2, the first 14 verses. When we began with our look at
the book of Daniel, 13 weeks ago, I think it must be, because
there are 12 chapters in Daniel, 13 weeks ago, I had not planned
in the slightest that we would arrive at this point on this
day, but here we are, as so often happens. We finished the look
at Daniel last week in Daniel chapter 12, and this week I want
to look, because it's Christmas this coming Friday, I want to
look at these wise men, the account of the wise men, because I believe
that they're linked, very closely linked. The prophets, the Old
Testament scriptures, had spoken again and again with such clarity
that God would become man. And why would God become man?
To establish righteousness and justice for the people of God. Who are the people of God? The
people the Father gave to the Son from before the beginning
of time. God is sovereign. In all history,
over all history, He orders all things for His purposes, to accomplish
His purposes. And we'd seen in Daniel chapter
9, when the particular vision that Daniel had of the coming
of Christ, in Daniel chapter 9 verses 24 and 25, the account
about the 70 weeks. 70 weeks are determined. And
it goes on to say, when is that measured from? from the giving
of the command to go and rebuild the walls of Jerusalem." That
was 457 BC, 457 years before Christ. That command was given.
Add on 33 years to 457. How's your maths? 490 years.
490? Seven. Seventy-sevens. Seventy-sevens. 490. Seventy
weeks of years. Seventy-sevens of years. In 33 AD, Christ died on the cross. To do what?
Why did he come? It says there in that prophecy
to make reconciliation for iniquity and to bring in everlasting righteousness. From the going forth of the command
in 457 BC, 490 years later, Messiah the Prince shall come to make
reconciliation for iniquity and bring in everlasting righteousness. And in AD 33, Jesus Christ, the
Son of God, the Messiah, Messiah the Prince, died on the cross
of Calvary and rose again for the justification of His people. He was delivered up for our transgressions
and raised for our justification. The Word of God is glorious,
isn't it? Does it make the hairs on the
back of your neck tingle when you think of these things? That
He said these things and it happened exactly as He said. You know,
there's such a need for salvation. The Bible is all about God's
holiness. God's holiness. He is of purer eyes than to behold
iniquity. It's all about the justice of
God. That He's just. He cannot overlook
sin. He cannot sweep it under the
carpet. He must punish sin. The soul that sins, it shall
die. Says Ezekiel over and over again.
And we look at our state. And we see that there is none
righteous, no not one. There are no saints in the way
that the Roman Catholic Church puts people on pedestals. There
are none in that way. There are none who are made saints
because they're good people. There is none righteous, no not
one. We have a hopeless situation. For how can a man be just with
God, when the God of the universe is so perfectly, purely, holy,
and just, and cannot overlook sin and yet we are without any
righteousness at all but this book also says but God but God
again and again but God but God in Christ who is qualified he
has the qualifications because he's the infinite God and yet
he's clothed in flesh as a man to come and stand in the place
of his people he is qualified to save his people from their
sins so the angel said to Joseph you shall call his name Jesus,
Savior. Joshua is His name. Jesus, for
He shall save His people from their sins. What a glorious hope. I know I'm mortal. I know that
I have a soul that will never die as the old catechism says.
I know that. I know it's appointed to man
to die once and then the judgment. I know I must face this judge
who is of purer eyes than to behold iniquity. I know I must
stand before Him with all laid bare And there is this dreadful,
dreadful situation. For on my back, as in Bunyan's
Pilgrim's Progress, there is a burden. There is a burden that
he couldn't get off his back. That he was mortal. He would
die. He would go into the presence of the living God with the burden
of his sins. And he would bear them and he would be responsible
for them. And at the bar of the justice of the living God, he
would be pronounced guilty. And he would receive his condemnation.
And the thought of it filled him with dread and horror. He
could get no peace. And people all around him said,
you're mad. just eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die,
just enjoy life as it is, but he couldn't get away from the
fact that there was a burden of sin on his back. Oh, what
a blessing it is. Oh, the grace whose fears alarmed
me, the grace whose fears alarmed me, the grace of God to give
me that gift of repentance, that gift of seeing the state that
I'm in, that gift of pointing me to the one in whom alone there
is hope, the Lord Jesus Christ the promised one who would come
because in him I can be just in him I who am a sinner and
guilty before God can be declared righteous I who have no holiness
or righteousness of my own can have all the holiness that I
need to see God without which I will not see God I have it
all pursue holiness says the writer to the Hebrews without
which no man shall see God there's only one place to find it and
that is in Him. Where would we be knowing these
things but for the fact that there is a Savior? God has come
into this world as a Savior. In Old Testament days they look
forward. All the types and shadows look forward. They all look forward
with hope. When they killed those lambs
it was not with some sort of gory brutality but it was in
hope. It was in hope. When Abel killed
that first lamb when he took that lamb, that innocent offering
and he slit its throat and poured its blood out when he in in that
moment when he did that he was looking forward to this one who
would come who would bear his sins who would establish justice
on his behalf because he knew his parents had sinned he knew
that in them and what they had done he was a sinner and guilty
and he knew that in this substitute was the hope for his soul for
his eternal soul and here today we look back 900. That's the
year. So approximately, give or take
a year or two, we're not absolutely sure. We look back 2,900 years
and there were people who were waiting. There were people who
were looking. There were people who were anticipating.
And so we read of Simeon and Anna in Luke chapter 2. You read
of them at the temple. They were waiting there. No doubt
there were many more. In a minority, but nevertheless,
there were many of them. God had his people. God had his
7,000. God had his perfect completeness of people. in all times as he
does in all times he had them there waiting and they were looking
and they were reading this book they were reading these Old Testament
scriptures they were reading those promises of the one who
would come and establish righteousness and make reconciliation for iniquity
for their iniquity and they were thinking it's anytime now it
must be any day now look what Daniel wrote Look what Daniel
wrote then. Now work it out. When was that?
We know the history. They kept historical records.
They knew what years were. They kept those records and they
must have been thinking, it's any day now. It must be any time
now. He's going to be born. And so
they were waiting at the temple. The shepherds, I don't know whether
they were waiting. I don't know what they knew. I firmly believe
that God had his preachers. But what does he say in Romans
10? He says, whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be
saved but how shall they call people were saved in the Old
Testament how shall they call on him of whom they have not
heard and how shall they hear without a preacher the Word of
God was expounded and preached and proclaimed and explained
and whether they had known that something was going to happen
I do not know but there they were the shepherds on the hillside
perhaps totally unsuspecting and to them There was a mighty
angelic fanfare the night that Christ was born. But what about
those who should have known? What about those who had all
the privileges? What about those who had all the religious advantages? Where would you go if you were
those men coming from the east to Jerusalem? Where would you
go if you wanted to know about spiritual things? You'd go to
the leaders. You'd go to the scribes. You'd
go to the Pharisees. You'd go to the teachers of the law. You'd
go to the temple. You'd go to those who were in
charge. And you'd find from those who had all the advantages spiritually,
because what advantage is there in being a Jew? Paul asked this
question. Romans 3, verses 1 and 2. What
advantage is there in being a Jew? And he says, much in every way.
For to them was delivered the oracles of God. They had the
Word of God. They had the Spirit of God to
explain it. They had the types, the shadows, all of those things
were there before. What advantage? They had all
the advantages. And yet these scribes, and Pharisees
and chief priests, they knew. So Herod said to them, Herod
called them, he said, when is the Christ going to be born?
Where is the Christ going to be born? And they didn't even
need to look it up. In Bethlehem, Ephrathah, Bethlehem of Judah.
They quote it straight away. No hesitation. Thou Bethlehem
in the land of Judah art not least among the princes of Judah
for out of thee shall come a governor that shall rule my people Israel.
The knowledge was up there. in their heads. Their knowledge
was there in their heads, but there was no heart need, no heart
interest in the coming of this one. They knew in their minds
from their positions of privilege, but there was no heart interest
whatsoever in the coming of this Messiah. They didn't need a Messiah. They didn't need to be saved. Why would they need to be saved?
They had the oracles of God. They had all of these things
and they'd all just become idols, objects of idolatrous worship
to them. No, they weren't. They weren't
looking. They weren't ready. Some were. Some were. But these
particular people, the scribes, the Pharisees, the chief priests,
they weren't looking. But in Matthew 2, verses 1 to
12, we find the most unlikely group of people who were interested
in the coming of the Messiah, of the Christ. They're not those
that you would expect. These people, we hear of them
from our very first nativity plays at school. You know, the
way it's portrayed, you play the parts of the shepherds and
Mary and Joseph and all of those things and of course there's
wise men and they're all on the stage and it's all the traditional
thing. And we have this view that these
were highly respected men, these kings from the East. Do you know,
Magi, the Magi, is not a particularly flattering word in the things
of God, in the Word of God. Do you know what it means? It
means pagan astrologers, pagan sorcerers, pagan, you know, those
who are into, it's the way that we would regard Mystic Megan
and the like, and the people who write the stars in the daily
newspaper, the astrologers. It's the way we would, that's
how they're presented, these people, full of superstition.
with superstitious beliefs, without the light of the knowledge of
the Word of God. That's the way it's portrayed.
But you know what 1 Corinthians says? Paul says in 1 Corinthians,
where is it? Let's just turn over there. You see, he's talking about who
would you expect? Who would you expect? You know,
we all have our views, don't we, about who is worthy of salvation,
when none is worthy of salvation. And look in 1 Corinthians chapter
1. and verse 26 verse 26 for you see your calling brethren
you see your calling you've been called brethren if your brethren
you've been called you see your calling brethren how that not
many wise men after the flesh you know it's not by your brain
power it's not that you're professor of this that and the other no
not many wise men after the flesh Not many mighty, it's not because
you're stronger and tougher than anybody else. Not many noble,
it's not just for the highest ranks of society. Not many of
them are called, I've told you many times that apparently Queen
Victoria said she was so grateful for the letter M, because it
doesn't say not any mighty, not any noble, it says not many.
She thought that maybe she would have an interest as one of the,
not many, but she was amongst them. But God hath chosen the
foolish things of the world to confound the wise. The things
that the world regards as foolish. And God hath chosen the weak
things of the world, not the mighty, to confound the things
which are mighty. And the base things of the world,
and the things which are despised, hath God chosen. Yea, the things
which are not, to bring to naught things that are, that no flesh
should glory in his presence. But of him you are in Christ
Jesus. who is made of God unto us wisdom and righteousness and
sanctification and redemption. God doesn't choose who we might
think. God doesn't choose the religious
leaders there in Jerusalem. No. He chooses the simple. A
bunch of shepherds on a hillside. An old man just about to die,
just waiting to see this. An old woman, ninety-odd years
old. This is who he chooses to reveal
that light to. and a bunch of pagan astrologers.
They're pretty rich and they've come a long way, but he chooses
them. This is what God does. The God
of the universe. He's sovereign over all these
things and we look around today, we look around the religious
world today, the evangelical Christian religious world today,
and you just look at the high and mighty. They're in exactly
the same court as these scribes and Pharisees and chief priests.
They think they've got it stitched up. They think they've got it
stitched up with their organized religion. You know, how can you
possibly be right with God unless you are under the rule and the
domination of this bunch of elders and these people in these established
places? And I tell you, you look for
heart religion and see if you can find any of it there. You'd
look for it. We've been in places where, quite
honestly, there they've been submitting to the religious rules
and regulations of the day and yet there was no heart knowledge
of Christ amongst one of them. Absolutely. Just maybe the odd
one. The odd one. Simple. Simple.
No heirs and graces. No high and mighty. No testimony
that would make that person, you know, we'd all bow down and
say what a wonderful person they are. No. God chooses the weak
things of this world to confound the wise. And so he did with
these. So he did with these. You see,
that's where the true knowledge of God was, where God had shined
his light, where religious folks least expect it. And here, these
wise men, these magi, these wise men, look what they had done.
They had invested. You know, the scribes and the
Pharisees, they knew it in their minds, but they couldn't care
less. Not one of them went to look for him. even though the
scriptures said he was coming, not one of them had any heart
interest, but these wise men, these magi, had invested everything
they had in their interest in the Messiah. Everything that
they had, because to them, what was the point of anything outside
of Him? They must find Him. They must
have Him. These ignorant, non-Jewish, pagan,
sorcerers and magicians from an eastern country knew something
about this one who was coming, and they invested everything
that they had in their interest in this Messiah. We can only
speculate about them. We know so little about them.
We know only what's written here about them. We don't even know
that they were three, really. We only infer that from the fact
that they brought gifts, gold, frankincense, and myrrh, so the
rumors got about that there were three of them. We don't know
for sure that there were three. Were they kings? Well, you might
speculate that because Isaiah 60 says that kings shall come
to the brightness of thy rising. Kings. So maybe they were some
political rulers from this eastern country. So we can only speculate. We can only speculate. But isn't
it interesting? Now I just want to note this. Don Faulkner notes
this. And I think this is interesting. If a human writer was writing
about the life of Jesus of Nazareth, you know, you've read biographies.
wouldn't they wax lyrical about his birth and his childhood?
Wouldn't they have an awful lot to say? There'd be chapters and
chapters about it, wouldn't there? You know, and some have invented
all sorts of fairy stories about, you know, making birds out of
clay in the back garden and all sorts of things. I was taught
that as a child, that the little boy Jesus made, you know, would
roll up clay into balls and made birds out of them and do all
sorts of magic tricks, etc. All complete fabrication. There's no evidence for any of
that. The Word of God doesn't say a word about it. Which is
why it lends weight to the fact that this is the Word of God.
If this was the Word of Man, it would be embroidered with
all sorts of stuff, but there's so little. All we're told is
that Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea. All we're told is about
the announcement of his coming. We're told virtually nothing
about his childhood apart from one incident when he was 12 years
old. That's all that we're told. And it's all for specific purposes,
to reveal the will and word of God. How much more would there
have been? But it's interesting to note
that of the very little that is there, the shepherds and Simeon
and Anna, these wise men, there's 12 verses of the Scriptures devoted
to what they did and that they came. They came from the East. Now, allow me a little bit of
speculation. But I think, remember what we
looked at in the book of Daniel. They came from the East. Maybe
they came from where Babylon had been. Maybe they came from
where Shushan had been. The palace, you know, the Persian
Empire, the head of it. There would have been libraries
there. This was a fine culture. This was a civilization. There
was not just military might, but there was great intellectual
might. These were clever people. These people knew a thing or
two. They didn't have the technology we have today, but they knew
a thing or two. This was a mature civilization, and they
would have had libraries, and there would have been copies,
I believe, of the Scriptures. Why? Because of that 70-year
exile from Jerusalem, when they were carried away by Nebuchadnezzar
to Babylon for 70 years, there wasn't just Daniel, who was ministering.
There were several other of the prophets who were ministering
in that time. And copies of their writings would have been in the
libraries. And maybe these men studied those scriptures with
particular light from the Holy Spirit. I like to think that
perhaps God even arranged for a preacher to be sent to them.
Because you know when the Ethiopian was in his chariot coming back
from Jerusalem in Acts chapter whenever it is, seven or eight
thereabouts, And he's reading the scroll of the book of Isaiah,
chapter 53 as we know it. And Philip, miraculously, comes
alongside him because God arranged for a preacher. And Philip said,
do you understand what you're reading? How can I unless a man
explain it to me? So Philip goes up into the chariot
and preaches to him, Jesus, that he is the Christ. And I believe
that even then, in God's sovereign way, He'd sent a preacher to
these men, and those scriptures had been expounded, and those
scriptures had been explained, and so they called upon one of
whom they had heard. For how shall they call upon
one of whom they have not heard? These wise men called upon one
of whom they had heard, and how had they heard? I believe there'd
probably been a preacher sent by who'd expounded the Word of
God. And they knew that one was coming
who was the answer to that question. How can a man be just with God?
And they wanted to know Him. And they wanted to be found in
Him. And they wanted to have an interest in His coming into
the world. And everything that He was going
to do. And they wanted to acknowledge it. And I don't know whether
they knew that they wanted to fulfill that scripture that we
read. in Isaiah chapter 60. Arise, shine, for thy light is
come. The people that walked in darkness
have seen a great light. And Gentiles shall come to thy
light. And kings, kings, maybe they
wanted to come and be there. The Scriptures say, let's go.
Let's fulfill these things. Let's go there. They knew from
what they'd studied that the fullness of the time had come.
This is what Paul says in Galatians 4. This is another verse. To have readily in your mind
when the fullness of the time was come. It was time. The 77's or the 69 7's as it
was at this particular time. They'd come. That time had come. The 69 7's actually probably
refers to the start of the rising up of John the Baptist to proclaim
the coming of Christ. That's probably what that refers
to. But they knew it was about now. The fullness of the time
had come. God sent forth his son made of
a woman made under the law to redeem them that were under the
law that we might receive the adoption of sons he became the
son of a woman that he might be a man that we his people in
him might become the sons of God by adoption into the family
of God they knew now was about the time and while in the east
while in the east we have seen his star in the east they said
they came to Jerusalem Matthew 2 verse 1 when he was born and
again it's not when he was born on the day he was born it's when
he had been born when Jesus had been born in Bethlehem of Judea
in the days of Herod the king it was sometime later I believe
very clearly that it was probably when Jesus was no longer a little
tiny baby but was a toddler 18 months to two years old something
like that The reason? Because when Herod inquired of
these wise men, when they'd seen the star announcing his birth,
they must have told him about two years ago. Why? Because Herod
gave the command for all the male children under two years
old to be slain. And that's when we've got that
weeping, Rachel weeping for her children. And they were not.
You read on in Matthew chapter 2 and you read about it. I believe
then that they had gone to Bethlehem They had stayed in Bethlehem
after the birth of Jesus. There was no room at the inn,
but clearly when they came, they were no longer at the inn. They
came into the house, it says, verse 11. They came into the
house and saw Mary, his mother, and the little toddler, Jesus.
So, yes, all right, have the vision in your mind of the nativity
play. It's okay, we're not going to make a big fuss about it,
but it was probably not at the same time as the shepherds came
in to see the baby newly born. It was probably a year to two
years later. But, there they were, the fullness
of the time had come and they said while they were in the East,
they had seen his star. No doubt they were expecting,
no doubt they'd had the message preached, they'd seen his star.
Do you know what Numbers 24 says? Numbers 24 verse 18, there's
a preacher preaching. He's a false preacher but nevertheless
he can't help but preach the Word of God. His name is Balaam,
a false preacher and he's He's instructed by Balak to curse
the people of God. And he can't because he stands
up to give his oracle as the mouthpiece of God and God makes
him. God even makes an ass speak words
of a man because he cannot curse this people. It's impossible
for a man or a devil to curse the people of God. He cannot
do it. And so he stands up and he gives a number, I think it's
four if I remember rightly, four different Oracles that are there
in numbers and he says a star shall come out of Jacob Speaking
of Christ the Messiah the Savior and Revelation 22 and verse 16
just before the end of the Bible Jesus is described as the bright
and morning star We have seen his star when we were in the
east while we were in the east We've seen his star and we have
come to worship him. Why had they come to it so far?
Why had they come on such an arduous journey? We have come
to worship Him that is born King of the Jews. We've seen His star
while we were in the East and we've come to worship Him. What
is it to be born King of the Jews? It's to be born to become
a man as the Savior King of the people of God. The Savior King
of the people that the Father gave to the Son from before the
beginning of time. That's why they've come. and
they'd come to worship Him. Why had they come to worship
Him? God will not have anybody worshipped other than Himself.
This is God in human flesh. God incarnate. They came to worship
God, who'd become a baby. They came to worship the One
who would come, who must be God, coming in human flesh. Surely
when the God of the universe comes, something will mark it
out. I don't know what this star was. I don't know what it appeared
like. I don't know whether it was a
comet or what it was, but somehow God miraculously hung a light
in the sky that spoke to these men. It is His star. It is the
sign. It even led them to a specific
house in Bethlehem. How it did, I do not know. It
doesn't matter. The Word of God says He did,
and it led them there. They came. You see, they'd studied
the Scriptures. Why were they called wise men?
Was it because they knew wise things? Was it because they knew
all sorts of things that other men don't know? They were wise
unto salvation. 1 Timothy. No, 2 Timothy 3 verse 15. Talking to Timothy about his
grandmother and his mother teaching in the Scriptures which are able
to make you wise unto salvation. Why were they wise men? Because
they were wise unto salvation. Because in the Scriptures they'd
learned of the one who was able to save and who would save his
people from their sins and their eternal hope was in this baby
or this toddler who was God their eternal hope was in him he came
to see this little one this God in human flesh they'd seen his
star and they'd come to bow and worship before the one who was
God incarnate because they knew that their eternal hope was in
Him, in what He would do. You know, Hollywood has made
all sorts of films about, you know, people born for a specific
purpose and some kind of eternal, you know, this child coming into
the world because he's going to save mankind. You know, it's
all an illusion. It's all a completely false fable
of an illusion. of an allusion, sorry, to this,
to the coming of Christ into the world. He is the one who
came and their hope was in Him for He would save His people
from their sins. Oh, surely that counts them out
because they weren't His people, were they? It was the Jews who
were His people. Weren't they being rather presumptuous
coming all that way, these Gentiles? No, I think they'd read Isaiah
chapter 60 and verse 3 I'm sure that was one of the other books
that had been there in the library in wherever it was in the east
and I'm sure their preacher had come and said and explained to
them and shown them that the Gentiles shall come to thy light
and kings to the brightness of thy rising and bringing gold
with them bringing those gifts that they brought with them look
even in verse six they shall bring gold and incense, frankincense,
and they shall show forth the praises of the Lord." These dromedaries
coming on camels from the East because of what they'd seen in
the Scriptures. Their hope was in Him. They were
those Gentiles who would come to the light of God because the
Gentiles are amongst the people of God. You can't read the book
of Isaiah and conclude that the people of God is anything other
than people from every tribe and nation and kindred on earth.
And so they had working faith, because true faith works. And
they were given working faith. And they came with gifts. And
they came with gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh. And
here's a very practical thing. You know, we give to the work
of God. We're happy to devote our substance to the work of
God. We're happy to order our calendars and what we do and
where we live for the purposes of God and for the kingdom of
God. And they had working faith, true
faith that worked and they came with gifts and one of those gifts
was gold and you know that's very practical because they would
need that gift Joseph and Mary and the young child because they
although they were living in Bethlehem in a house having been
from Nazareth they'd come to Bethlehem and they were living
there and because of the the the anger of Herod that flared
up in the killing of those children they fled from it They fled from
it to Egypt, an exile in Egypt. How were they going to survive
in Egypt? They needed some money. And these kings brought gold
from the east for them. They worked. Their faith worked
and resulted in practical outcomes. And then where was it? Finally,
where was it? Micah 5 verse 2. The scribes,
those who had the head knowledge quoted it straight away. Bethlehem.
Where was he born? He was born in Bethlehem. You
won't find him in Jerusalem. Go to Bethlehem. you'll find
him there. Go to the house of bread. Why
do I call it that? Because in Ruth chapter 1 and
verse 6 you'll see that Naomi hears that there's bread back
home. Bethlehem is the house of bread.
Go to the house of bread. Go to Bethlehem because there
he who said in John chapter 6 and verse 48, you know what he said,
I am the bread of life. The bread of life was born in
the house of bread. And another way you can look
at it, Bethlehem, the Lehem is Lechem, which is flesh, the house
of flesh. And great is the mystery of godliness.
1 Timothy 3.16 God was manifest in the flesh. God came to the
house of flesh. God was manifest in the flesh,
in the house of flesh. But weren't Mary and Joseph from
Nazareth? Wasn't the one who was to come going to be called
a Nazarene? Yes, he was from Nazareth. And
yes, when they came back from Egypt, they went back to Galilee,
to Nazareth. And he grew up there as an apprentice
carpenter in Nazareth. So how come they're in Bethlehem,
when the Scriptures said he would be born there? How come he grew
up with a northern accent, not speaking as they did in Jerusalem?
So they said, how can this man possibly have any learning? He's
from up north. They don't talk proper up there.
How can he be anybody worth listening to? It was because God had ordained
it all. God had ordained it all. You
see, the Roman Emperor was Caesar Augustus and his heart was, you
know where, in the hands of the living God. And that man, for
some bizarre reason, did what nobody else had ever done before.
He ordered a taxing, a census and a taxing of the people in
the place of their birth. And so Joseph and Mary, for some
bizarre reason, I bet the people were complaining like mad. What
on earth is this government going to get us to do next? And they
had to do, it wasn't something that they usually did, it was
something very rare. And they went to Bethlehem to
be counted to the house of David because they were of the house
and lineage of David. God orders all these things for
his purposes. Oh that he would give us, I trust
he has given many of us, that faith that these wise men, these
magi, these pagan Gentile sorcerers had seen in the Word of the Living
God and bring us by faith to come to the Christ of God for
all our hope for salvation and for eternity. Amen. Well, 197 is about these men.