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James Gudgeon

They told Him about her

James 5:14; Mark 1:30-31
James Gudgeon April, 6 2025 Video & Audio
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James Gudgeon
James Gudgeon April, 6 2025
Miracles of Jesus

In his sermon "They Told Him About Her," James Gudgeon addresses the theological significance of healing and the role of the church in ministering to the sick, using James 5:14 and Mark 1:30-31 as foundational texts. He emphasizes the authority of Jesus over sickness, illustrating this through the healing of Simon Peter's mother-in-law and other scriptural accounts. Gudgeon draws upon the active role of elders in the church, who are called to pray and anoint the sick, highlighting the importance of community support and pastoral care in times of illness. The sermon reflects Reformed doctrines of God's sovereignty, providence, and the intercessory nature of Christ while also calling believers to gratitude and reliance on divine mercy in their struggles. The significance lies in understanding that while God uses means such as medicine, ultimate healing comes from Him, and believers are encouraged to seek spiritual support as they navigate sickness.

Key Quotes

“The prayer of faith shall save the sick and the Lord shall raise him up.”

“Jesus Christ is still at the right hand of the Father... interceding for his beloved people.”

“When we are unwell... it is God that has allowed it to take place, maybe for a specific reason.”

“Call for the elders of the church... to pray over that sick person.”

What does the Bible say about healing and prayer?

The Bible emphasizes calling the elders of the church to pray for the sick, highlighting God's authority to heal.

In James 5:14-15, we are instructed that if anyone is sick, they should call for the elders of the church, who will pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. This ritual underscores the church's role in supporting believers through prayer, invoking God's power to heal. The passage also reassures us that the prayer of faith can save the sick and result in forgiveness of sins, demonstrating the profound connection between physical and spiritual healing.

James 5:14-15, Mark 1:30-31

How do we know God heals today?

God continues to heal through prayer and faith, as He did in biblical times.

The healing ministry of Jesus demonstrates His power and compassion, which continues today as He intercedes for His people at the right hand of the Father (Hebrews 7:25). While miraculous healings by the apostles served as signs to validate their ministry, we also see God's providential healing through modern medicine. Believers are encouraged to approach God in prayer, trusting in His ability to heal physically and spiritually, as He operates through both divine intervention and means.

Hebrews 7:25, James 5:14-15

Why is calling for the elders important?

Calling for the elders involves the church's authority and communal prayer for healing.

In calling for the elders when one is sick, believers acknowledge the church's authority to pray and intercede on their behalf. This practice fosters community and support, combining faith with accountability. The elders are spiritually mature and can provide not only prayer but also comfort, scriptural counsel, and guidance during times of illness. This emphasizes that believers are not isolated in their struggles but are part of a collective body that cares for one another under Christ's lordship.

James 5:14-15, Mark 6:12-13

What roles do sickness and affliction play in a Christian's life?

Sickness can serve as a means for God to draw us closer and grow us in faith.

Sickness and affliction in a believer's life are not merely punitive but can serve a greater purpose in God’s sovereign plan. Often, they prompt reflection, humility, and reliance on God's grace. This time can encourage spiritual growth, allowing believers to develop a Christ-like character amidst suffering. The ultimate goal is for God to be glorified in our response to trials, as others may witness and be encouraged by our faithfulness during hardship. Thus, God uses sickness for spiritual and communal edification among His people.

Romans 8:28, 2 Corinthians 12:9-10

Sermon Transcript

Auto-generated transcript • May contain errors

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Seeking once again the help of
God, I'd like to draw your attention to the chapter that we read together,
James chapter 5, and the text you'll find in verse 14. Is any sick among you? Let him
call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing
him with oil in the name of the Lord. It goes on, and the prayer
of faith shall save the sick and the Lord shall raise him
up. And if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven
him. The next miracle of the Lord
Jesus Christ was done to Simon Peter's mother-in-law. Remember, the first miracle was
the water into wine. The next miracle was the healing
of the nobleman's son. The next miracle was the casting
out of the demon, the spirits that had indwelt. The next one
is another healing miracle where the Lord Jesus Christ heals Simon's
wife's mother as she lay sick of a fever. As I was considering
this text really it is what brought me to James. You see Simon Peter's
wife's mother lay sick of the fever and we know that the Lord
Jesus Christ would have known about it. We know that he knows
everything. There is nothing hid from him. And as he comes to Simon Peter's
house they tell him of her. It's like they bring the lady
to the attention of the Lord Jesus Christ in Mark chapter
1 from 30 to 31. But Simon's wife's mother lay
sick of a fever and on on or later they tell him of her and
he came and took her by the hand and lifted her up and immediately
the fever left her and she ministered unto them. And so again we see
the Lord Jesus Christ having complete authority over sickness. In one of the other Gospels we
read that he rebuked the fever. Fevers we know can be fatal.
especially if it's some form of parasite or some infection
that takes hold of the body and the body rages in a fever and
for someone to be laying in the bed with a fever, especially
in past days or in other parts of the world, these things can
be fatal. Think of when we were in Kenya,
I remember going to visit one of our friends who was probably
one of the strongest men I've ever seen. The cowman we used
to call him. But he got bit by a mosquito. And he left. He didn't have it
dealt with. And that parasite spread in his
body. And he was just laying there
on the hospital bed, covered in sweat, laying in almost like
a pool of sweat in a hospital mattress, sick with a fever. At death's door, a strong man,
smitten down. like Simon's wife, Simon's mother-in-law,
sick with a fever and her friends bring her to the attention of
the Lord Jesus Christ. and he goes to her, he takes
her by the hand and immediately the fever leaves her and she
ministers unto them. That shows that it is a complete
recovery in a moment. Anyone who's ever had the flu
and has experienced high temperatures will know that it takes it out
of you for some time. You cannot immediately go back
to normal. the Lord Jesus Christ when he
dealt with this lady, when he cured her of her sickness, immediately
the fever left and immediately she got up and immediately she
was able to go about her daily business in ministering to the
apostles and to the Lord Jesus Christ and so it shows us the
greatness of God the love and compassion of the Lord Jesus
Christ as he goes around as he ministers and as he preaches
and teaches in the various places and people bring others to the
attention of the Lord Jesus Christ and he listens to their requests And he acts upon their requests
and he deals with their requests. It's not much different really
today. The Lord Jesus Christ is still
at the right hand of the Father. The Lord Jesus Christ still possesses
that compassionate spirit, that caring spirit that he had when
he walked the earth. He still is at the right hand
of the Father interceding for his beloved people tried and
tempted in all points as we are yet without sin. He is able to
understand our weaknesses and our infirmities and still the
Lord's people bring to his memory or remind him or petition to
him for their loved ones who are sick their loved ones who
are still sick in sin and far out into the world. And the Lord
Jesus Christ is able to raise them up. He is able to raise
them up from the bed of sickness. He's able to raise them up from
the bed of sin and is able to fully restore them to complete
health. even to a new birth is able to
bring new life and cause them to walk on the narrow way that
leads to life. And so the Lord Jesus Christ
is the same. But it is a sad fact of life
that we live in a fallen world and that sickness is all around
us. was in the days of Jesus and
it has been in all of the Old Testament since Adam and Eve
have sinned against God. Death, evil and sickness as a
result of the fall. Sickness in body, sickness in
mind and sickness in spirit. And so often these three things
are so intertwined with each other. If you're sick in the
body you can be sick in the mind because it all affects and you
can be sick in the spirit. You can become so downcast and
so depressed because of the physical affliction that you are passing
through and so everything is so entwined within each other. Our bodies are so fearfully and
wonderfully made that when one part is unwell the whole body
suffers with it. But Jesus Christ showed that
he had power and authority over all. He had power over the sickness,
he had power over the evil and he had power over the mind. And he gave to his apostles specific
gifts to enable them to go forth into the world and to preach
the gospel as Christ had power and authority over sickness. So he gave to his apostles that
power and that authority. Mark chapter 6. He sends his disciples from verse 12, and they went
out and preached that men should repent and they cast out many
devils and anointed with oil many that were sick and they
were healed. And so as the apostles began
to take the news of the kingdom of God to the Jewish world They went with signs and wonders. They went with seals of authority
for their message. To be able to do miracles, to
be able to cast out demons and to be able to heal people with
the anointing of oil that they were sick. The miracles that they did. was
like a sign or a symbol of the approval of God upon the message. That people would witness, have
visual evidence being given to them of the word that was spoken. But as we go through the era
of the apostles and as the church begins to grow as it enters into
the gentile era, as the advancement of the kingdom goes into the
gentiles. They are also given those signs
and those miracles to prove the authenticity of the message that
is being given. We see with the moving of the
Holy Spirit in the book of Acts on the day of Pentecost and the
outpouring of the Spirit and they began to speak in other
tongues. And then we see as the gospel
moves on to the Samaritans, that there the spirit is seen working
in the same way. And as the spirit moves to the
Gentile world with Cornelius and his family, we see again
the evidences of the Holy Spirit and knitting together Gentile
and Jew under one church. being given the same spirit in
the same measure and the same gifts being seen and given. But as time goes on those specific
gifts that were given to the apostles begin to subside. They're not so evident as we
read in the letters to the churches. In one specific case the Apostle
Paul has someone come to visit him from the Philippians called
Aphrodite, a fellow soldier, a labourer and a messenger who
came to minister to the Apostle Paul. In Philippians chapter
2 in verse 26 he says, for he longed after you all and was
full of heaviness. because he had heard that he
had been sick. For indeed he was sick, nigh
unto death, but God had mercy upon him, and not on him only,
but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. I have sent him therefore the
more carefully, that when ye had seen him ye may rejoice,
that I may be the less sorrowful. And so the apostle has a friend
called Epaphroditus who is sick nearly to death. If the apostle
still had the gift of healing, if he was able to restore someone
who was sick to full health surely he would not have left it till
he was sick unto death. So it's believed that the anointing of God, the evidences
of the miracles began to wane as the church began to grow,
as the advancement of the kingdom, as many, many more were brought
to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. The signs
and the wonders were not so much needed because the evidence was
in. the multitudes that were being
converted. The multitudes that were once
in idol worship and pagan practices were now coming to the truth.
Multitudes were willing to lay down their life for the sake
of the Lord Jesus Christ. They were willing to suffer persecution
and martyrdom for the sake of the Lord Jesus Christ. And so
as the church advanced As the church grew the evidence was
seen in the many being brought to the Lord Jesus. And so these
apostolistic gifts were not so prevalent as they once were. As time went on God gave much wisdom or knowledge
to man. we look at since the time of
Christ. The way in which the world has
excelled at medicine and medical knowledge. The things that can
be done today, for instance, could never have been done even
a hundred years ago. Man has been given much knowledge
in the medical world and so many people are able to be healed
through those medical operations and medicines. But it's often without any knowledge
of God, without any recognition of God and without any prayer
to God. When I was in, when we were in
Kenya, I used to say, you know, the difference between you white
people and us Kenyans is that if we say we've got a headache,
the white man always goes for a paracetamol. Are we Kenyans,
we go to prayer. And it's true, isn't it? The first thing we go to, is
oh we'll get a paracetamol or we'll get a strepsil. But when
you don't have those things you have no other option than to
go to the Lord. And so the more we have the abundance
of our medical ability is that we forget God and we go to man. But it's God that has given the
wisdom to man to help men. God uses the means to help his people. In Luke chapter
17 we have the Lord Jesus Christ and he heals the lepers. 10 men that were lepers. And he
heals them. In verse 14 he says, Go and show
yourselves to the priests. And it came to pass when they
went they were cleansed. And one of them, when he was
healed, turned back and with a loud voice glorified God and
fell down on his face at his feet and gave him thanks. And he was a Samaritan. And Jesus
answered and said, Were there not ten cleansed? But where are
the nine? They are not found that return
to give glory to God save this stranger. And he said unto him
arise go thy way thy faith has made thee whole. So Jesus acknowledges
that this man did what was right. They were healed on the way.
Nine continued on without any recognition of God without any
recognition of the Lord Jesus Christ and this one turned back
and he was a Samaritan. and he fell down and worshipped
the Lord Jesus Christ and so even in our own lives the abundant
mercy of God in all that he has given to us it is right and proper
that we return thanks to God. He has, yes, maybe used men. Yes, he may have used paracetamol. Yes, he may have used lozenges. But it is him that has given
man the wisdom to do those things. And so we give him thanks. We
return thanks to God for the abundant mercy that he has bestowed
upon us in the medical world and the multitudes that are alive
today because God has used me. to extend their life and to help
them. If you go into these other countries
and you see pitiful sights of people who are unable to afford
medical care, begging on the streets, their limbs all bent
and twisted underneath them, offering a handout, asking for
funds. One just comes to my mind when
we used to queue up at the ferry. There used to be a man there
who used to come and he was burnt. He had no fingers. His face was
all burnt and he would come and he would ask for money. Couldn't work. There's no health
care or anything to help them out. What a mercy it is then
for us. who are able to be provided for
and dealt with for free in our own land. And we give God the
glory and God the thanks that he has given such wisdom and
ability to men. And God does use sickness in
the life of his people. He has a purpose in it. When
we are unwell it's not that God doesn't know about it, it's God
has allowed it to take place, maybe for a specific reason,
maybe we have entered into a sin, a particular sin that he wants
to almost grab our attention and we become unwell and we're
laid aside for a little while and caused to consider what it
is that we have done. Maybe it is some specific form
of discipline that he is bringing into our lives to slow us down
or to stop us, to make us think. Maybe we have become too self-confident,
too proud, and he wants to humble us, to show us our true nature,
to show us that it is him that is in control and not we, that
he is able to stop our plans and our lives in a moment. and
he does so by bringing in some sickness or something into our
life. But ultimately he works all things
for the good of his people. That when we do enter into a
period of sickness that the Lord has a purpose in it and he's
working it for our good. Sometimes we might not even see
the reason why but the Lord has a plan and he has a purpose. Sometimes it is ultimately that
he may glorify himself through our sickness. Sometimes believers
are laid aside, they suffer times of ill health so that others
may behold them and see how they deal with that sickness, how
they deal with that that time of suffering and distress that
they can glorify the Lord Jesus Christ. Sometimes it is that
person being used by God to minister to those who are even taking
care of themselves. There are many stories of people
who have been blessed by ministering to a sick believer, by the things
that they have said, by their attitude as the Lord has laid
them low for a little while. there are stories of believers
and maybe you even yourselves have experienced something yourself
that the Lord has made you unwell and you've been bed bound for
a little while and it's been a blessed time. You've been able
to just stop. You've been able to think. You've
been able to pray. And there are times when the
Lord has blessed you with words of comfort. He has blessed you
with his presence. And you've been able to rest
in his sovereign hand, in his sovereign will in your lives. And surely that is a good testimony,
even to yourself. that the Lord has dealt with
you in love and he has worked it for your good and for your
sanctification. Often we hear of men praying
that these things may be sanctified, that the Lord would use the affliction
for the benefit of his person, his people. they may be sanctified,
that they may grow in grace, that they may come out of that
sickness with a more holy disposition, a more Christ-like attitude and
character. When the Lord deals with us he
deals with us for a purpose and that ultimate purpose is for
our good, for his glory and that we may magnify him As John says,
he must increase and I must decrease. And often the Lord does these
things so that we get things the right way round. Here it says in our text, if
any be sick among you, there is always sickness going around
and as the church in those days was quite big multitudes maybe
would have been unwell. He says if any is sick among
you let him call for the elders of the church. As we read through
the Book of Acts and the New Testament we see that there is
that church order that has been established by God. We saw recently
as we looked at that pastor or the bishop and deacons. And there
are various words that are used to label these men. Pastors,
it is referring to a shepherd. They shepherd the flock of God. They can be bishops. They are
the overseers of the church. They oversee the the body of Christ. Elders, not necessarily old men
but those who are spiritually mature in the faith. Remember
that Timothy the scripture says, don't let any man despise thy
youth but be thou an example And so could have been that Timothy
was a young man and that the older men may have looked down
upon him yet he was still an elder of the church. He was spiritually
experienced in the things of God and he was left to oversee
the church there at Ephesus. So bishops, pastors, elders as
they take care of the people of God. But it says that the
elder should be sent for. If any is sick, the elder should
be sent for. As the Lord Jesus Christ was
sent for, he was made aware of the situation. was something
which we could say with quite humanly speaking he was not aware
of and yet the friends of the mother-in-law made the
Lord Jesus Christ aware of the situation. As churches grow They're obviously
things that pastors don't know or the elders don't know. They
cannot enter into every individual person's life. They are only
human. They cannot probe too much. Some people are private. Some
people don't like to be questioned. And so there are things that
have to be brought to the attention of the pastor. read books from years ago you
find that this was quite common. The people of the village even
if they didn't go to church they would send for the pastor of
a church and he would go and he would minister or pray with
and read the scriptures to somebody who was sick. It's a habit that
has fallen away as people reject the existence of God and the
church has less influence in society and therefore that is
rejected. There are things that the pastor
has to be made aware of. Someone is sick. Someone is not
able to get out of bed. They are laid aside and they're
to call for the elders of the church to come. and to pray over
that sick person. What are they to pray for? Sometimes
when we are unwell we can get into a bad mindset. We can become angry with God.
We can fight against his will. I need to be doing this and I
need to be doing that. I should not be ill. and you
become angry and frustrated with the sovereign hand of God on
our lives and we become and we have a rebellious spirit. Oh
I need to be doing this, I need to be doing that. Why has God
done this? And begin to question and reason.
And so the elder of the church comes and he's to pray for that
submissive spirit. He's to pray for humility. He's
to pray for help. He's to pray for submission. He's to pray for patience. He's to pray for that sanctifying
grace to rest upon that person. We would add that he's to read
the scriptures. to them, offer words of comfort and counsel
through the word of God. But he has to be made aware of what's going on so that he
can act and respond to those requests just like the Lord Jesus
Christ. Is any sick among you, let him
call before the elders of the church. and let them pray over
him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. This is one of these texts in
the Bible that has brought a lot of debate, a lot of confusion,
and even today, divided opinions. The Lord Jesus Christ as he sent
out those apostles in the early days he went out and they anointed
people with that oil and they were healed. There are people
today who still continue this practice of going to the sick
with olive oil and anointing them and praying over them and
seeking God's favour and blessing upon them. In the time of the Lord Jesus
Christ, oil was used as a medicine. remember the good Samaritan when
he came and he found the man there laid by the wayside having
been beaten and robbed of all of his things he laid upon him
he poured in oil and wine he bound up his wounds he sought
to minister to him and to provide him with medical assistance and
he did so with oil. And so it could be that the elders
were to bring this oil as a medicine to administer some comfort to
that one who was sick. Some have thought it could have
been figurative. Sometimes we speak words of comfort
as a soothing oil. We offer words to soothe and
to help a figurative language. Others have thought it is to
help, encourage, to help their faith. As they're laying there
in the bed, unable to do anything, can the elders come and pray
and then anoint him with oil. It is like a reminder. that something
has been done. That oil there remains even after
the pastor or elder has gone, that the oil remains. And so
their faith can be kindled as they feel that oil and are reminded
of that oil. They're reminded that God has
been petitioned on their behalf, that their elder has been and
sought the blessing and favour of God. like we would do today, maybe
a visual gift. We bring maybe a card and we
write some text upon it. It is a reminder that we have
been. And when the person is feeling OK, they can look again
at those cards and read the texts and be encouraged that my friends
have been, the pastor has been, and I've been prayed for and
helped. it's to be noted that it's not
the oil that saves. It was not the oil that healed. The oil was just a mere symbol of what had been done
because it says and the prayer of faith shall save the sick. and the Lord shall raise him
up and if he hath committed sins they shall be forgiven him. In reading about this it seems
that this person or a person laid aside because of a particular
sin. They were to confess that sin
to the elder and that they are to repent of that sin. And the Lord would forgive them
of that sin. If you confess your faults one
to another, pray for one another that you may be healed. The effectual
fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. And so the oil was like an act
of faith that we have prayed and the person can be encouraged. You know sometimes we pray and
we forget all about what we have prayed for. Sometimes we have
pressing needs we don't really want to pray for them because
we're worried that the Lord may not answer them and so we're
not really praying in faith we're praying with a doubtful mind
we're praying and we don't really believe that God is able to save
or able to heal If you were to go to somebody and you were to
pray and to leave a token that you have been there and a token
that this is what you have prayed for, that is an act of faith,
that you are willing to lay it down, you are willing to declare
that God is able to heal God is able to to restore and I'm
not ashamed and I'm not afraid to pray for such. Reminded last night when Jesse
and Daisy had malaria when we came back to England the first
time I think Jesse was 10 or something and they were there
in the hospital in Brighton And it didn't look good. Jessie especially
was deteriorating fast. They came out of, then they seemed
to perk up, they came out of hospital, then they went back
in again. And a prayer meeting was called. And at that prayer meeting many
different people were there praying specifically for their healing.
And one man in particular, I can hear him now, he said, he quoted,
thy prayer is heard. Thy prayer is heard." The next day, Elsie went to visit
them. When she had left that hospital
the day before, she came home crying, thinking that that was
it. When she went there the next
day, they were playing over the beds, hiding under the beds. The Lord
worked. as a result of prayer. Maybe
we should have called for the elders of the church to go there
and to pray over them and to anoint them with oil but I hadn't
come to that persuasion yet. But it was a blessed time, it
was a blessed meeting that we had together and we were able
to come together afterwards and to give thanks for what the Lord
had done. He restored them to their health. There's another side to this. Is any sick among you? Sick with
sin. Where do we go when we are sick
with sin or sick of sin or sick of self? Call for the elders
of the church or do we call for the Bishop of our souls, the
Lord Jesus Christ? You see, the elders of the church
may be able to lead you in prayer, may be able to guide you with
counsel, but they cannot save. There is no elder of the church
who is able to save anybody. It is only the Lord Jesus Christ.
And the scripture tells us that he is the shepherd and bishop
of our souls. Is any afflicted then with sin,
then come to the Lord Jesus Christ, the bishop of your soul, and
he is able He is able to raise you up. He is able to bring you
out of that ditch of sin, that bed of languish. He is able to
raise you up and to restore you and to bring you to full health. Just like he takes hold of Peter's
mother-in-law, the fever left her. Well the sin and the consequences
of sin will leave you and Christ will deal with them. you will
take you by the hand and you will minister to him you will
serve him and so the bishop of your soul is the Lord Jesus Christ
he's able to heal the brokenhearted he is able to cleanse us from
all sin and he won't anoint you with oil but he will give you
the oil of gladness he will give you the oil of his holy spirit
which will dwell in you and your sins shall be forgiven. May the Lord grant us then those
eyes that understand our sickness and that those eyes, that voice
that cries out to the Lord Jesus Christ have mercy upon me and
for those who are believers as we're laid low for a time in
our lives let us not be discouraged, let us be encouraged that the
Lord has laid us aside for a little while for our good and for the
good of others and ultimately for his glory. And when we are
deeply down, then call for others. Call for the elder of the church.
Call for your brethren to come and be round about you and to
pray over you. If any is merry, let him sing
psalms. If any afflicted, let him pray. Is any sick, let him call for
the elders of the church and let them pray over him, anointing
him with oil in the name of the Lord. Amen. This afternoon's service is at
three o'clock. If you are visiting, you're more
than welcome to stay for lunch. Our closing hymn is hymn number
556. The Lord proclaims his name,
and sinners hear his voice. His mercy ever stands the same,
and we'll in him rejoice. Hymn number 556 to the tune number
66. ? And still not hear his voice
? ? His mercy ever stands the same ? ? And we'll in him rejoice
? ? His aim is gracious still ? and day of reckoning. Let's sing a praise to God and
join a big festivity. And wherewot Jesus bled. Who will watch over thee, and
make thee whole? Heavenly Father, we thank Thee
for the Word of God. We thank Thee for the power and
authority of Thy Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. We thank Thee for
the gift of Thy Holy Spirit and we pray that our faith may be
increased. Lord, that Thou bless us with
that simple faith to rest and trust upon Thee, our God. Help
us, Lord, as we pass through the different circumstances of
life to realise thy gracious hand is still upon us and encouraging
us in the way. We pray, Lord, for those that
may be downcast and despondent because of the difficulties of
their pathway. We pray, Lord, that they may
look up unto thee and be refreshed and strengthened. Do dismiss
us, we pray, with thy blessing. And now may the grace of the
Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God the Father with the fellowship
and communion of the Holy Spirit, to be with us each now and for
evermore. Amen.
James Gudgeon
About James Gudgeon
Mr James Gudgeon is the pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Chapel Hastings. Before, he was a missionary in Kenya for 8 years with his wife Elsie and their children.

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