Pristine Grace
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst ... 2
Results 21 to 28 of 28

Thread: A Few Protestant Quotes About Sacralism

  1. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    351
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: A Few Protestant Quotes About Sacralism

    Here is the 1646 statement regarding God:

    "The Lord our God is but one God, whose subsistence is in Himself; Whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but Himself; Who only hath immortality dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; Who is in Himself most holy, every way infinite, in greatness, wisdom, power, love; merciful and gracious, long-suffering and abundant in goodness and truth, Who giveth being, moving, and preservation to all creatures.

    In this divine and infinite Being, there is the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided; all infinite, without any beginning, therefore but one God, Who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties"

    "Another question. Can you show me what the 1646 confession teaches about eternal generation. Thanks."

    Eternal generation is repudiated in these teachings, however, it is in the writings of the men who created this confession that we see a consistent rebuke of eternal generation.



  2. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Heaven
    Posts
    2,655
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: A Few Protestant Quotes About Sacralism

    Quote Originally Posted by bgamall
    Eternal generation is repudiated in these teachings, however, it is in the writings of the men who created this confession that we see a consistent rebuke of eternal generation.
    you have stated that you think the 1689 confession and the WCF teach eternal generation. would you mind showing us where/how? thanks!
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
    --Erasmus

    A room without books is a body without soul.
    --Cicero

  3. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    351
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: A Few Protestant Quotes About Sacralism

    Disciple, the following is what I have been able to find on the issue:


    "The Second London Confession was first issued in 1677. Then again, in 1689, and then later as the Philadelphia Baptist Confession, issued in 1743, sets forth a Trinity of Three Subsistences, not Persons. However, these Calvinized Baptist Creeds did set forth the Pagan, Papal and Protestant concept of a Divine Son by Eternal Generation. This is because the earlier First London Confession was largely unknown and its original drafters were now mostly dead or away from the center of Baptist influence. As time went on, many Biblical doctrines and expressions gave way to impure Calvinized Baptist thought concepts and expressions. Many of those who issued the First London Confession did not issue the Second London. There is a New Generation about in the Israel of God. Here are the remarks:
    3. In this divine and infinite Being there are three Subsistences, the Father, the Word (or Son) and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power and Eternity, each having the whole Divine Essence, yet the essence undivided, the Father is of none neither begotten nor proceeding, the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, the holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son, all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to e divided in nature and Being; but distinguished by several peculiar, relatives properties, and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our Commonion with God, and comfortable dependence on Him. A Confession of Faith put forth by the Elders and Brethren of Many Congregations of Christians (baptized upon Profession of their Faith) in London and the Country, Printed in the year 1677.

    There are little differences between this statement and the General Assembly Confession made in 1689 or 91 and still later the Philadelphia Confession of 1743. There are some differences:

    1. The Baptists did not use PERSONS, but did use the term Subsistences.

    2. Is there an essential difference between the terms persons and subsistences? Here is the definition of subsistence:

    Definition of Substances:
    a. Subsistence, 1. real being, actual existence. 2. that which furnishes support to animal life; means of support; support; livelihood, that which supplies the means of living; as a scanty subsistence. 3. Inherence in something else; as the subsistence of qualifies in bodies. 4. In theology, same as hypostasis; Webster’s Unabridged, page 1699.

    Definition of Hypostasis
    What means the term hypostasis: (Gr. hypostasis, a supporting, foundation, from hyphistanai, to set under, pass, to stand under; hypo, under, and hisanai, to stand, make to stand.)

    1. An underlying principle; some fact or supposition which lies at the foundation of a course of reasoning; in theology, substance, entity, or personality, especially of any member of the Trinity.

    2. In alchemy, a principle or basic substance;

    3. In medicine, any morbid deposition or setting down, as the sediment of urine. Webster. ibid. page 850.

    Please note the following:

    1. The Calvinized Particular Baptists who issued the Second London Confession tried to avoid calling God a person. They wanted the Trinity in three subsistences. This led into further difficulties and helped paved the way for semi-Unitarianism to be introduced among the English Baptists in less than one generation following this document.

    2. The theological usage of terms, which comes by giving them a special meaning, is called sacred meaning. It is a trick of the devil. Any time that theologians take terms, give them a private meaning, a sacred meaning, and leave the language of the common people, it is deceitful. Try this with the terms church and baptism.

    3. Still, in spite of not using the concept that God is a Trinity of Persons or divine people, these new Particular Baptists retained the Pagan, Papal and now Protestant theories or blasphemies of eternal generation and eternal procession.

    4. This is a clear departure from the First London Confession and their answer by Samuel Richardson to Daniel Featly about several things in general and these points in particular.

    5. The Calvinized Particular Baptists who issued the Second London Confession were apostates from the former position of the older Particular Baptists and the still older Anabaptists on these points.

    6. The newer generation in Israel were now embracing the terrible heresies that the older Particular Baptists and still older and historic Anabaptists denied

    7. Also, remember, one definition of subsistence, as it relates to the new theological double talk, or hot air, is PERSONALITY, not person, but personality.

    8. These Calvinized Baptists were laying the easy street to semi-Unitarianism, with their cloaked Sabellianism.

    9. The first London edition of 1644 has some Sabellian traits. These were eliminated when the Particular Baptists rejected Thomas Collier and his followers.

    10. Later Thomas Collier and his followers were back among the Particular Baptists, by their influence and through the many new converts from the General Baptists who were now coming over to the Particular Baptists after the Particulars had left their former ways.

    John Gill and John Brine reigned supreme among Baptists theologians during the mid and late 1700s in England and in America. They represent a mixture of Baptist, Biblical and Calvinistic theology."

  4. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    593
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: A Few Protestant Quotes About Sacralism

    bgamall. Can you provide any quotes from early Particular Baptists such as John Spilsbury, William Kiffin, and Hanserd Knollys, where they deny or refute "eternal generation". I would be interested to know the standpoint of these men because I have them in certain esteem as Baptist forebears.

    Then I will say that maintaining the doctrine of the Son of God being the eternal Divine Son of the eternal Father does not support the state church scheme nor sacralism, as I see it. I see no relation between the first and the latter two, except that state churchians and sacralists may have maintained this point.

    I know there are many non-Protestants and non-papists who repudiate the state church scheme and sacralism and legalism, but do maintain the doctrine of the eternal divine Sonship of the Lord Christ. This would to me prove that holding this doctrine has no vital relation to state churchianism and sacralism and legalism.


    Harald

  5. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Middleville, MI
    Posts
    3,577
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: A Few Protestant Quotes About Sacralism

    The terms subsistence and person, would both be accepted by most Trinitarians. Subsistence calls attention to simply the existence of something, while person calls attention to the individual personality and self-awareness. Neither terms do complete justice to the Trinity, but no human language can. They merely set up bumpers to keep people from veering off into heresy. Subsistence tends to minimize the true threeness of God while person tends to go to far if we apply the same way we think of individual persons to the persons within the Godhead.

    However, unless there is a condemnation of the teaching of eternal generation or God as three persons it is probably safer to assume that whichever Christian sect is being spoken of taught these things since these teachings are a part of the ecumenical creeds.

    If in fact these doctrines are being negated, actual quotes from those who wrote the confessions are needed to prove it, since anyone can slap something on the internet. Also, it would need to be shown that this is the consensus of those who were at the assembly. A person's subscription to the Westminster Confession for instance does not bind them to the teachings of the individual divines or even their interpretation of the confession.

    I still fail to see how eternal generation makes God bound by time as BT charges.

    Sola Gratia,
    WildBoar
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

  6. #26
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Hawaiian Islands
    Posts
    3,658
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    58
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    107
    Thanked in
    56 Posts

    Re: Time Not Created

    I still fail to see how eternal generation makes God bound by time as BT charges.

    If the Deity of the Son has been continuously generated by and derived from God the Father from all eternity past:

    a) Time, being eternal in the past, is not created.
    b) God, not having created time, has always existed within it and does not transcend it. His actions are therefore subject to its laws.
    c) The eternal Deity of Christ, therefore, is dependent on the law of time as well as how the Father, being alone God in his own underived essence, chooses to share the divine essence with another personage.

    I do accept 'eternal Sonship' in distinction to eternal generation, if by this is meant:

    a) As long as created time has existed, Jesus has been Son and Word in relation to the Father and the created universe.

    b) The economy of the Trinity in relation to creation and redemption is willed equally by all persons in the Trinity (who are all God in their own underived essence).

    I do believe the 1st London Confession denies eternal generation. I am thankful that at least a few erroneous doctrines from the history of post-apostolic dogma were challenged by the early Particular Baptists.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

  7. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Middleville, MI
    Posts
    3,577
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: A Few Protestant Quotes About Sacralism

    If the Deity of the Son has been continuously generated by and derived from God the Father from all eternity past:

    a) Time, being eternal in the past, is not created.
    How does it follow from the idea that the Sone is eternally generated that time is not created?
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

  8. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    351
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Re: A Few Protestant Quotes About Sacralism

    "bgamall. Can you provide any quotes from early Particular Baptists such as John Spilsbury, William Kiffin, and Hanserd Knollys, where they deny or refute "eternal generation". I would be interested to know the standpoint of these men because I have them in certain esteem as Baptist forebears."

    I don't have writings of the others. Richardson wrote a criticism of Dr Featley and his writing was not repudiated by the men you mention. They repudiated his position on eternal sleep, but not his defense against eternal generation. There are probably other sources besides Richardson among those early particular baptists but I don't have access at this time to those sources. Bill was supposed to provide those at some point for us.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst ... 2

Similar Threads

  1. Is the ECLA apostate?
    By churchmouse in forum General Discussion Archive
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-19-05, 08:15 AM
  2. Happy B-Day Ray
    By Mickey in forum General Discussion Archive
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-29-05, 06:15 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •