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Thread: The Trinity

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    The Trinity

    (kermie, feel free to move this if you fell led to place it in a different topic).

    For your edification:

    The Trinity of God


    ------------------------------------

    "I don’t believe in the trinity"

    "The word trinity isn’t even in the Bible"

    "I serve 1 God, not 3"

    These are some of the comments you might hear from people who tell you they don’t believe in the triune nature of God.

    We believe God is one, in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    Let’s see what the Bible has to say about it. While this list of verses is in no way a comprehensive list of verses in Scripture that address this issue, it is our hope that this list will spark a hunger in you for a deeper study of the issue of the trinity of God.

    Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    Additional verses that support this statement:

    Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

    Colossians 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

    Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shallconceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and theyshall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

    John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know,and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

    John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou notknown me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

    John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the wordsthat I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeththe works.

    John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

    John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that the also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
    "SOLA SCRIPTURA… GRATIA… FIDE… CHRISTUS… DEO GLORIA" Scripture alone, being our final authority, teaches us that salvation is by grace His grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone.

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    Of course it was the Orthodox Church that formulated even the word Trinity. This was done during the first and second ecumenical councils, from which we recieve the Nicene Creed. It was long the tradition of the Church that God exists as three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. However, it took the Orthodox Church to translate that tradition into an ecumenical statement.

    It should be pointed out however, that there are numerous passages that indicate that Jesus and God are not one, but two different beings. Many people hold this view, but The Church anathmatized this belief long ago.
    Peter

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    Peter:

    you said:
    "It should be pointed out however, that there are numerous passages that indicate that Jesus and God are not one, but two different beings. Many people hold this view, but The Church anathmatized this belief long ago."

    What verses show that Jesus and God are not One?
    There are 3 persons in the Godhead but only one God.

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    As I said, some people believe this way. I do not. I believe that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are on in every way, just as the Orthodox Church defined it and (most) Protestants accept it. THe idea that Jesus and God are two seperate beings, that Jesus was created are ancient heresies that have been condemned by The Church long ago. Those continuing in this line of thought are certainly not Orthodox.

    Here are two passages they use to "prove" their point:
    I John 8:17-18.
    Col. 1:15
    Peter

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    Peter:

    I did not say that you believed that way. I just wanted to know what were the "numerous passages that indicate that Jesus and God are not one, but two different beings." I do think though that by saying that "numerous passages that indicate that Jesus and God are not one, but two different beings." you are inplying that you belive what you are saying. It would be more clear if you would of said "There are numerous passages that SEEM to indicate that Jesus and God are not one, but two different beings." Becasue by saying that the passages DO MEAN that they are 2 seperate being then it is like you belive it.

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    LOL to say that the Father and Son are not one would mean a person would have to say they do not believe the bible is creditable.

    -- New King James
    John 10:30 "I and My Father are one.''


    Kinda pretty straight foreward there

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    Peter...

    The doctrine of the triune nature of God, has always been...

    The "church" (I assume you're referring to the Roman Catholic church?) aside, the glory as always, goes back to God.

    If you wish to exalt the "church", the Roman Catholic church, this is not the place for that.
    "SOLA SCRIPTURA… GRATIA… FIDE… CHRISTUS… DEO GLORIA" Scripture alone, being our final authority, teaches us that salvation is by grace His grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone.

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    No CA. I think that Peter is referring to the Eastern Orthodox church.

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    Blackhaw is quick and well informed. Of course I was refering to the Orthodox Church. The Church that assembled the Holy Writings, articulated the doctrine of the Trinity and from whom Rome broke away. But that can go under Church history. This is fun. What a great forum.
    Peter

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    Cool Learning what being one means

    One of Christ last prayers was father make them one in me as I am one in you. So how do we perceive this spiritual concept.
    There is certainly one God, one eternal life, one original being. Now when he decided to create he took His life and breathed it into His creation. on each instance he created a piece of himself in His creations. His life, His breath. So if we understand what Christ said about, those who already eat my flesh and drink my blood truly already have eternal lfe in them. Why is this? in order to see God as the life in all we must see this world as part of his spiritual body. Yes, when we take a drink of water we are drinking His blood.When we evaluate ourselves in the light of this truth we are absolutely a part of God's being in Jesus. I think that makes us eternal, one in God through Jesus!!!! Holy!!! Don't forget He is a supernatural God. So if we truly see God in all, as the life seeing out the eyes of all, some of our Lord's other teachings begin to form.
    Teachings like, you cannot hate your brother and love God, why? God lives in all. Jesus said, I am the life, the way, the truth, and the light.
    So the concept of being one begins to show us about the trinity as beings existing totally within God as God, with humility towards the Father.
    So with this understanding it is easy to see the trinity as extension of our father, he speaks in them. If he reveals Himself to us in Christ, is it not God talking. When Moses was chosen to represent the Israelies before God he said, Lord, do not chose me for I am slow of tongue. The Lord said, is it not I that make men speak. So there is no coincidence you wonder these things, there is no coincidence I am telling you these things, and there is no doubt that if we lay our conceptions of life in this dark world down we will begin to hear His call in all things. Yes all things have His life, maybe with this we can learn to love life as one, think about it.
    Peace

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    Post An understanding....

    I have heard words used to describe the divine Nature of God like Trinity or Godhead. I have heard analogies to help explain His nature such as analogies of the sun, fire, or an egg. Scripture says that the Three are One and the One is Three. There are far more than 3 names for God but our Lord, The Christ, Who Is, referred to himself as The Son. He referred to His Father in Heaven, Who Is the only Good Master. He also referred to The Holy Spirit Whom His Father sends to us. I’ve asked God for answers to the meaning of this mystery for none have given me an answer I can make peace with.

    The Key to the Door
    For a long time I thought I would never receive an answer. I thought to myself, “God is infinite so how can I, a being who is finite, ever hope to understand Him?” The beginning of my search for understanding came with a verse in Genesis that I had known long before I ever sought enlightenment into how ‘The Three Who Are One’ could ever be understood.

    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Genesis 1 (KJV)

    If we are created in His image then we look like Him. If we are created in His likeness then we are like Him. We share in His nature because He made us that way. I believe in The Word so I believe that I, like all men, am created in His image and likeness. To understand the nature of man is to understand God. But man is flawed and God is not. Until The Christ came we did not know what a perfect man was like and so the lesson was incomplete. I have good news. The Christ came and lived the life of a perfect man in order to die innocent that we who are guilty may be forgiven! When it was accomplished the example was set and the lesson complete. He forgave as The Son of man and prayed to His Father that His will be done. He worked wonders with the awesome power of The Holy Spirit. I set out to understand myself by trying to define man from what I and the others around me are and what those who came before me were.


    In God’s Image
    As a mechanical engineer my education has finally served a worthy purpose in that I can understand man’s image far more than man’s likeness. Are not all men alike in this respect? Anyone can see the image of a man in a statue or painting and say that it is the image of a man but we are more than what we can see on the outside.

    The image of man is that of a machine with 3 major systems. They are the control system (in our modern age we might call this a logic or computer system), the fuel system, and the mechanical system. In the machine of man all other sub-systems support these three. I call these things the flesh.

    The center of the control system is the brain. It uses the nervous and sensory systems regulate and control the flesh. It knows hot and cold and all the degrees in between. It knows up from down and left from right. It interprets all the things that are sensed through the flesh. It tells the flesh when it is hungry, when it is thirsty, and when it is tired. It is a thing of logic controls, or 1’s and 0’s, of hungry or full, of tired or rested.

    The center of the fuel system is the heart. The heart provides the body with life through the nutrients carried in the blood as well as protection from infections and disease (also carried in the blood). Its purpose is to send the blood throughout the flesh in order to repair, replenish, and maintain it with the things found in the blood. Without the heart and the blood it pumps life cannot be sustained for the energy in our blood is the fuel and thus the life of the flesh.

    The mechanical system has no center. It is the body and on its own has no purpose, direction, or need. It is controlled by the brain and sustained by the heart. The body is a thing of action only. All things done in the physical world are done by the body. We eat but the brain tells the flesh when the body needs to eat and the heart provides the life with which to do it. We drink but the brain tells the flesh when the body needs to drink and the heart provides the life with which to do it. Our body replenishes strength and heals its self when it rests but the brain tells the flesh when to rest and no regeneration (either through healing or rest) occurs unless the heart provides the life with which to do it.

    God made the human flesh as a machine controlled by the brain, fueled by the heart, and moved by the body. In the human flesh we are three. In God’s image we were made three.


    In God’s Likeness
    Man, like God, has a triple nature. We are mind, heart, and spirit. These things I will call the human soul. Since the majority of my life thus far has been spent living in a physical world the human soul is more difficult to understand. The Lord is wise to have given us two examples and so, from the human image, I gain insight into the human soul.

    The human mind is a thing of logic and intellect. The mind is a tool of reason and judgment. The law is a thing that the mind can grasp but grace escapes it. It only knows innocent or guilty, right or wrong, 1 and 0. The mind is a thing satisfied only with answers and facts.

    The human heart is a thing of feelings and desires. The heart is a thing of emotion and thought. It knows nothing of reason or logic. From the heart flows all manner of thought desire from man.

    The human spirit is a thing of inspiration and motivation. When we are stirred we say that something has moved our spirit. When our spirit moves us we are able to do things to the best of our abilities and when it doesn’t we can’t seem to do anything right.

    God made the human soul a thing of reason, thought, and inspiration. In the human soul we are three. In God’s likeness we are made three.

    Imperfection
    God truly is wise to give us not one but two examples by which we can understand Him. In God’s image our flesh was made three. In His likeness our souls were made three. Through our imperfections we are not one.

    The human soul is at constant war with itself. We have trouble determining whether to follow our hearts or our minds and our spirits are confused and lacking guidance or purpose from the other two who cannot seem to agree on anything.

    In the flesh our brains are feeble and fragile and our hearts are failing. The body pays the ultimate price for the imperfections of the brain and heart. The heart stops and the body becomes limp. The brain errs and we cannot judge distance or temperature and thus at times we flail about damaging ourselves. Over time and through enough mistakes our bodies become too frail and damaged to function properly so it becomes lame and broken. Its eyes become blind, its ears become deaf, and its mouth becomes dumb.

    Further, the needs of the flesh conflict with the desires of the soul (even the first man had this particular problem…nothings changed) and thus we are further fragmented. There is a great schism between the flesh and the soul because in them the three are not one but are at a constant war with each other. Men of greatness were so few and far apart that we could not see or agree upon what made them great.

    Christ changed all that. If a man knows himself well enough he can become at peace. His flesh can be healthy and in harmony with itself and his soul as tranquil as still waters. Then he is ready to submit to The Father, hear The Word, and be moved by The Spirit to greatness but without Him we are nothing.

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    An Understanding (cont'd)

    Perfection of the Flesh
    Our Lord came and set the standard for all men to see. Now all men can come to submit to The Father through belief in The Son. All men can be moved by The Spirit because The Christ is The Way. He was The Example. Like sheep we are to follow The Good Shepard.

    In the flesh Christ was at peace. He could travel the desert for 40 days and nights without food and water. He could resist the temptations of the flesh and endure great pain and hardship because his flesh was in submission to his soul.

    Perfection of the Soul
    In his soul Christ was in submission to God and so his spirit was filled with The Holy Spirit. He could heal the sick, feed the hungry, raise the dead but more importantly…he could forgive. In all humility he knew that the only Good Master was The Father so he did not judge. Forgiveness is easy when man learns that he is no better or worst than his brother but that all men fall short before The Father. In the end there will only be two types of men, those who are saved and those who fall short. Christ brought The Truth. All men fall short. Only the ones we recognize The Truth will be saved so Christ tells us to forgive that we may be forgiven.


    Christ as God

    God is The only perfect Soul. Even angles are not perfect. How could they be if their first (like our first) could sin? God, however, Is perfect. He came Himself to show us that we may understand our Creator, in Who’s image and likeness we were created, and thus better understand ourselves. How can a servant serve is he cannot understand what he was given to serve with?

    In God there are three. The Three are The Father, The Son, and The Spirit. These Three are one in purpose and understanding. God is so perfect in His knowledge of Himself that The Three are One and yet still Three. The Three are forever cooperating and in agreement and so They are One. The Three are forever mindful of the significance of the others and forever humble in their own purpose that they are Three.

    The Father is The Judge. The Father is The Intellect. The Father is the mind of God. When one is their it is because The Father sent him with a purpose. The Father is The Just One from which infinite justice flows. He is fairness without flaw and thus it is His to judge, to avenge, to know all things. Through the Father all things are made possible. Through His wisdom the wise are caught in their craftiness. He is forever in The Kingdom of Heaven and the angles sing His praises. He is perfect reason and flawless judgment and He is One with God.

    The Son is The Wellspring. He is The Heart of God. He is The Truth, The Way, and The Light. None may enter unto The Father but by Him. When one is there The Son is always their with him to speak on behalf of The Father. The Son is The Lamb Who takes away the sins of the earth. God so loved the earth that He sent His Son to reconcile man with God. He is The One from which all of God’s perfect love flows. His is to teach, nurture, love, and forgive all who believe in Him. He is patient and kind. He does not envy, he does not boast. He is not proud or rude or self seeking. He is not easily angered and he keeps no record of wrongs. He rejoices with truth. He always protects, trusts, hopes and perseveres and He is One with God.

    The Spirit is The Hand of God. Through The Spirit the God’s wonders are made manifest. Blind are made to see, the deaf to hear, the dumb to speak, the lame to walk. Through The Spirit the glory of The Father is shouted on the rooftops in the name of Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ of God. Indeed The Spirit moves all of creation to cry out with one voice to The Creator and He is One with God.


    The Growing Understanding

    What I have tried to express here is not an answer but an understanding. Realize that understanding is not finding the answer to a question but finding the deeper question for which we are to be given an answer. In understanding the nature of God we come to better understand ourselves…we who are made in His image and likeness. In better understanding ourselves we come to know God better and thus can serve Him in greater knowledge and certainty of what He expects from us because the better we understand God then the better we can understand ourselves.

    This understanding is like a circle that you trace over and over again. The more times we complete the circle by tracing it out our understanding becomes clearer, deeper, and more defined with regards to how we as individuals fit into the will of The Father. As our understanding increases we allow more of ourselves to be moved by The Hand of God to do His Will in the name of His Love. Never stop seeking. We were built to be eternal; always changing and growing yet always the same.

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    God is One

    Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

    Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

    Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

    There is ONE GOD.

    Jesus calls the Father GOD:

    John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

    John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


    The church is purchased with the Blood of GOD: (Jesus' blood)

    Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


    People have died for Lying to GOD: (The Holy Spirit)

    Acts5:3-5 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost,...... thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.


    And so we see that the Father is God, Jesus(the Son) is God and the Holy Ghost is God but are they just three personalities of one God? If so then how can all be present at the same time?

    Matthew3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
    Matthew3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are three separate "persons" and yet at the same time they are One God. This is what the Bible shows and teaches, Trinity is a name given to these teachings. We do not need to totally understand how this can be, in order to believe that what the Bible teaches is true.

    Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

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    Post Re: God is One

    Originally posted by Word Walker
    And so we see that the Father is God, Jesus(the Son) is God and the Holy Ghost is God but are they just three personalities of one God? If so then how can all be present at the same time?
    Niether the scriptures you quoted nor the the previous post of an understanding of His nature suggest that The Three are simply different personalities so your question adds only confusion. God doesn't have multiple personalities anymore than you or I do. Just so that we do not futher mince words, a mood and a personality are two completely different things as well. The assuption on which you based your question is false and so the question itself cannot be answered correctly.

    The created cannot understand The Creator. The imperfect cannot understand The Perfection which created it. The imperfect can, however, understand the imperfect. The fact that one can see Three, Two of The Three, or One from The Three does not mean that the others are not present and it does not mean that The One, The Two, or The Three are different from the One God in any way.

    You cannot separate The Father, The Son, or The Spirit from God's person. To see One is to see Three. To see Three is to see One. How can this be? The same way you cannot separate your intellect, your heart, or your spirit from your person...and yet you are three. Even this is not fully understood by any man. The fact that man's foolish and flawed logic has led him to beleive in a condition called 'multiple personality disorder' is proof of his lack of understanding of himself. In our case the imperfect does not even understand the imperfect. It would be enough to get that far because we will get no further. To fully know and understand God is to be in Heaven. It is to be in His full presence and glory. The flesh cannot survive this complete understanding so certain questions, even if they ARE based some knowledge of The Truth, will not be reveiled until the death of the flesh. Will the imperfect ever be made to fully understand The Perfect? Through men this is impossible but through The Father all things are possible.

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    7th

    You're reply to me was in error As I was not directing my comment towards you but in general. Giving my "2 cents" as it were.

    As to your statement: "....so your question adds only confusion."

    It was not for the sake of confusion that I mentioned this but for the sake of clarity as there are many who believe and teach Modalism:


    ________http://www.carm.org/heresy/modalism.htm

    "Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God. It is a denial of the Trinity which states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three consecutive modes, or forms. ....... These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.

    __________________________________________

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    My mistake...

    ...what can I say? I'm a work in progress. Just look at my sig

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    Re: My mistake...

    Originally posted by 7th
    ...what can I say? I'm a work in progress. Just look at my sig
    LOL 7th!
    This is my signature.

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    Re: My mistake...

    Originally posted by 7th
    ...what can I say? I'm a work in progress. Just look at my sig
    If you're a work in progress then I'm an entire project!

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    Cool Re: Re: My mistake...

    Originally posted by kermie


    LOL 7th!

    Originally posted by Word Walker


    If you're a work in progress then I'm an entire project!
    HA! Who cannot say that we are brothers?

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