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Thread: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

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    Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE
    Paul Proctor
    October 3, 2002
    NewsWithViews.com

    The latest in a growing list of Baptist Press articles spotlighting Rick Warren is one by Erin Curry promoting the pastor's latest book entitled, ‘The Purpose Driven Life’ - obviously a sequel to ‘The Purpose Driven Church’. My intention here is not to review Warren’s new release but rather address a poignant statement Curry attributes to Saddleback’s founder regarding the goal of the book.


    In his September 25th article, Curry wrote the following:

    "Warren says the goal of The Purpose Driven Life is to help people develop a heart for the world."

    What makes focusing on this particular comment so important is that it reveals the humanist philosophy and psychological manipulation that fuels today’s church growth movement. (CGM) First of all, the bible does not teach that we are to develop anything spiritual in and of ourselves -- especially "a heart for the world". Instead, we are to simply yield to God and His Word -- that is, "let go and let God", as the saying goes. For me to develop something implies that I am in control and affecting my own change. It denotes a psychological transformation that occurs through personal experience, trial and error, human interaction and the praxis (or practice) of Hegel’s dialectic, otherwise known as the Hegelian Dialectic or "Diaprax". Spiritual attributes are not developed like muscles on men but are given like gifts from God. You either have them or you don’t. They are not designed and "developed" over time through human initiative and experimentation. And although the term "developing a heart" is merely creeker-speak for "learning to love", notice if you will, that Warren doesn’t encourage us to develop "a heart for the lost", but rather "a heart for the world". Those who believe the Word of God know that loving the world is exactly what Christians are commanded NOT to do. "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world" -- 1st John 2:15-17



    When we focus our affection on a dying world instead of the Living Word, we ourselves become susceptible to its power and influence and over the course of time are seduced by it into compromising our own convictions until we tolerate, then accommodate, then approve, then imitate, then embrace and finally love the very world we were saved FROM. By deception, attrition, peer-pressure and self-gratification we fall prey to sheepish-looking wolves roaming the herd, twisting the truth of scripture into ear-itching lies that transform gullible "seekers" into global serfs instead of godly servants. These charlatans can’t just come right out and tell us to "love the world" because far too many would then recognize their heresy. So, they cloak the lie in fluffy CGM psycho-lingo to avoid setting off any discernment alarms and instruct us instead to "develop a heart for the world".

    That’s why at seeker-sensitive, promise-keeping, purpose-driven, churches you’ll always find plenty of Jungian psychology, charismatic clichés, sensual music, tempting dress, irreverent behavior, boisterous applause, celebrity worship, biblical ignorance and smiley-faced pride because everyone there is busy living out the purpose driven lie "developing a heart for the world".

    "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." -- James 4:4
    © 2002 Paul Proctor - All Rights Reserved


    Paul Proctor, a rural resident of the Volunteer state and seasoned veteran of the country music industry, retired from showbiz in the late 1990's to dedicate himself to addressing important social issues from a distinctly biblical perspective. As a freelance writer and regular columnist for News With Views, he extols the wisdom and truths of scripture through commentary and insight on cultural trends and current events. His articles appear regularly on a variety of news and opinion sites across the internet and in print. Paul may be reached at watchman@usa.com.

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    Re: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    I agree with this account.

    Furthermore, while reading this book I was horrified at the false gospel it presents in Chapter 7. "Just believe and receive" without going into repentance, sin or our standing before a holy God. How long are we going to not only tolerate but exalt this heresy??? Where do we draw the line?

    I am greatly disturbed by how many of my fellow brothers in Christ can read this book and not catch the error within.

    This book is just another product of easy believism which is a cancer within our churches that is spreading rapidly!!! But that is a rant for another time.

    I would like to hear the thoughts of this community on this book.

    Yoder

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    Re: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    Quote Originally Posted by Amish Dave
    I am greatly disturbed by how many of my fellow brothers in Christ can read this book and not catch the error within.
    I have not read the book but if it is as represented here then IMO I would doubt whether someone who does not 'catch the error within' could actually be called a 'brother in Christ'.

    Martin

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    Re: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    I'm sorry, but I disagree - the Gospel is BELIEVE. Repentance is presupposed in belief. Meaning, if one believes the gospel he of course is repenting. He's repenting of UNBELIEF toward BELIEF in Christ. Repentance and Belief are two sides of the same coin.

    Mk 1:15., (NKJV), and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

    Mk 9:23, (NKJV), Jesus said to him, "If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes."

    Lk 8:12, (NKJV), "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.”

    Jn 1:12-13, (NKJV), But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name: (13) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Jn 10:26, (NKJV), "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

    Jn 12:39-40, (NKJV), Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: (40) "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes and understand with their heart, lest they should turn, so that I should heal them."

    Acts 13:39, (NKJV), "and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.”

    Acts 16:31, (NKJV), So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

    Rom 10:9-11, (NKJV), that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (10) For with the heart one believes to righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made to salvation. (11) For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
    This is my signature.

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    Re: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    Hey guys,

    New here so I figure I will go ahead and jump in.

    I think one of the points that we easily miss is recognizing the fountain head of faith, repentance, belief etc. The question is, is belief, faith and repentance something we concoct in ourselves or is it a gift from God given to those who he has sovereignly chose or predestined. I believe they are and here are some scriptures I think that may help.

    Faith is a gift-

    Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    Belief is a gift-

    John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    Repentance is a gift-

    Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    Basically my point is that salvation and all it's particulars are gifts given from God to his elect. And none of his sheep will resist him. Arminians have had it wrong all along by assuming somehow we just "choose" to believe, repent and so on.

    We also have to understand that there are two different beliefs in the bible. There is a saving belief, which I showed earlier (J.6:29). But the bible also says:

    Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    So we see that some may say they believe but so do the devils.The reprobate and regenerate know that God does exist but the difference is the belief of the regenerate is a saving belief given by God.

    my 2 cents,

    RM

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    Re: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    I too believe in a repentant faith. Let's not presuppose I don't.

    My question is:

    Is the gospel presented in chapter 7 in the PDL a false gospel? I believe it is a false gospel.

    Yoder

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    Re: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    The Purpose Driven Life is very prevalent in my area. I know of four churches in my area which have started to go through this book. Some in Sunday School, some in bible studies. One of the churches is a new church which is basing what it does on Rick Warren's purpose driven philosophy.


    Here are some observations on "The Purpose Driven Life."

    I. "The Purpose Driven Life" maintains and promotes a poor theology stemming from an inadequate bibliology. Verses are used out of context from numerous paraphrases and placed in the author's own context. References and the version to the passage of the Bible being quoted are not in the immediate text but are included as endnotes at the back of the book. This is unfortunate as many people who read books do not read the endnotes.

    Warren includes an appendix for why he uses so many versions, and why sometimes he will quote only part of a verse. The reasons he gives are:

    1) To avoid missing nuances and shades of meaning.
    2) To, "see God's truth in new, fresh ways." Italics not added.

    It is interesting that his second reason contradicts the first. If you look at objective truth in new, fresh ways, you are almost surely introducing additional nuances, and shades of meaning.

    Seeing God's truth in new, fresh ways is reminiscent of the author's misuse of Prov. 18:15 in his book "The Purpose Driven Church" (Page 68.) He quotes Proverbs 18:15 from the Living Bible, "The intelligent man is always open to new ideas. In fact, he looks for them." He uses this to justify a pragmatic approach of learning.

    We are not to look for new ideas. We are to look for the objective truth of Scripture and to apply that to the situation we are placed in.

    Proverbs 18:15 "The mind of the prudent acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge."

    The Bible contains objective truth which is inspired by God, sufficient, and authoritative. While the application varies, the meaning remains the same.

    The author's misuse and careless handling of the Bible gives evidence regarding the author's view of the inspiration, sufficiency, and authority of the Bible in a practical sense.

    II. This book misrepresents and distorts the gospel. It overlooks the fact that an unbeliever does have an identity, as well as a purpose in his life outside of a relationship with Christ. That in fact man's purpose, nature, and identity is hostile to God, fallen, and totally depraved apart from salvation. The book glosses over, minimizes, or ignores realities such as: the seriousness of sin before a holy God, the need for salvation, that God is righteous, just, holy, etc.

    The heading of Chapter 7 has the following verse:

    Proverbs 16:4 (NLT)
    "The Lord has made everything for his own purposes."

    However, this is not the complete verse! Here is the complete verse in the (NLT) and then the (NASB).

    Proverbs 16:4 (NLT)
    "The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for punishment."

    Proverbs 16:4 (NASB)
    "The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil."

    The heading of chapter 2 quotes Isaiah 44:2a as follows:

    Isaiah 44:2a (CEV)
    "I am your Creator. You were in my care even before you were born."

    By using Isaiah 44:2a the author acknowledges that he is only quoting half the verse.

    By using Proverbs 16:4 instead of Prov. 16:4a, the reader is deceived into thinking that the whole verse has been quoted.

    Not only that, but the second half of the verse is in opposition to a major component of the author's thesis!

    III. As a side note, Isaiah 44:2a is used in the context of the title of Chapter 2. It is immediately below, "You are Not an Accident."

    Here is the verse in context:

    Isaiah 44:1-2 (NASB)

    1) "But now listen, O Jacob, My servant, And Israel, whom I have chosen:
    2) Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you, 'Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen.

    This is surely seeing Isaiah 44:2 in a "new, fresh" way. The reader is lead to believe the verse refers to them, however the verse in its entirety and in context applies to Israel.

    The author does this again with Jeremiah 29:11. Where he writes, "If you have felt hopeless hold on! Wonderful changes are going to happen in your life as you begin to live it on purpose. God says, "I know what I am planning for you.... 'I have good plans for you, not plans to hurt you. I will give you hope and a good future.'"

    Here is the verse in context:

    Jeremiah 29:8-14 (NASB)

    8 "For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, 'Do not let your prophets who are in your midst and your diviners deceive you, and do not listen to the dreams which they dream.
    9 'For they prophesy falsely to you in My name; I have not sent them,' declares the LORD.
    10 "For thus says the LORD, 'When seventy years have been completed for Babylon, I will visit you and fulfill My good word to you, to bring you back to this place.
    11 'For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.
    12 'Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you.
    13 'You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
    14 'I will be found by you,' declares the LORD, 'and I will restore your fortunes and will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you,' declares the LORD, 'and I will bring you back to the place from where I sent you into exile.'

    IV. The audience of the book includes both believers and unbelievers. However, this book does not maintain a distinction between the two. Promises which apply only to believers are stated as if they apply to both. Unbelievers can become deceived and believe they are saved, when they have not heard the gospel which does save.

    V. The book makes an experientially based, pragmatic appeal to the reader. This is given as the basis for the book's authority. The following are some quotes from the beginning of the book:

    "This is more than a book; it is a guide to a 40-day spiritual journey that will enable you to discover the answer to life's most important question: What on earth am I here for? By the end of this journey you will know God's purpose for your life and will understand the big picture -- how all the pieces of your life fit together. Having this perspective will reduce your stress, simplify your decisions, increase your satisfaction, and, most important, prepare you for eternity." Page 9.

    "The next 40 days will transform your life." Page 10.

    "I know all the great things that are going to happen to you. They happened to me, and I have never been the same since I discovered the purpose of my life." Page 12.

    Notice the emphatic nature of these claims. Also, the fact that they are not true. By the end of the journey the reader might not know their purpose, they might not have been transformed, great things might not have happened.

    Notice the pragmatic nature and basis that it worked for me, so I know it will work for you.

    Contrast this with John Piper writing about his book, "Desiring God." He writes, "This book will be predominantly a meditation on Scripture. It will be expository rather than speculative. If I cannot show that Christian Hedonism comes from the Bible, I do not expect anyone to be interested, let alone persuaded. There are a thousand man-made philosophies of life. If this is another, let it pass. There is only on rock: the Word of God. Only one thing ultimately matters: glorifying God the way he has appointed. That is why I am a Christian Hedonist. That is why I wrote this book."

    VI. The Purpose Driven Life misrepresents scripture from the outset. The basis of 40 days is faulty. Warren states that whenever God wanted to prepare someone for his purposes, he took 40 days. He then gives the following examples:

    Noah’s life transformed by 40 days of rain.

    Moses transformed by 40 days on Mt. Sinai.

    Spies transformed by 40 days in the Promised Land.

    David transformed by Goliath’s 40-day challenge.

    Elijah transformed when God gave him 40 days from a single meal.

    Entire city of Nineveh transformed when God gave the people 40 days to change.

    Jesus empowered by 40 days in the wilderness.

    Disciples transformed by 40 days with Jesus after His resurrection.

    It is plainly seen that this is simply not true.

    The flood was judgment on the world, not preparing Noah for God’s Purposes.

    Moses was given the law on Mt. Sinai, it was not about life change for Moses.

    2 of the spies were faithful and not changed, 10 were faithless.

    David heard about the challenge after the 40 days had already happened.

    The Bible does not maintain that whenever God wanted to prepare someone for his purposes, he took 40 days. Again this is an example of scripture being misused to back up the author’s thoughts and to try to persuade the reader of the importance of the book.

    This book is laced with inaccuracies, with misrepresentations of Scripture, this is the tip of the iceberg!

    Hopefully this was helpful.

    Thanks,
    Tim Todd

    The author Warren takes you through a day by day daily devotional realization that there is a God who has a purpose and plan for your life. It has some scripture albeit all new paraphrase type non-translations with questions to consider and points to ponder. It builds up to day 7 (where I got to before I could read it no further) when you are ready to "invite Jesus into your heart". Here is the magic prayer that he includes to "receive salvation" I think it says it all: "Jesus, I believe in you and I receive you." To that he adds: "If you sincerely meant that prayer, congratulations! Welcome to the family of God!" This is not the watered down gospel, it is a false gospel, which is no gospel at all! I am very glad that the staff at Grace is available to review such chaff so that I can spend my precious time reading more profitable stuff.

    If you do not think this "Purpose Driven Life" thing is big, think again. I pastor a small rural church in the Sierra Foothills population 400 and our local three page paper is running ads for this event at a local church here in town. It is everywhere!

    I never wanted to read this book as I was familiar with the background and writings of the writer but I did it as a favor for a friend so I could show him the error (which didn't take long to find I might add).

    Avoid this one is my advice. A 40 days spiritual journey is what the author promises, 40 days of wandering is what you'll find. 40, wandering, ring a bell? This book is just more of the same "Seeker stuff" from one of it's guru's Rick Warren. I love James MacDonald's response to the seeker movement "The seeker movement, subtitled: How to Fill Your Church with Tares".

    Hope this helps...

    In Christ

    Mark Retzlaff

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    Re: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    Robert,

    When I officially switched to Reformed theology a couple of years ago--it was a bit of a slow process; the pieces came together a little at a time--I remember reading this passage from Ephesians:

    "For by grace ye are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9)

    Now I had always looked at this passage as saying, of course, that we are not saved by any works, but by the grace of God we are saved through faith. But then I saw it in a different light: the way the verse is constructed, it is saying that faith itself is a gift of God! So then I read it like this: "For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that [meaning faith] not of yourselves..." Saving faith is a gift!

    Also, when you pointed out John 6:29, it just now occurred to me that I had been reading the passage wrongly. I had perceived this to mean that the 'work' of God was to believe in Jesus Christ, Whom the Father sent from Heaven. In other words, a rebuttal to those who had asked Him about working the works of God (John 6:28); a way of saying that works just won't cut it. True enough, but you had highlighted the words "This is the work of God", and I realized---true belief is a work of God! I believe this was what Jesus meant here.

    Thank you Robert!


    Jason


    Quote Originally Posted by RobertM
    Hey guys,

    New here so I figure I will go ahead and jump in.

    I think one of the points that we easily miss is recognizing the fountain head of faith, repentance, belief etc. The question is, is belief, faith and repentance something we concoct in ourselves or is it a gift from God given to those who he has sovereignly chose or predestined. I believe they are and here are some scriptures I think that may help.

    Faith is a gift-

    Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    Belief is a gift-

    John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    Repentance is a gift-

    Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    Basically my point is that salvation and all it's particulars are gifts given from God to his elect. And none of his sheep will resist him. Arminians have had it wrong all along by assuming somehow we just "choose" to believe, repent and so on.

    We also have to understand that there are two different beliefs in the bible. There is a saving belief, which I showed earlier (J.6:29). But the bible also says:

    Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    So we see that some may say they believe but so do the devils.The reprobate and regenerate know that God does exist but the difference is the belief of the regenerate is a saving belief given by God.

    my 2 cents,

    RM

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    Re: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    First of all, the bible does not teach that we are to develop anything spiritual in and of ourselves -- especially "a heart for the world". Instead, we are to simply yield to God and His Word -- that is, "let go and let God", as the saying goes. For me to develop something implies that I am in control and affecting my own change. It denotes a psychological transformation that occurs through personal experience, trial and error, human interaction and the praxis (or practice) of Hegel’s dialectic, otherwise known as the Hegelian Dialectic or "Diaprax". Spiritual attributes are not developed like muscles on men but are given like gifts from God. You either have them or you don’t. They are not designed and "developed" over time through human initiative and experimentation.

    But the bible does say in Jude 20, "But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost." That alone will dislodge the "mind of Christ" to discern every input of false doctrine. Another is Heb 4.11, "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. Proverbs 4 tells you to, "guard your heart more than anything you treasure," and to "cling to instruction and never let it go." How do you assimilate by yielding, unless you actively read the bible. Though by grace, I believe you are to grow up in God, "mortify the deeds of the body…through the spirit" (Rom 8.13). Gifts are given, severally, as God wills, but there is yet the sanctification of the soul—an ongoing process of holiness.

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    Re: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason777
    Now I had always looked at this passage as saying, of course, that we are not saved by any works, but by the grace of God we are saved through faith. But then I saw it in a different light: the way the verse is constructed, it is saying that faith itself is a gift of God! So then I read it like this: "For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that [meaning faith] not of yourselves..." Saving faith is a gift!
    i believe that faith is a gift (in the sense that we are enabled to believe by God) but i do not believe that this verse explicitly teaches that (in other words, i wouldn't use this as a prooftext for the belief that faith is a gift). this concept must be found in other places (perhaps phil 1:29, acts 18:27).

    i'm not sure what you mean by "the way the verse is constructed", but the antecedent for the demonstrative pronoun (i.e., greek - TOUTO translated "that") cannot be "faith" (greek - PISTEWS) because greek grammar does not allow it. in greek, antecendents (for pronouns and adjectives) must agree with the word they modify (e.g., in case, number, and gender) but here "faith" is feminine and "that" is neuter. so it is not correct to make the statement that "that" refers to "faith." the antecedent for the demonstrative pronoun "that" here is most likely the gracious salvation ("we are saved by grace...") mentioned. this would obviously include faith so the point may be moot, but we must be careful not to say that "that" refers to "faith" because that is a false statement grammatically.
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
    --Erasmus

    A room without books is a body without soul.
    --Cicero

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    Re: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    Isn't TOUTO translated "that (thing)"?

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    Re: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    Quote Originally Posted by Amish Dave
    Isn't TOUTO translated "that (thing)"?
    perhaps if it appeared all alone, outside of any context. demonstrative pronouns normally have an antecedent (i.e., they modify/refer to something else that comes earlier, precedes it...thus ante - before, cedere - to go), so in this context it is just translated as "that" and it modifies/refers to something earlier in the sentence (e.g., the gracious salvation).
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
    --Erasmus

    A room without books is a body without soul.
    --Cicero

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    Re: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    I have hard a hard time breaking this verse down.

    Saved is a verb and I thought for sure that "that" wouldn't be talking about salvation. I thought for sure it would be talking about faith or grace or both.

    Dave

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    Re: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    Quote Originally Posted by Amish Dave
    I have hard a hard time breaking this verse down.

    Saved is a verb and I thought for sure that "that" wouldn't be talking about salvation. I thought for sure it would be talking about faith or grace or both.

    Dave
    "faith" (PISTEWS) cannot be the antecendent and neither can "grace" (CARITI) because it is also feminine. this is not allowed grammatically. from what i understand, the general consensus of scholars (cf. Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond Basics) is that the antecedent is the concept paul is speaking of (the gracious salvation) rather than a specific word (e.g., faith or grace). basically what paul seems to be saying is that what he's currently talking about, that whole thing he had just mentioned, is not of yourselves (e.g., it's not from man, not conjured up by man, man did not make it happen, it wasn't a result of God's response to man's efforts; instead it is a gracious gift of God and originates from His plan and purpose and grace). does that make sense? structurally (if you were to diagram the sentence), it is hard to figure out the antecedent (since there is no neuter that appears before TOUTO) but it is clear what the antecedent is not and if you can grasp the pragmatics of the text, it becomes pretty clear what the antecendent must/should be.
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
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    A room without books is a body without soul.
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    Re: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    So what you are saying is that it is just as hard to understand in the greek as it is in the english. *laugh*

    I get what you are saying.

    Thanks for taking the time.

    Dave

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    Re: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    Quote Originally Posted by Amish Dave
    So what you are saying is that it is just as hard to understand in the greek as it is in the english. *laugh*
    yeah pretty much LOL!

    here are some links for further info:

    http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/97-02/0221.html
    http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b...ry/024442.html

    here is an excerpt from robertson's word pictures:

    Neuter, not feminine \tautˆ\, and so refers not to \pistis\ (feminine) or to \charis\ (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (\ex hum“n\, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (\d“ron\) and not the result of our work.
    http://www.ccel.org/r/robertson/word.../EPH2.RWP.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Amish Dave
    Thanks for taking the time.
    you're welcome. it is truly my pleasure.
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
    --Erasmus

    A room without books is a body without soul.
    --Cicero

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    Re: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    faith" (PISTEWS) cannot be the antecendent and neither can "grace" (CARITI) because it is also feminine.
    This(no pun intended) is simply not true as Robertson also admits in his grammar. On page 704 Robertson notes that "in general" the demonstrative "agrees with its substantive in gender and number." However, as the sentence implies, it does not always. It is also the general rule that unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise the antecedent should be looked for in the immediate vicinity of the pronoun or adjective that refers to it. So Robertson's explanation breaks another general rule.

    the general consensus of scholars (cf. Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond Basics) is that the antecedent is the concept paul is speaking of (the gracious salvation) rather than a specific word (e.g., faith or grace).
    "General consensus" and "scholars" should almost never be used in the same sentence together, and in this case they definitely shouldn't. Wallace himself offers two possibilities.

    The neuter demonstrative is used in certain instances when more than one word is being referred to and so it is possible gramatically that it is referring both to grace and faith.

    Caird believes that it simply refers to faith.

    I do think that the basic explanation given by Wallace is correct but not the further step in which he takes that application and in this sense it could be said that most scholarly Bible commentators agree with him as well. "This" does seem most likely to be referring to the entire preceding section and it is used similarly in other parts of Ephesians. However, I don't believe it properly fits the context of the passage to say that the fact that we are saved by grace through faith is what is being called the gift of God. The whole purpose of the passage seems to be saying that there is absolutely nothing that we do that we can boast in and that every single minute part of it is a gift of God not merely the process by which it occurs. In this case, faith would also be included as being a gift of God but would not be the only thing included. I believe this is the same way P. T. O'Brien takes it but I would have to check.

    What should also be noted is that this passage just like all passages in the Bible when speaking about salvation and faith say we are saved by or through faith. The accusative is never used which would have the meaning of on account of. We are saved on account of the blood of Christ, never, never, never on account of our faith.

    Sola Gratia,
    WildBoar
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    This(no pun intended) is simply not true as Robertson also admits in his grammar. On page 704 Robertson notes that "in general" the demonstrative "agrees with its substantive in gender and number." However, as the sentence implies, it does not always.
    i don't know what you mean by "no pun intended" as we're talking about "that" (hOUTOS) not "this" (EKEINOS).

    to respond to your comment, i've heard of exceptions to concord in number or case but never in concord of gender (in other words, the antecedent to TOUTO cannot just be PISTEWS or CARITI). does robertson admit that the "general rule" is violated in Eph 2:8 in his grammar (in contradiction to his word pictures)? if so, on what basis is the exception made?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    However, as the sentence implies, it does not always.
    so what are the exceptions? i don't have robertson's tomb so perhaps you could provide us with the sentence (quote) that contains this implication. thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    It is also the general rule that unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise the antecedent should be looked for in the immediate vicinity of the pronoun or adjective that refers to it. So Robertson's explanation breaks another general rule.
    in all of the greek grammars that i've ever read, the rule is concord in number and gender for pronouns with their antecedents (case is determined by its function in the sentence) not location in the sentence. i don't know where you get your "general rule" but it does not apply to greek (this may be true in english). location in the sentence (e.g., fronting) in greek serves the purpose of emphasis not function in the sentence. i am really curious as to where you get your general rule that you suggest here. am i misunderstanding you here or did you possibly mispeak?

    also, what other "general rule" does robertson's explanation break? perhaps i don't know what you are meaning by "immediate vicinity." is not the gracious salvation in the immediate vicinity of TOUTO? how close do the words have to be? i could see your comment applying if he was trying to say that the antecedent was 29 sentences/phrases prior but we're talking in the same sentence/phrase here are we not?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    "General consensus" and "scholars" should almost never be used in the same sentence together, and in this case they definitely shouldn't. Wallace himself offers two possibilities.
    but what is the "other" possibility? i might be mistaken, but i'm pretty sure that it's not that PISTEWS is the antecedent to TOUTO (if that's what you are allowing or arguing).
    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    The neuter demonstrative is used in certain instances when more than one word is being referred to and so it is possible gramatically that it is referring both to grace and faith.
    i would be open to admit this possibility but i would think that it should then be TOUTA (pl.) not TOUTO (sg.). it is certain that the antecedent to the demonstrative pronoun is not only one of them (i.e., just PISTEWS or just CARITI). i think that the best grammatical option is to understand the antecedent as the entire concept (e.g., "the by grace through faith salvation") rather than "grace and faith" (as if they were just two words connected by KAI). as far as i understand it, greek grammar does not work as you are proposing.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    What should also be noted is that this passage just like all passages in the Bible when speaking about salvation and faith say we are saved by or through faith. The accusative is never used which would have the meaning of on account of. We are saved on account of the blood of Christ, never, never, never on account of our faith.
    very good comment. this is crucial in a discussion on the role of faith in salvation. God does not reward our faith with salvation as if it were our contribution or our 'works' that we offer Him, but He is pleased to graciously save us through (DIA + genitive) or by (dative with or without EN) faith as the means through which our salvation might be applied to us in space-time history.
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
    --Erasmus

    A room without books is a body without soul.
    --Cicero

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    Re: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    i don't know what you mean by "no pun intended" as we're talking about "that" (hOUTOS) not "this" (EKEINOS).
    I'm afraid you have the two reversed. The KJV does translate it as "that" but "this" is the primary meaning listed in all Greek lexicons I know of and usually when speaking of different things it refers to the closer of two objects. Greek poetry does this all over the place where two objects or people are mentioned and the poem goes on forever never mentioning the names of the people again but using ekeinos to refer to the first and houtos to the second.

    does robertson admit that the "general rule" is violated in Eph 2:8 in his grammar (in contradiction to his word pictures)? if so, on what basis is the exception made?
    No, Robertson does not say that this rule is violated in Eph. 2:8 but he does say that it is a general rule and does not state that it is always the case. General rules don't keep the nominative absolutes out of the book of Revelation or a number of the other things which seem foreign to much of conventional Greek out of that book. Whatever the explanation is, Eph. 2:8 steps out of the bounds of the "general rule" in some way.

    i would be open to admit this possibility but i would think that it should then be TOUTA (pl.) not TOUTO (sg.). it is certain that the antecedent to the demonstrative pronoun is not only one of them (i.e., just PISTEWS or just CARITI).
    The neuter singular can be and is used to refer to a number of things within a whole, I don't have time to provide examples right now but will try to later.

    If you have access, I would highly recommend reading O'Brien's commentary on this. His commentary on Ephesians is the best I've seen. For a shorter treatment of the problems involved Hendriksen is pretty good as well.

    Sola Gratia,
    WildBoar
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Rick Warren-THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIE

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    I'm afraid you have the two reversed. The KJV does translate it as "that" but "this" is the primary meaning listed in all Greek lexicons I know of and usually when speaking of different things it refers to the closer of two objects. Greek poetry does this all over the place where two objects or people are mentioned and the poem goes on forever never mentioning the names of the people again but using ekeinos to refer to the first and houtos to the second.
    you are correct. my apologies. hOUTOS=this, EKEINOS=that.
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
    --Erasmus

    A room without books is a body without soul.
    --Cicero

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