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Thread: Hints, Allegories, and Mysteries: The New Testament Quotes the Old

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    Hints, Allegories, and Mysteries: The New Testament Quotes the Old

    http://www.bible.org/docs/nt/topics/curtis_ntinold.htm
    please read the article and share your thoughts. i would specifically like to discuss the issue of the application of the author's premise to new covenant theology, covenant theology, and dispensationalism.
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    Re: Hints, Allegories, and Mysteries: The New Testament Quotes the Old

    The problem is that the Jewish method of interpreting Scripture was shown to be wrong in the New Testament. By following this method we have no explanation for why the Jews should not have expected an earthly kingdom at the first coming of Christ. By applying these rules as the the writer suggests, they would lead one to a dispensationalism in which certain spiritual elements are also recognized.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Hints, Allegories, and Mysteries: The New Testament Quotes the Old

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    The problem is that the Jewish method of interpreting Scripture was shown to be wrong in the New Testament. By following this method we have no explanation for why the Jews should not have expected an earthly kingdom at the first coming of Christ.
    that is a good point. but i don't think this article (nor the author he quoted) is saying that it was a pharisaical method of interpreting Scripture. all the examples given were from NT writings and apostolic interpretations (which were all Jewish except perhaps Luke's) and not from the erroneous methods of the first century jewish sects (e.g., pharisees, sadduccees, essenes, etc.). though i don't know that we can divorce them so neatly since they did not exist in a vacuum and probably all influenced one another and were also each probably influenced by many other philosophies from their greco-roman environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    By applying these rules as the the writer suggests, they would lead one to a dispensationalism in which certain spiritual elements are also recognized.
    which is obviously his presupposition going into the article (as far as i can tell). i'm not surprised that he came out the other end with that as a conclusion. though i found it very interesting and perhaps applicable to understanding the NT quotations of the OT (which at times seem very odd). so i found much value to his premise in this area.

    but when he started talking about the application of it to the kingdom and the continued use of this hermeneutic by the post-apostolic church, i begin to have serious doubts. this sort of sounds like a progressive dispensationalist stance to me and they see themselves as the mediating position between classic dispensationalism and covenant theology.

    another area that i thought had problems was his implicit assertion that all prophecy had to have both a literal (p’shat - "simple") and spiritual (remez -“hint”) fulfillment (not mentioning any such requirement that they also have a midrashic and sod interpretation). i can see options of having several or perhaps just one. he doesn't even entertain this as a possibility. he seems to say, "this is the way it is" as if it were an universally accepted, hard-and-fast rule.

    if jesus and NT writers chose to see only a remez interpretation for the kingdom in the NC, then i see no "rule" that would rule this out (other than his implicit assertion that this is the way it is for NT quotations for the OT...though he did not prove that every OT prophecy has both a p’shat and remez interpretation/application, therefore the conclusions of his premise may be very shakey if not completely faulty).

    anyway, i enjoyed the article and wondered what others thought. thanks for sharing your thoughts charles. i appreciate it!
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
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    A room without books is a body without soul.
    --Cicero

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    Re: Hints, Allegories, and Mysteries: The New Testament Quotes the Old

    Although, I disagree with many things Berkhof says in regards to theology, I think that his book, Principles of Biblical Interpretation, is the best on the subject. He does an excellent job tracing the history of Biblical interpretation (including Jewish) as well as showing the strengths and weaknesses of each method.
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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    Re: Hints, Allegories, and Mysteries: The New Testament Quotes the Old

    Quote Originally Posted by wildboar
    Although, I disagree with many things Berkhof says in regards to theology, I think that his book, Principles of Biblical Interpretation, is the best on the subject. He does an excellent job tracing the history of Biblical interpretation (including Jewish) as well as showing the strengths and weaknesses of each method.
    what does he conclude concerning the subject at hand? and what does he mean by jewish interpretation? does this include the methods used by the NT jewish writers?

    btw, thanks for the tip on the book. i'm adding it to my wish list at amazon.com
    When I get a little money, I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.
    --Erasmus

    A room without books is a body without soul.
    --Cicero

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    Re: Hints, Allegories, and Mysteries: The New Testament Quotes the Old

    WB states:

    Although, I disagree with many things Berkhof says in regards to theology, I think that his book, Principles of Biblical Interpretation, is the best on the subject. He does an excellent job tracing the history of Biblical interpretation (including Jewish) as well as showing the strengths and weaknesses of each method.

    How can you separate biblical interpretation from theology? I can't see or comprehend this. What do you think of Dr. George Ella's departure from BOTH Berkhof and Engelsma in his book 'Justification from Eternity'? Very significant indeed.

    Not that I believe Ella has it right--except for the 'salvation' side of everything considered TRANSCENDENT OF TIME (although he does not affirm this concept that I believe and confess), carried out IN TIME, and finalized in the judgment. The reprobation side of it all is an entirely separate issue. I have not read anyone who properly interprets scripture on that.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Hints, Allegories, and Mysteries: The New Testament Quotes the Old

    what does he conclude concerning the subject at hand? and what does he mean by jewish interpretation? does this include the methods used by the NT jewish writers?
    He basically takes the Grammatico-Historical position but gives a good explanation of how it should be applied. He does address methods used by NT writers but does not put them in the same categories as the author of the article does.

    How can you separate biblical interpretation from theology? I can't see or comprehend this.
    You can't, but Berkhof was inconsistent in applying the sound principles which he set forth. His errors did not spring so much from his interpretative method as much as his desire to defend popular views in the reformed churches.

    What do you think of Dr. George Ella's departure from BOTH Berkhof and Engelsma in his book 'Justification from Eternity'? Very significant indeed.

    Not that I believe Ella has it right--except for the 'salvation' side of everything considered TRANSCENDENT OF TIME (although he does not affirm this concept that I believe and confess), carried out IN TIME, and finalized in the judgment.
    In what way are you saying that Ella's position is different from Engelsma's?

    Sola Gratia,
    WildBoar
    For whatever strength of arm he may have who swims in the open sea, yet in time he is carried away and sunk, mastered by the greatness of its waves. Need then there is that we be in the ship, that is, that we be carried in the wood, that we may be able to cross this sea. Now this Wood in which our weakness is carried is the Cross of the Lord, by which we are signed, and delivered from the dangerous tempests of this world.--St. Augustine

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