Pristine Grace

View Poll Results: After 140 AD, do you believe that the hebrew leadership knew who the Messiah was?

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  • Yes

    3 33.33%
  • No

    4 44.44%
  • No one can say

    0 0%
  • I don't know

    2 22.22%
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Thread: Bill if I may interupt, I'd like a fair hearing . . .

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    Bill if I may interupt, I'd like a fair hearing . . .

    I've been following your debates, and I've posted here now because I feel that I can add to this discussion.

    I know that this study is lengthy, but I'd like a fair hearing of my conclusions. I visit here now because I feel that this group, believe it or not, is more honest, seeking, and heartfelt of any I've yet found. I tip my hat to all here.


    I recently spent much time studying four controversial verses from the Old Testament. Unable to find any who share my conclusions, I turn to you all for a fair hearing.

    How did the hebrew people know when the season of their Messiah’s coming would

    arrive? Did they know the time period?

    Much evidence suggests that they did, including messianic texts found among the dead sea scrolls, the candid opinions of the ex-pharisee Josephus, and dozens of verses from the pseudepigraphic 1 Enoch. Messianic expectations existed in the first century BC, and probably began to harden in the early years of the first century AD. Why?

    The two ingredients of this thinking were a thorough knowledge of hebrew history, which the learned among the people certainly possessed, and Daniel 9:24-27.

    For your review, these facts will be considered:

    606 BC Nebuchadnezzar invades Judea, taking the prophet Daniel and other

    royalty back to Babylon as captives

    597 BC Nebuchadnezzar again invades, this time taking 10,000 captives, in-

    cluding the prophet Ezekiel

    586 BC Third and final invasion by Nebuchadnezzar results in the destruction

    of both the city of Jerusalem and Soloman’s temple. Surviving hebrews

    are taken as captives to Babylon

    539 BC In Babylon, Daniel receives the vision of chapter 9

    Three mass migrations of hebrews back to Judea

    538 BC Cyrus’ Decree allowing exiles to both return to Judea and to rebuild

    the temple (Ezra chapters 1-6)



    537 BC Second temple’s foundation laid / work on the temple stops

    520 BC Work on the temple resumes in earnest

    515 BC Temple structure complete and dedicated

    458 BC Artaxerxes Decree again urging exiles to return to Judea. Also

    offers tribute to the God of Israel as well as the return of temple

    furnishings still held in Babylonia (Ezra chapters 7-10)

    444 BC Second Artaxerxes Decree orders the city walls of Jerusalem, which

    had been built but were not up to task, be fortified. At this time

    Nehemiah indicates that the city was complete but with few people.

    He returns with many more exiles.

    4 BC Birth of the Messiah

    33 AD Crucifiction of the Messiah

    66 AD First Jewish revolt against Rome begins

    70 AD Jerusalem laid siege and sacked by the Romans

    73 AD Revolt ends when escapees from Jerusalem are assaulted on Masada

    132 AD Second revolt against Rome begins when surviving pharisees declare

    Bar Kochba the Messiah

    135 AD Emperor Hadrian crushes the revolt, killing almost one million

    Judeans and literally plows Jerusalem under



    For my study of Daniel 9:24-27 I consulted many English versions, many of which appeared to contradict each other. Also, I obtained from the University of British Columbia a greek copy of the ‘minority text’ known as Codex Sinaiticus, which dates from the fourth century. I sent the greek text to a believer in Greece, Menas Tonislakis, whom I thank for providing this word for word literal translation in English:



    24 Seventy weeks have been judged on your people and on the city Sion for the ending

    of sin and to make iniquities very rare and eliminate iniquities and comprehend the

    vision and to make the holy of holies full of joy

    25 and know and comprehend and be happy and you will find commands to reply to

    and you will build Jerusalem city of the Lord

    26 and after seven and seventy and sixty two the anointing will become distant and it

    will not be found, and a kindship of nations will wear down the city and the holy

    place with the Christ, and his completion will come with wrath and up to the time

    of the completion, from war it will be fought by

    27 and the covenant will rule over many, and again will return and will be rebuilt in

    breadth and length; and during the end of times and after seven and seventy times

    and sixty two years until the time of the end of the war and the desolation will be

    removed in the domination of the covenant over many weeks; and in the end

    of the week the sacrifice and oblation will be abolished, and on the holy place

    abomination of desolations will be until the end, and a specific time and end will

    be given on the desolation



    Those who have studied these verses in our English versions will notice significant differences between them and the above. While the syntax is difficult, the simplicity and straightforwardness of this text resolves difficulties seen in our English texts.

    Here the prophecy can be seen to be composed of two separate but related prophecies.

    The first prophecy of verses 24 and 25, clearly messianic, involve the famed 490 years

    and predict to Daniel that the city of Jerusalem would indeed be rebuilt and that the Messiah would come, making an end of sin.

    Verse 26 gives a second prophecy, this one referring to a war involving the Christ which would last for “seven and seventy years” and “62 years” and results in damage to Jerusalem and “the anointing” being moved elsewhere.

    The phrase “seven and seventy years” shows Daniel’s use of an hebrew idiom. As I may say that you are 43 years old, the common idiom would be expressed that you are ‘three and forty years’ old. Simply put, the war would last for first 77 years and then an additional 62 years.

    Finally, verse 27 only provides more detail for the first two prophecies. The difficult syntax of it’s first sentence may be overcome by removing it’s interjections. The sentence, read in bold, is:

    27 and the covenant will rule over many, and again will return and will

    be rebuilt in breadth and length; and during the end of times and after

    seven and seventy times and sixty two years until the time of the end of the

    war and the desolation will be removed in the domination of the

    covenant
    over many weeks;

    Add the interjections for more detail. Here we see one covenant was to return after Daniel’s day, only to be replaced by yet a different covenant. The second sentence of verse 27 mentions that the sacrifices would be abolished at “the end of the week”. Here we have more detail for the first prophecy, that of ‘the seventy weeks’.



    Referring to the chronology above, please observe the following:

    1. From the time of Artaxerxes second decree in 458 BC to the Lord’s

    crucifiction in AD 33 we see 490 years or ‘seventy weeks’ (bear in mind that

    there is no year ‘0’)

    2. From the birth of Christ in 4 BC until the end of the first revolt in 73 AD

    at Masada we see 77 years.

    3. From the end of the first revolt to the end of the last revolt in 135 AD

    which found the obliteration of Jerusalem we see 62 years.



    A reliable messianic window could have been created by any hebrew having access to the Book of Daniel. The question would have been when to begin counting the weeks.

    Daniel’s prophecy that the city would be rebuilt would certainly have been a factor, but the earliest one could honestly start counting the seventy weeks would have been the point of the temple structure’s dedication in 515 BC. The latest point to begin the count would have been Artaxerxes second decree in 444 BC as Nehemiah indicates that by this time the city itself had been built (Nehemiah 7:4)

    Therefore, it would have been known that the Messiah would be revealed in the narrow window between 25 BC and 45 AD.



    So what did the leadership know, and when did they know it? Daniel also shows that an army of nations would damage Jerusalem after the Messiah’s revealing. Following the temple’s destruction by the Romans, I believe that this thought may have occurred to them. I also believe that their declaration of Bar Kochba as the Messiah, which very much strikes me as a test of this hypothesis, only confirmed what they already suspected. And while it’s difficult to level this accusation, I highly suspect that the Masoretic text of these verses has been purposely altered in order to obscure the truth of Yeshua’s first coming, his atonement, and the leadership’s knowledge of it, after the fact.

    I used to wonder what the hebrew leadership had been thinking after they had rejected Him.

    At least in part, I now know.

    Thank you in advance for you comments,

    Tim

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    Re: Bill if I may interupt, I'd like a fair hearing . . .

    Tim,

    Your view on the 'seventy sevens' has much to recommend it; I heard it preached from when I was 5 years old in the denomination I was raised in. I'm not here to challenge any of this; to me the general time-frames make perfect sense.

    It is well to keep in mind that this (Dan. 9:24) is a prophecy of Christ's first Advent. The fact that the general time-frame of his first Advent could be foreseen in no way implies that the time-frame of his final and consummate Advent can similarly be understood (for those who might want to go there).

    Thanks for your contribution and I will review your specific points in more detail.
    I got four things to live by: don't say nothin' that will hurt anybody; don't give advice--no one will take it anyway; don't complain; don't explain. Walter Scott

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    Re: Bill if I may interupt, I'd like a fair hearing . . .

    I'm disapointed that my post did not engender a more robust response.

    I can only conclude that the forum's preoccupation with the discussion of preterism has managed to exclude consideration of any post not concerned with that topic.

    Of course, my post has much to do with preterism, should any take the time to consider it.

    This is my statement regarding 'full preterism':

    Preterism is an outstanding doctrine which recognises both prophecy and the events of history.

    Many doctrines turn on a single verse of scripture. Universalism is one such doctrine. Does the lake of fire exist? If so, universalism implodes.

    In the same fashion, to those who have studied this problem, has the Gog
    war occurred at some point in the past?
    If not, hyperpreterism collapses.

    We can argue scripture with full preterists all night long, until you get to this point. Then, they will hesitate. No full preterist can successfully explain away a war after which it took 7 months to bury the dead east of the Jordan river, although I've seen them try.

    Thank you for your time,

    Tim

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    Re: Bill if I may interupt, I'd like a fair hearing . . .

    I think they knew about but not as a "friend".
    Rom 9:16 So then it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of God, the One showing mercy.


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