!" 11 Jesus entered Jerusalem and came into the temple; and after looking around at everything, He left for Bethany with the twelve, since it was already late. 12 On the next day, when they had left Bethany, He became hungry. 13 Seeing at a distance a fig tree in leaf, He went to see if perhaps He would find anything on it; and when He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. 14 He said to it, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again!" And His disciples were listening. 15 Then they came to Jerusalem. And He entered the temple and began to drive out those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the moneychangers and the seats of those who were selling doves; 16 and He would not permit anyone to carry merchandise through the temple. 17 And He began to teach and say to them, "Is it not written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations'? But you have made it a robbers' den." 18 The chief priests and the scribes heard this and began seeking how to destroy Him; for they were afraid of Him, for the whole crowd was astonished at His teaching. 19 When evening came, they would go out of the city. 20 As they were passing by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots up. 21 Being reminded, Peter said to Him, "Rabbi, look, the fig tree which You cursed has withered." 22 And Jesus answered saying to them, "Have faith in God. [withered fig tree here represented the old Jerusalem; Christ here makes it bear fruit by faith; cf. Mt 21:43 et al]

    Mk 12:1 And He began to speak to them in parables: "A man planted a vineyard and put a wall around it, and dug a vat under the wine press and built a tower, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey. 2 "At the harvest time he sent a slave to the vine-growers, in order to receive some of the produce of the vineyard from the vine-growers. 3 "They took him, and beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 "Again he sent them another slave, and they wounded him in the head, and treated him shamefully. 5 "And he sent another, and that one they killed; and so with many others, beating some and killing others. 6 "He had one more to send, a beloved son; he sent him last of all to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 7 "But those vine-growers said to one another, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours!' 8 "They took him, and killed him and threw him out of the vineyard. 9 "What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others. 10 "Have you not even read this Scripture: 'The stone which the builders rejected, This became the chief corner stone 11 This came about from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes'?" 12 And they were seeking to seize Him, and yet they feared the people, for they understood that He spoke the parable against them. And so they left Him and went away. 13 Then they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Him in order to trap Him in a statement. 14 They came and said to Him, "Teacher, we know that You are truthful and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any, but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to pay a poll-tax to Caesar, or not? 15 "Shall we pay or shall we not pay?" But He, knowing their hypocrisy, said to them, "Why are you testing Me? Bring Me a denarius to look at." 16 They brought one. And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" And they said to Him, "Caesar's." 17 And Jesus said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they were amazed at Him.

    Lk 5:36 And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old. 37 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined. 38 "But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins. 39 "And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough '"

    Lk 19:37 As soon as He was approaching, near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of the disciples began to praise God joyfully with a loud voice for all the miracles which they had seen, 38 shouting: "Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord; Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!" 39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Him, "Teacher, rebuke Your disciples." 40 But Jesus answered, "I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out!"

    John 6:15 So Jesus, perceiving that they were intending to come and take Him by force to make Him king, withdrew again to the mountain by Himself alone.

    John 18:33 Therefore Pilate entered again into the Praetorium, and summoned Jesus and said to Him, "Are You the King of the Jews?" 34 Jesus answered, "Are you saying this on your own initiative, or did others tell you about Me?" 35 Pilate answered, "I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests delivered You to me; what have You done?" 36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." 37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."


    all of these sayings of Jesus testify that this kingdom would be wholly different from any kingdom that they knew and understood (recall as well that they were written after Acts 1-2; at the time of their utterences, it is evident that even the disciples didn't get it). He was a King, but not a King of the sort that the faithful first century jew understood or even wanted anything to do with. He has a kingdom, but not a kingdom of the sort that the faithful first century jew understood or even wanted anything to do with. the disciples didn't even get it until after what Jesus said in Acts 1 was confirmed in Acts 2. and they saw this truth in a very vivid way. all of their ideas that they understood to refer to a carnal kingdom with literal thrones and crowns would be turned upside down. and the reason we know this is based on the OT texts they chose to quote. in the first sermon at the birthday of the new covenant church to prove that the promised Holy Spirit was indeed a continuation of what God was doing and a fulfillment of what we read in the Old Testament, Peter quotes Joel 2. this passage was understood to refer to the Messianic age and the renewed covenant and kingdom (spoken of elsewhere in Isaiah, Amos, Jeremiah, Zechariah, Ezekiel, etc.). furthermore, James in response to Peter's comments in Acts 15 responds to the controversy in Jerusalem concerning the Judaizers and gentile salvation by quoting Amos 9:

    Acts 15:13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me. 14 "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 'After these things I will return, And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen, And I will rebuild its ruins, And I will restore it, 17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,' 18 Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.

    in other words, it was now finally understood by the disciples that the promised new covenant (which included a King, a kingdom, and subjects but was spiritual rather than physical like they first expected) was actually here in full. they needed not to expect some other manifestation of the kingdom. we find another quotation of this promised new covenant being fulfilled in such places as 1 Peter 2 and the entire book of Hebrews.

    below is an article that is a response by the folks at http://www.ids.org to John Macarthur:

    http://www.newcovenant.ws/steve/John_Mac.html
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
    --Erasmus

    A room without books is a body without soul.
    --Cicero

  16. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Heaven
    Posts
    2,655
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Historicism

    Quote Originally Posted by r4mdh2o
    My question is this: Why didn't Christ just tell the disciples that they were wrong about their idea that He would restore the kingdom to Israel and that those promises were to fulfilled in the church? It would have made other arguments quite easier to defend.



    Acts 1:6-8
    Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

    The Holy Spirit through Paul also makes it pretty clear that although we are one in Christ and those who through Abraham are blessed with his elect biological seed, God yet has a day set aside when He will show mercy on the nation Israel again like He is now showing it to the Gentiles.

    so to conclude by looking again at the actual passage in question:

    Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, is this the time when you will restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He replied, "It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

    so what did Jesus' response in v. 8 mean? was it related at all to their question? was He actually answering their question though instead of dealing with the timing of it (which they wanted to be privied to though they guessed the timing right as it was upon them) He was dealing with the nature of it? it is interesting to note that what they were really asking was "is this the time when you are going to return the kingdom of Israel to its former state?" or "is this the time when you are going to reinstate the kingdom to Israel?" the word for restore there means to return or restore to its former place or status. you can see more on that word here: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin....reflang=greek

    so this helps us to understand his consternation at their apparent dullness of mind and His stern response (v. 7). the apparent ignorance of the disciples is one thing that the gospels and acts do not hide. we find that they were slow to recognize the true nature of the new covenant since they were so accustomed to thinking of things in a sacral way (with faith/religion and state/politics intimately intertwined). that this new body would be in the world but not of the world was revolutionary. Jesus was not only renewing his covenant but He was introducing a whole new way of thinking of things. the kingdom and King would no longer be carnal...the promise was something much more transcendent. while the OC types were carnal and physical shadows, the NC antitypes would be spiritual realities that would transcend time and space. this was more than they ever imagined.

    therefore Jesus as King not only inaugurated a new kingdom but in the process inaugurated a whole new society with a whole new way of thinking. the church (the kingdom of God) would be a spiritual soceity among a physical society. it would impact the world and each culture one by one. it would not seek to take over the carnal culture, thereby replacing their gods and their worship with the Christian God and way of worship, but rather would be content to gather in their own places and ignore the gods and worship of the unbeliever (to paraphrase verduin from his book, "the reformers and their stepchildren"). this was the kingdom that Jesus says that He came to be King of (cf. John 18:37). it would not be coextensive with carnal soceity but would be scattered among soceity. putting the new covenant into a physical kingdom would be like putting new wine and an old wineskin. the old kingdom was not to be forced onto the new covenant for it will not fit...it was not meant to be this way.

    in addition, the adversative in v. 8 suggests that He was indeed answering their question, but in a way much different than their question was really meant to ask. and His answer was that the kingdom would be reached through spiritual means by spreading the good news to the world, starting right there in jerusalem and seeing the conversion of individuals through their witness. the parable of the mustard seed would indeed see its fulfillment in the church (cf. Mt 13:31ff; Lk 13:19ff). we find this fulfillment realized throughout the book of acts and the life of the church to today. this was the kingdom that Jesus actually came to be King of...not the carnal kingdom that was expected by the disciples and still expected by myriads of dispensationalists and others. i firmly believe that this hope is a false hope that will be dashed to the rocks when it is realized that our hope is right in front of our faces...our hope and kingdom is Jesus Christ and His church, not a carnal kingdom with literal sacrifices, thrones, crowns, swords, etc.
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
    --Erasmus

    A room without books is a body without soul.
    --Cicero

  17. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Warrington, UK
    Posts
    488
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Historicism

    Disciple, your points were well made.

    Two things held me back from accepting this view: firstly the fact that a future for ethnic Israel is so widely believed such that it seems to be taken for granted in many quarters and I realise I had adopted that position by default and secondly, world events with the re-establishment of Israel as a nation in the last century did seem to add some credibility to this view but I now see that both of these views overlook the major shift from old covenant to new, old kingdom to new, type/antitype, etc - why go back to the old?

    One remaining question I have: where do you see the prophecy of Isaiah 49:22-23 being fullfilled?

    Martin

  18. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    381
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Historicism

    I completely agree with what Disciple is saying from the first word to the last. This is the danger of premillennialism, forgetting the nature of the kingdom.
    So why then do I think that God will chose to save the great majority of Jews? It is not because of Gods special love for them for he is no respecter of persons. It’s not because of the value of their theology I also believe that Talmudic Judaism is an abomination. It is because of his love for the church.
    If my understanding is correct (and if history is any guide it might not be). I think the same church that started, as a tiny group huddled together in the upper room, through the preaching of the true Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit will be privileged to see the once mighty Judaism that rejected their king and persecuted them completely disappear and it’s adherents morn bitterly for him they pierced.
    Not only that but I think we will before our Lord’s return see the overthrow of the Harlot Roman Church and her daughters the hierarchical semi Christian sects. (Revelation: 17-18).
    We will get to celebrate the downfall of not only the Papacy but also the end of the demon inspired Muslim religion (Revelation: 19-20). All this will happen because our King really is all-powerful and he will continue to rule and put all of his enemies under his feet. The world will know that the Spirit truly is mightier than the sword of sinful man. And the gates of hell will not prevail against his Bride.
    Only the hidden apostasy of freewillism(2nd Thessalonians:2) will remain to be destroyed by the appearance of his coming. Because it can hide so well among the true Church Like tares among wheat. But at the proper time even it will be destroyed by just the breath from his mouth.

  19. #39
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Heaven
    Posts
    2,655
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: Historicism

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeuos Eleos
    One remaining question I have: where do you see the prophecy of Isaiah 49:22-23 being fullfilled?
    i must confess that prophecy and eschatology is not my strong suit especially when it comes to trying to figure out what and how each and every specific OT prophecy was/is fulfilled. i could try and guess but if Christ or the NT writers have not supplied the answer, it would be just that. i am much more comfortable dealing with explicit NT texts where they quote an OT prophecy and say or imply that it was fulfilled in such and such a way. i could make a stab but then i'd be no better than the soothsayers on Trinity Broadcasting Network or the self-appointed prophets who are here to make a quick buck by writing novels, peddling the word of God (but i would not ask for any renumeration...i'd just do it for free )

    nevertheless, i'm not sure what your specific problem is with seeing Is 45:22-23 fulfilled in Christ's spiritual kingdom (whether it be already fulfilled or fulfilled by His coming to judge the nations...which i believe is still future). perhaps you could be more specific. thanks!
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
    --Erasmus

    A room without books is a body without soul.
    --Cicero

  20. #40
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,655
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    50
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    99
    Thanked in
    49 Posts

    Isa. 45:22-23

    If there is ANY section of OT prophetic scripture focused on the WHOLE of mankind and not JUST Israel, it is Isa. 40-66. This passage in Isa. 45 addresses the 'ends of the earth' and entreats all who have any desire for salvation to turn to the Lord God. The salvation of the nations is the context; evidenced in vs. 20-21.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst ... 2 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •