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Thread: A Presbyterian Case for the Baptist Rejection of Infant Baptism

  1. #101
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    Re: The Song of Salvation

    Dear Martin,

    The great tragedy is that you cannot experience the true ekklesia and koinonia of the true gospel and begin to sing that song NOW! There is no question that the early believers did! However, we have no indication that the NT assembly will EVER exist again. It certainly does not yet. All of those who have claimed to reform NT ecclesiology thus far have been abundantly proven to be liars. I won't mention any names, but those who understand this issue KNOW what I am talking about!

    At least John MacArthur is honest in what he promotes in this regard. His 'model' (which is truly pathetic) is the only one that has truly changed anything. The rest of those claiming to reform ecclesiology are not genuine at all. MacArthur has the courage to renounce the lies of historic churchmen and admit:

    1. In any historic churchian assembly, one man decides the doctrine.

    2. In those assemblies, if any elders exist, their 'succession' only exists after the pattern of that one man. If anything significant is to change, the 'elders in subjection' must persuade that one founding man that their position is true.

    3. The 'elders of churchianity' are not chosen in any way by the congregation--but only by the already existing elder or elders. Any congregational 'vote' is purely academc.

    I believe that MacArthur is teaching false doctrine in this regard, however, at least he is doing it with carnal 'honesty.' Other expositors (who claim to believe in plural eldership and the priesthood of all believers) will not even exercise CARNAL honesty in what they promote!

    So there you have it.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  2. #102
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    Re: The Song of Salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by BillTwisse
    At least John MacArthur is honest in what he promotes in this regard. His 'model' (which is truly pathetic) is the only one that has truly changed anything. The rest of those claiming to reform ecclesiology are not genuine at all. MacArthur has the courage to renounce the lies of historic churchmen and admit:

    1. In any historic churchian assembly, one man decides the doctrine.

    2. In those assemblies, if any elders exist, their 'succession' only exists after the pattern of that one man. If anything significant is to change, the 'elders in subjection' must persuade that one founding man that their position is true.

    3. The 'elders of churchianity' are not chosen in any way by the congregation--but only by the already existing elder or elders. Any congregational 'vote' is purely academc.

    I believe that MacArthur is teaching false doctrine in this regard, however, at least he is doing it with carnal 'honesty.' Other expositors (who claim to believe in plural eldership and the priesthood of all believers) will not even exercise CARNAL honesty in what they promote!

    So there you have it.
    perhaps i'm missing something, but does macarthur practice the above or does he renounce it? what does his church practice? what has he done in regards to eccelsiology that has made changes? please elaborate...
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
    --Erasmus

    A room without books is a body without soul.
    --Cicero

  3. #103
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    Re: Eldership

    Doug:
    perhaps i'm missing something, but does macarthur practice the above or does he renounce it? what does his church practice? what has he done in regards to eccelsiology that has made changes? please elaborate...

    Perhaps I should have made myself clearer; my comment about 'honesty' in 'church government' is directed at Nonconformity and not the state-church denominations. There is no doubt about Episcopal, Lutheran, Reformed, and Presbyterian views. What I am saying is that Congregational, Baptist, and Brethren churches--though professing to be more biblical, in reality follow the same pattern.

    Episcopacy has the Bishop, Reformed/Presbyterian churches have the office of 'teaching elder' as distinct from 'ruling elder', etc. Often Congregationalists or Baptists have a 'senior pastor' or simply one 'pastor.' Brethren claim to always have multiple leaders, however, in practicality there is always the 'founder' or 'chief sage' who is respected above the others and looked to as the final authority.

    In GCC and other churches like that of MacArthur, there is no hypocrisy in attempting to claim that elders are chosen by the congregation or that electing them is based strictly on God's prior annointing. The elders are chosen by existing elders. To me this is unbiblical but it really is immaterial--the NT assembly does not exist today (so elders are a moot point), only the ekklesia (the leaders of which are annointed not by man but by God alone).

    I have yet to see a church organized after the brethren model (multiple/equal eldership supposedly elected by the congregation) which did not in reality function just like an episcopacy. One man decides the doctrine and others receive favor based on agreement!
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  4. #104
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    Re: Eldership

    Quote Originally Posted by BillTwisse
    Doug:
    perhaps i'm missing something, but does macarthur practice the above or does he renounce it? what does his church practice? what has he done in regards to eccelsiology that has made changes? please elaborate...

    Perhaps I should have made myself clearer; my comment about 'honesty' in 'church government' is directed at Nonconformity and not the state-church denominations. There is no doubt about Episcopal, Lutheran, Reformed, and Presbyterian views. What I am saying is that Congregational, Baptist, and Brethren churches--though professing to be more biblical, in reality follow the same pattern.

    Episcopacy has the Bishop, Reformed/Presbyterian churches have the office of 'teaching elder' as distinct from 'ruling elder', etc. Often Congregationalists or Baptists have a 'senior pastor' or simply one 'pastor.' Brethren claim to always have multiple leaders, however, in practicality there is always the 'founder' or 'chief sage' who is respected above the others and looked to as the final authority.

    In GCC and other churches like that of MacArthur, there is no hypocrisy in attempting to claim that elders are chosen by the congregation or that electing them is based strictly on God's prior annointing. The elders are chosen by existing elders. To me this is unbiblical but it really is immaterial--the NT assembly does not exist today (so elders are a moot point), only the ekklesia (the leaders of which are annointed not by man but by God alone).

    I have yet to see a church organized after the brethren model (multiple/equal eldership supposedly elected by the congregation) which did not in reality function just like an episcopacy. One man decides the doctrine and others receive favor based on agreement!
    thanks bob. i appreciate the clarification. your comments make much more sense now!

    i agree that it is a very sad situation that even churches that have elders, still practice a heirarchy with a "buck-stops-here", "go-to" guy. and i have seen and deplore this monarchical bishop model. in fact, the church i currently go to has this setup and is supposedly attempting to try to get out of it. but there are those who think that the church is a business and that the sheep are dumb and that this model logistically requires a head.

    what are some suggestions to how to combat this and obey God within this model? what are some good tips in how to personally handle this and encourage the Scriptural model of a council of equal elders? i'm currently a deacon in the church and am wanting to receive wisdom on how best to approach/handle this issue. perhaps we can get some discussion started on this? shall i start another thread?
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
    --Erasmus

    A room without books is a body without soul.
    --Cicero

  5. #105
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    Re: Eldership

    Quote Originally Posted by disciple
    what are some suggestions to how to combat this and obey God within this model? what are some good tips in how to personally handle this and encourage the Scriptural model of a council of equal elders? i'm currently a deacon in the church and am wanting to receive wisdom on how best to approach/handle this issue. perhaps we can get some discussion started on this? shall i start another thread?
    Guys,
    This is EXACTLY the sort of thing I had in mind with the "Offices" post in the Ecclesiology forum! I haven't had chance to post my questions or views yet but let's discuss this there!

    Martin

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    Re: Eldership

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeuos Eleos
    Guys,
    This is EXACTLY the sort of thing I had in mind with the "Offices" post in the Ecclesiology forum! I haven't had chance to post my questions or views yet but let's discuss this there!

    Martin
    sounds great to me! bob are you up to giving us your insight on the matter over at the other thread?
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
    --Erasmus

    A room without books is a body without soul.
    --Cicero

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